Is This Biblical?

[Allan]

Allen I mentioned sign gifts of the Apostles because it is relevant to the subject "casting out devils". That is, the casting out of devils originated with the Apostles and seems to be no indication that was passed over into the regular christian crowd of the NT

An argument from silence does not constitute a very strong argument. However what we do have is their disciples (those whom the apostles trained) cast out demons and as I said previously was a practice continued in the Church and spoken of -somewhat- by the early church fathers till around the 4th century (or 300 years later). It was about this time that Replacement Covenant Theology came on the scene declaring that satan has been bound.

in 1 Corinthians casting out demons was not named as a gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is correct because it IS NOT a spiritual gift. It has to do with spiritual authority. The disciples could not do such in the beginning because such authority was not imparted to them untill Jesus granted it to them. They were servant and then became His friends. But we, just as they after his resurrection, became children of God through His blood and ambassadors or representives of Him. An ambassador is endowed with all the authority of the one he represents and speaks on his behalf. Therefore it is exemely important for that person to know the heart and mind of him whom he is representing because he speaks as if he were that very person whom they are reprenting.

Whereas Mark 16:17-18 are the "signs" of those that DO believe, is it true than that the absence of signs (wonders if you prefer) means they DO NOT believe?

No, because it is a general statement not about every single person being involved in each of these or vise-verse but that wonderous things will be noted about those who believe in me. Basically it can be stated thusly:
Amazing things will be said concerning those who believe in me, such as...

Have you even God work, move, or do something that was so amazing that others (non-believers) could only say 'wow' (or whatever word worked for them)? These thi

That's why I think its relevant to take note of the specific ministries to identify their function and attributes. To me an Apostle was unique and should not be viewed as the standard for all christians to function as.

Darren

I agree, but this is not a reference specifically for or to the apostles. It is qualified by 'those who believe', not those whom I called into apostleship, pastorship, or any ministry. It is a general statement of fact.

 

[Darrenss1]

This is correct because it IS NOT a spiritual gift. It has to do with spiritual authority. The disciples could not do such in the beginning because such authority was not imparted to them untill Jesus granted it to them. They were servant and then became His friends. But we, just as they after his resurrection, became children of God through His blood and ambassadors or representives of Him. An ambassador is endowed with all the authority of the one he represents and speaks on his behalf. Therefore it is exemely important for that person to know the heart and mind of him whom he is representing because he speaks as if he were that very person whom they are reprenting.
.

I agree that the Apostles had authority over devils but authority could only be given alongside power; that is simply a way to explain the way in which the sign gifts function. That's the way I see it. I don't think that an Apostle is the standard function for every christian.

Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

As for having authority over demons because we are children of God? I'm not sure about that one? Does authority even work without power? With everything said, there is no reason that casting out demons, healing the sick, wonders (or whatever) can't be directly from the hand of God accessible by prayer.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Now hold up. Who said anything about casting demons out of christians. And if you think that is what is going on in the main, stop believing everything you see on TV

No that is only by 'some' certain charismatic groups. Mostly those who watch TBN and are apart of certain heretical beliefs like the prosperity gospel, and Word of Faith garbage, and name it and claim drivel. However there arer many other christian groups (and even charismatics groups) who do not hold to such nonsense.

Have you ever dealt with a demon possessed person? I have. And both experience and scripture will tell you they are not the same thing. You do not find Paul asking God to remove the demon from the lady. What you do read/see is that Paul commands the demon to leave her. :saint:

It seems to me that demon possession is a debatable topic. I was in a Pentacostal church for 5 years, spoke in tongues, prayed for the sick..etc They taught that christians can be possessed by devils and when they laid hands on the sick they would cast out demons and shout out in "tongues" to bring healing. That isn't an exclusive charismatic teaching by any means, other pentacostals teach/practice it as well. I believe scripture has the final say over experience so I make no attempt to interpret scripture according to my experiences.

One of the reasons I left the pentacostal churches is the way in which demonology is taught and practiced. For example its very easy to explain away situations where people don't get healed/delivered even though they claim God does not want them sick or oppressed. That's probably going in the wrong direction for this thread but I think that subjects like this open up a whole can of worms.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

I agree, but this is not a reference specifically for or to the apostles. It is qualified by 'those who believe', not those whom I called into apostleship, pastorship, or any ministry. It is a general statement of fact.

I semi agree with you.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There are thing mentioned here that already were practiced and there are things totally off topic, like "take up serpents", "drink anything deadly" (I'm sure the thought never crossed their minds).

I have to say, believe, baptised, cast out devils, speak with new tongues, lay hands on the sick; these should be familiar at the time the Lord said it to the disciples and the assumption is that they had some kind of idea what He was referring to. In any case Mark 16 ought to be interpreted in light of the rest of the New Testament writings anyway. No one should ever base a doctrine ("these signs will follow those that believe") on a single verse or passage, all scripture is profitable but it needs to be rightly divided and interpreted together with the rest of the bible.

Darren

 

[annsni]

Do you mean christians ought to cast demons out of other christians Or non-christians? In the pentacostal church I used to attend years back they taught that christians are to "enforce" God's will and in that sense, God was said to "obligate" the faith of the christian but not do anything unless a christian "invited" God into that given situation. So a demon can indwell a christian and will not leave unless they are "told to leave" by the authority of the "name of Jesus" and strangely only if you address the demon by their correct name, lust, rebellion, fear, anger...etc

Anyway, demonology is a complicated mess if you ask me, the bible doesn't make it that confusing.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Darren

I'm racing out right now but want to address this before I forget.

Demons do not indwell Christians but unbelievers. They can, however, influence Christians.

 

[Darrenss1]

Demons do not indwell Christians but unbelievers. They can, however, influence Christians.

Agreed. :thumbsup:

Darren

 

[Jedi Knight]

Brother, these are NOT sign gifts..

There is no gift drinking poisons and not being hurt.
There is no gift of being bitten by a snake and not being hurt.
There is no gift of casting out demons.

Allan I agree with you they are not sign "gifts"...they WERE signS "miracles" to authenticate the ministry of Jesus. Even John the Baptist was given a sign at Jesus baptism to show him this is the one.. Jesus over and over showed signs to PROVE he was the Messiah and the leaders of Israel kept asking for signs"miracles" for conformation....tho they chose to close their minds to it even when Jesus cast out demons before them.

 

[Blessed lady]

Before this thread is closed, I wish to thank everone for their comments and insights on this thread. I certainly have been given alot of scriptures to study and to meditate on, thanks again. yours in CHRIST

 

[Darrenss1]

Before this thread is closed, I wish to thank everone for their comments and insights on this thread. I certainly have been given alot of scriptures to study and to meditate on, thanks again. yours in CHRIST

The one whom the story is about is a 16 year old boy, who is as far as I can see is a christian. I'm sorry the topic turned to debating the topic of casting out demons rather than, should the church deal with the boy by casting out a demon rather than treat him as a christian and show him how to seek the Lord for himself instead of a short term solution that might not even be the case (did he have a demon in the first place??)??

A quote from the article:
"McHaelen said she talked to the boy since the incident and said he's feeling very conflicted and confused in trying to reconcile who he is with his religion.

"He's 16 and having the feelings that he's having, the relationships he's having, and then [he's] being tormented by 'What if I'm going to go to hell because of what I feel and who I am?'" she said."

What was the result of the event? Was a demon cast out? Did the boy suddenly feel alleviated afterwards? Did it work? I would be asking other additional questions. Last year a woman pastor tried to cast Satan out of my wife (my wife had been saved for 4 years) at a women's prayer meeting, it was completely unsolicited, unwelcome and intrusive. Of course I laughed my head off when I heard about it, what result was the lady pastor trying to get by casting out a demon that wasn't there to begin with? I can't help but find it amusing, sorry....

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

The one whom the story is about is a 16 year old boy, who is as far as I can see is a christian.

I found the entire section for that story on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhedHERfcXk

I don't go to a church where anything like that ever happens and never has happened; in fact I know men whom have been in our church for 30 years and have never seen anything remotely resembling a demon manifesting, I don't know why, that kind of thing is all too weird if you ask me. Why do demons seem to manifest regularly in that kind of charismatic church yet in a Baptist church like mine it has never happened? I would never go to a church that is into that kind of thing. Sorry. The question comes to my mind, is that how the Apostles would have cast out demons? Oh dear...

 

[Allan]

I agree that the Apostles had authority over devils but authority could only be given alongside power;

Sorry, not possible. Power does not give one authority nor does one exist outside the other. Power derives it essense from authority. IOW - Police officer is not powerful therefore stands with authority over others. It is his authority that gives his power meaning.

that is simply a way to explain the way in which the sign gifts function.

You're still dealing with these as if it is refering to sign gifts. It isn't.

I don't think that an Apostle is the standard function for every christian.

You are the one who keeps saying this, not me. This has nothing to do with the apostles. The precedinig verse tells us exactly to whom this applies. Those who believe and are baptised... these things shall accompany those who believe. This is not speaking of the apostles.

Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Yes, previously. However none of them were yet saved under the NT Covenant which was ratified by Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. In this New Covenant we are partakers with Christ, we come into Christ (children of God). Prior to this Christ had to bestow this specifically upon certain individuals. After this all believers are called ambassadors, partakers with Christ, one with Him, ect.. Some the disciples nor anyone prior ever had, but afterward was bestowed upon all believers - His authority.

As for having authority over demons because we are children of God? I'm not sure about that one?

Then I would encourage you to look into it.

Does authority even work without power?

Power is derived from authority. If one has no authority, then one has no power. Besides, look up what the word 'power' means - it refers to authority , Just like the word 'name' means. Like in the 'name of Jesus' means 'by the authority of Jesus'.

With everything said, there is no reason that casting out demons, healing the sick, wonders (or whatever) can't be directly from the hand of God accessible by prayer.

Can you show me one instance in scripture, ever (Old or New) were a person prayed to God and God cast out the demon? Like I said, this is a general statement remarking on the fact that these 'wonders'/'signs' are given to authenticate, NOT individauls but both the God (Jesus) and the system of belief that has now come fully on to the scene.

 

[Allan]

It seems to me that demon possession is a debatable topic.

No. Demon possession is a fact. What is debatable is how to cast them out

I was in a Pentacostal church for 5 years, spoke in tongues, prayed for the sick..etc They taught that christians can be possessed by devils and when they laid hands on the sick they would cast out demons and shout out in "tongues" to bring healing. That isn't an exclusive charismatic teaching by any means, other pentacostals teach/practice it as well. I believe scripture has the final say over experience so I make no attempt to interpret scripture according to my experiences.

It sounds like you assume all groups do the same thing in the same ways that your charismatic church did. This is far true. I was in the Assembly of God for 7 years (even training to be a pastor). And yet they never did or taught anything like you describe. And yes, it is somewhat an 'exclusive' teaching. I have quite a few Church of God and Assembly of God pastor friends who I even asked about this. Mainly what I got back was the Church of God pastor stated this is a common view in many of their churches but the Assembly of God pastors stated not so with them. They do not believe it necessary at all to speak in tongues to cast out demons nor to pray for healing but the act of praying in faith or speaking from faith is what is most important.

I agree however that scripture has the final say.

 

[Allan]

I have to say, believe, baptised, cast out devils, speak with new tongues, lay hands on the sick; these should be familiar at the time the Lord said it to the disciples and the assumption is that they had some kind of idea what He was referring to.

Ok, I have got to ask.. how was 'speaking with new tongues' something they were familar with? As I posted already this is theologically see as 1. sign gift of tongues; or 2. Gentiles becoming saved (thus no longer Jewish); or both. All of which transpired only after the Pentacost.

So how did they have the same idea or that it was even common knowledge. Jesus never spoke with 'new tongues'. So you have me confused here.

In any case Mark 16 ought to be interpreted in light of the rest of the New Testament writings anyway.

I agree and that without question.

No one should ever base a doctrine ("these signs will follow those that believe") on a single verse or passage, all scripture is profitable but it needs to be rightly divided and interpreted together with the rest of the bible.

Again, I agree. However who said it was based upon 'one scripture'? I used this 'one' because it states specifically the nature of my point. There are others and church history as well. The disciples of the apostles and their disciples after them and after them cast out demons and can be see in early church writtings for about the next 300 years. it was at about this time when the new doctrine of Replacement Covenant Theology came into being. In this teaching Satan and his demons have all been bound and thus there is no possessions and not demonic working in the world anymore.

However, what do we do the writtings of the church fathers who knew of and practiced casting out of demons, who themselves were taught either by a learner from the apostles themselves or was only a generation away from them?

 

[Allan]

I'm racing out right now but want to address this before I forget.

Demons do not indwell Christians but unbelievers. They can, however, influence Christians.

Amen sister. :thumbs:

 

[Darrenss1]

Sorry, not possible. Power does not give one authority nor does one exist outside the other. Power derives it essense from authority. IOW - Police officer is not powerful therefore stands with authority over others. It is his authority that gives his power meaning.

Power is derived from authority. If one has no authority, then one has no power. Besides, look up what the word 'power' means - it refers to authority , Just like the word 'name' means. Like in the 'name of Jesus' means 'by the authority of Jesus'.
.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Dunamis (power) and Exousia (authority) are 2 separate qualities in relation to the Apostles sign gifts. Dunamis in that context is inherent or intrinsic power, and authority means they can exercise that power according to their own decisions. Its obvious to me that people can have authority but the power is NOT the same as the inherent and intrinsic power of the sign gifts. Are you suggesting that the authority of the child of God is simply that ability to name the name of Jesus, which to me is not inherent power or authority, since by NOT naming the name of Jesus would leave the person powerless. That's how I see it.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Ok, I have got to ask.. how was 'speaking with new tongues' something they were familar with? As I posted already this is theologically see as 1. sign gift of tongues; or 2. Gentiles becoming saved (thus no longer Jewish); or both. All of which transpired only after the Pentacost.

So how did they have the same idea or that it was even common knowledge. Jesus never spoke with 'new tongues'. So you have me confused here.

I simply reasoned that speaking in new tongues (the gift according to 1 cor 14, or whichever way you want to understand it) was known to them according to OT prophetic scriptures, one example being Isaiah 28:11 speaking of tongues being a sign. I thought nothing much of mentioning that, I didn't even realize its a comment worth getting confused over.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Again, I agree. However who said it was based upon 'one scripture'?

Mark 16:17-18 is the only place in the bible that has that exact phrase or something that states those signs mentioned. I stand on what I think that signs following "those that believe" is not a generic statement standardizing all believers for all time and I gave my reasons why.

Darren

 

[Allan]

Mark 16:17-18 is the only place in the bible that has that exact phrase or something that states those signs mentioned. I stand on what I think that signs following "those that believe" is not a generic statement standardizing all believers for all time and I gave my reasons why.

Darren

Ok, However your reasons do not follow the context of the passage. The context states unquestioningly those who believe and are baptised.. and then follows immediately from indenifying the saved (those who believe) to stating 'and' or in addition to.. these things will accompany 'those who believe', which is a direct reference back to those whom are saved.

This statement can not by context mean anyone other than believers in general as it denotes specifically to 'whom' these things follow or accompany - believers/saved and not the disciples.

 

[Allan]

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Dunamis (power) and Exousia (authority) are 2 separate qualities in relation to the Apostles sign gifts. Dunamis in that context is inherent or intrinsic power, and authority means they can exercise that power according to their own decisions.

First, don't rely to heavily upon Thayer because though he, like Strong's gives you a very 'basic' definition, they do not tell you which goes where.

Dunamis, here, does not mean 'intrinsic' or better to come from their very nature. Remember that 'intrinsic' does not just mean 'belonging to a person or thing, but belonging to a person or thng 'by nature' (to have always had it). IOW - innate (born with it) or ones natural abiltiy. Christ's power was intrinsic by nature and thus it came from and flowed out of His very being. For Him to empower the disciples automatically removes the aspect of intrinsic from the issue at hand. Thus what we have is in reality - them being give the capability to do something, and in this case that something is 'miraculous' things.

Authority gives them the legal right or privilage to do such and of itself implies ability (power)..

Its obvious to me that people can have authority but the power is NOT the same as the inherent and intrinsic power of the sign gifts.

Actually the usage and very meaning of the defintions proves jud Sign gift are not intrisic to any individaul expert Christ.

Are you suggesting that the authority of the child of God is simply that ability to name the name of Jesus, which to me is not inherent power or authority, since by NOT naming the name of Jesus would leave the person powerless. That's how I see it.

Darren

I have know idea what you are talking bout,

 

[donnA]

people seem to easily blame their own sin on demons, as if they aren't the ones responsible, demons are. but man sins quite well all on his own, he doesn't need any help.