A Highly Interesting Article

[webdog]

Quote:
Man knows good and evil, and can choose to do either.

A classic statement of libertarian free will.

That's not libertarian free will. That's free agency that is supported by man eating from the TOL (knowing good and evil) and Jesus example of even the wicked not giving their child a stone when they ask for bread (choosing to do something good over evil).

 

[Winman]

candyjd said:

You believe the purpose of salvation was for man to have "free-will" and to chose God with that "free-will".

First, scripture says no one chose God. Everyone turn aside and followed the world.

That is just utterly false. I showed on another thread that man has a free and voluntary will to choose God or not. I will show those verses again.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

It doesn't get any clearer than this, God himself was speaking here and saying if a man bring an offering, he was to do it of his OWN and VOLUNTARY WILL.

Now, I don't care what Calvin or any other preacher says, the Bible shows clearly here from God's own words that a man has his own individual, free and voluntary will. Whether you accept the scriptures or listen to the false teachings of men is up to you.

And this offering was for atonement which was a picture of Christ, so it is directly dealing with salvation.

And there are more verses proving man has a free will and choice.

Lev 19:5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.

Lev 22:19 Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats.

Lev 22:29 And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD, offer it at your own will.

So, to teach that a man does not have his own will is utterly false according to the scriptures.

And that an unsaved person has his own will is also shown.

Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

That a man can choose God or reject him is also shown.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

What are they to choose?, to love the LORD (vs 20) and obey his voice. They could also choose otherwise, which would have meant death.

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Here Joshua told the people to make a choice whether they would serve the LORD, or false gods. And the people chose the LORD.

Josh 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

So again, this teaching that a man does not have a free and voluntary will, and that a man cannot choose for himself whether to worship the true God or to serve false gods is totally unscriptural and clearly proven false by these and many other scriptures.

 

[Winman]

candyjd said:

You believe the purpose of salvation was for man to have "free-will" and to chose God with that "free-will".

First, scripture says no one chose God. Everyone turn aside and followed the world.

That is just utterly false. I showed on another thread that man has a free and voluntary will to choose God or not. I will show those verses again.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

It doesn't get any clearer than this, God himself was speaking here and saying if a man bring an offering, he was to do it of his OWN and VOLUNTARY WILL.

Now, I don't care what Calvin or any other preacher says, the Bible shows clearly here from God's own words that a man has his own individual, free and voluntary will. Whether you accept the scriptures or listen to the false teachings of men is up to you.

And this offering was for atonement which was a picture of Christ, so it is directly dealing with salvation.

And there are more verses proving man has a free will and choice.

Lev 19:5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.

Lev 22:19 Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats.

Lev 22:29 And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD, offer it at your own will.

So, to teach that a man does not have his own will is utterly false according to the scriptures.

And that an unsaved person has his own will is also shown.

Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

That a man can choose God or reject him is also shown.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

What are they to choose, to love the LORD (vs 20) and obey his voice. They could also choose otherwise, which would have meant death.

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Here Joshua told the people to make a choice whether they would serve the LORD, or false gods. And the people chose the LORD.

Josh 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

So again, this teaching that a man does not have a free and voluntary will, and that a man cannot choose for himself whether to worship the true God or to serve false gods is totally unscriptural and clearly proven false by these and many other scriptures.

 

[Me4Him]

Second, scripture says that as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, their wills were enslaved to sin. Therefore, they were no longer able to chose God, but instead, they hide themselves from God.

The "flesh" of man was condemned, "dust to dust", not the "soul", only when it lives long enough to willfully transgress the law does it become condemned, but even then the soul still has the capacities to "repent",

which is one of the requirements prior to actually being saved.

Thirdly, the purpose of salvation was not to have man exercise "free-will", as you have stated.

peace to youraying:

How then would you explain God/Jesus doing everything necesary to save the whole world, not willing any perish, but the majority do perish and only a few saved,

Did God lie about his "Will", his "Grace", Jesus's "death", to cover all sins that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved???

When you place the "blame" on God's "WILL" for "ANYONE" not being saved, you're accussing God of lying.

You have a "FREE WILL" to believe what Calvin said , I have a "FREE WILL" not to believe what Calvin said,

How many people have the "FREE WILL" to believe or not believe what Jesus said??


The evidence that your cistern won't hold water, is manifested here in the "real world". :laugh:

 

[canadyjd]

candyjd said:

"You believe the purpose of salvation was for man to have "free-will" and to chose God with that "free-will".

First, scripture says no one chose God. Everyone turn aside and followed the world."

That is just utterly false. I showed on another thread that man has a free and voluntary will to choose God or not. I will show those verses again.

Romans 3: 10: "as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one: (11) There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; (12) All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one...."

Utterly false? It is exactly what scripture says. Will you admit you are in error after seeing scripture?

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

It doesn't get any clearer than this, God himself was speaking here and saying if a man bring an offering, he was to do it of his OWN and VOLUNTARY WILL.

What version of scripture are you using? Mine has no mention of "voluntary will", or "will" of any kind.

Even if it had, it doesn't say they are chosing God. It only says they are commanded to bring a sacrifice.

You don't believe they were saved by doing sacrifices, do you?

And this offering was for atonement which was a picture of Christ, so it is directly dealing with salvation.

You err, because you don't know scripture. If you read a little further, you'll see the atonement was for unintentional sins. (4:2) There was no offering for intentional sins.

Romans 3:20 "because by the works of the Law, no flesh will be justified in His sight: for through the Law comes knowledge of sin."

And there are more verses proving man has a free will and choice.

Lev 19:5, Lev 22:19, Lev 22:29

More O.T. Law, which justified no one because no one could keep it.

So, to teach that a man does not have his own will is utterly false according to the scriptures.

And that an unsaved person has his own will is also shown.

I have never stated that unsaved person's do not have a will, nor do I teach such.

I have stated, agreeing with Jesus, that every human being's will is enslaved to sin, and therefore is not "free" to choose God without God intervening in their lives.

Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

This verse has nothing to do with salvation, or choosing God: What did you do? Look for the word "will" and just copy it without even looking at the context?

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

What are they to choose?, to love the LORD (vs 20) and obey his voice. They could also choose otherwise, which would have meant death.

Read a little further and you will see that after God tells Moses to command them to obey Him, He tells Moses they will disobey and turn from Him (31:14-21)

So again, this teaching that a man does not have a free and voluntary will, and that a man cannot choose for himself whether to worship the true God or to serve false gods is totally unscriptural and clearly proven false by these and many other scriptures.

All you have posted are the commands of God to worship Him and Him alone. I have never denied God commanded such things.

You assume, however, God would never have commanded it if the people weren't able to obey.

I am telling you that God gave commandments that people couldn't obey, and has held them responsible for disobeying. The entire O.T. Law is just that.

Gal. 3:21 "....for if a Law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (22) But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those believe."

The commandments that God gave speak to His perfect righteousness. It demonstrates His demand that we be perfect, just as He is perfect. But the fact is, we can't do that. So, all the commandments do is reveal to us we are helpless to obey God. They prove we need a savior.

The question then becomes, not what has GodCommanded of us? (which you keep repeating), but how we appropriate the righteousness of Christ.

Scripture is clear, which has been repeatedly shown, that God must intervene in a person's life in order for that to occur. Scripture is also clear that God doesn't intervene in everyone's life unto salvation, but only to those He has chosen.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

What version of scripture are you using? Mine has no mention of "voluntary will", or "will" of any kind.

KJV.

NKJV
'If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.


Other versions omit it.

 

[Winman]

Canadyjd

All of those verses were from the King James Bible. And the offering was made for atonement. A person would lay their hands on the sacrifice which is a picture of our sins being laid on Christ. Then the bullock would be killed and the blood sprinkled round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. This is a picture of Christ pouring out his blood for us, without which there can be no forgiveness of sins.

Do you not understand that when the Jews performed this sacrifice, that they did it in faith of the saviour who was to come?

But that was not the point of presenting those verses. The point was to show that God himself said a man must offer this sacrifice of his "own voluntary will".

Now, I don't know how you can get around that. God made it clear it was to be of man's will, not his, and it must be voluntary, which by definition means of free-will.

So, you can argue all day that man does not have his own free and voluntary will, but the Bible says otherwise. And if your Bible doesn't say that, then maybe you should invest in another Bible.

 

[Winman]

I am telling you that God gave commandments that people couldn't obey, and has held them responsible for disobeying. The entire O.T. Law is just that.

Gal. 3:21 "....for if a Law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (22) But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those believe."

You seem to miss the whole concept of the law. A man was never saved by obeying the law, a man was always saved by faith. The purpose of the law was to expose a man's sin to himself so that he would come to Christ in faith.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[Winman]

Scripture is clear, which has been repeatedly shown, that God must intervene in a person's life in order for that to occur. Scripture is also clear that God doesn't intervene in everyone's life unto salvation, but only to those He has chosen.

That's not what the Bible says.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Now, I don't know what you are going to do with that verse. It clearly says the grace of God that bringeth salvation has (hath) appeared to all men. Now, if this grace is irresistable as Calvinism teaches, then all men would be saved. But we know this is not the case. So, obviously a person can resist this grace.

I'd like to hear how you get around that.

 

[Tom Butler]

I am telling you that God gave commandments that people couldn't obey, and has held them responsible for disobeying. The entire O.T. Law is just that.

And in the New Testament, too.

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."

Some have interpreted "perfect" as mature. Hardly, since God is never described as mature. He is described as perfect, however.

Here, Jesus is settiing the standard as perfection. He is quite aware that such a standard is impossible to obey, yet he commands us to do it even though we can't.

I can't imagine God saying to us, "now I know you can't keep the law perfectly, so I'm going to cut you some slack. You can sin some." No, he demands perfection. That being the case, we're all dead in the water, because breaking one point of the law condemns us. Thanks be to God, the Lord Christ took our punishment for us.

 

[Amy.G]

And in the New Testament, too.

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."

Some have interpreted "perfect" as mature. Hardly, since God is never described as mature. He is described as perfect, however.

Here, Jesus is settiing the standard as perfection. He is quite aware that such a standard is impossible to obey, yet he commands us to do it even though we can't.

Actually, I think the word is complete. Taken in context, Jesus is teaching that we are to love others, even those who do not love us, just as God does. His love is complete (perfect). This chapter is about loving your neighbor as yourself. He is not talking about sinless perfection.

 

[Tom Butler]

Actually, I think the word is complete. Taken in context, Jesus is teaching that we are to love others, even those who do not love us, just as God does. His love is complete (perfect). This chapter is about loving your neighbor as yourself. He is not talking about sinless perfection.

But the principle is still the same, Amy.

Nowhere in the entire Bible do we find God saying it's okay to sin. The OT is filled with the Law. Nowhere does God say it's okay if you don't keep it perfectly. James says if you keep the law almost perfectly, but mess up just one little part, it's the same as if you broke it all.

And Paul says the payoff for one little old sin is death--spiritual death.

God knew, and the Son knew, that no one was capable of keeping the commandments perfectly, yet they were set out as the standard to be obeyed.

So I'm reinforcing canadyjd's point that God has given commands he knows can't be obeyed, yet he still holds us responsible for that disobedience.

 

[Winman]

Yes, Amy is correct. The word perfect in the NT almost always means complete, such as these verses.

1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[Winman]

God knew, and the Son knew, that no one was capable of keeping the commandments perfectly, yet they were set out as the standard to be obeyed.

The law was not given to remove sin, it was given to reveal sin. The law was not given for the purpose that if a man obeyed the law he would earn eternal life. Men were sinners before the law was given, but the law made sin exceeding sinful.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law was temporary from Moses till Jesus came. It was added because of sin (transgressions). Sin was already in the world, and men were sinners before the law came, but the law made sin obvious to all.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law was to bring us unto Christ that we might be saved through faith. It was never intended that man be saved by keeping the law.

Now you are correct, if God demanded that a man obey the law in order to earn eternal life, then yes, God would have been demanding something impossible for man to do. But that is not what the Bible says. The law was to reveal our own sinfullness that we would come for forgiveness to Christ in faith, something every man can do.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Here Paul shows that the law revealed sin. But God's laws are holy, just, and good. And verse 13 shows the purpose of the law was to make sin obvious (exceeding sinful) so that no man could claim he was righteous.

 

[Tom Butler]

Winman, I'm not disagreeing with you.

canadyjd and I are making an entirely different point, to counter an argument by non-Calvinists. That argument is that if we are commanded to repent and believe for salvation, it would be unfair of God to command something without giving them the ability to obey.

The Calvinist argument is that men are unable to come to Christ--and will not want to do so--unless the Holy Spirit changes their hearts and gives them the ability to do so. And that ability is obviously given to his elect. The non-Calvinist is what I wrote in the first paragraph.

Yes, the law is laid out for us to reveal our sinfulness; but it also reveals our inability to perfectly obey it.

Therefore, we have ample evidence that God does require of us things that he knows we cannot give.

 

[webdog]

canadyjd and I are making an entirely different point, to counter an argument by non-Calvinists. That argument is that if we are commanded to repent and believe for salvation, it would be unfair of God to command something without giving them the ability to obey.

I don't think unfair is the best word...justice comes to mind.

 

[Winman]

Winman, I'm not disagreeing with you.

canadyjd and I are making an entirely different point, to counter an argument by non-Calvinists. That argument is that if we are commanded to repent and believe for salvation, it would be unfair of God to command something without giving them the ability to obey.

Well, I disagree with Calvinism. I believe God has given every man the ability to repent and believe on Christ for salvation.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

The Calvinist argues there is no good in man. I agree with this to a great degree. Where I disagree is that the unrighteous and wicked man has the ability to turn or forsake his ways and thoughts. And I think that Isa 55:6-7 clearly show that he can.

And the Bible says God shows the grace that leads to salvation to every man.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Now, if this means exactly what it seems to say, that the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, then you have only two options; Either all men everywhere will be saved, or else it is possible for a man to resist this grace.

So, I believe God gives the unsaved unrighteous man the ability to choose salvation, and he also gives him the ability to reject it.

And this is what the Bible shows.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

He came to his own in verse 11 (the Jews), but many rejected him. So this grace is not irresistable.

Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

 

[Me4Him]

Winman, I'm not disagreeing with you.

canadyjd and I are making an entirely different point, to counter an argument by non-Calvinists. That argument is that if we are commanded to repent and believe for salvation, it would be unfair of God to command something without giving them the ability to obey.

The Calvinist argument is that men are unable to come to Christ--and will not want to do so--unless the Holy Spirit changes their hearts and gives them the ability to do so. And that ability is obviously given to his elect. The non-Calvinist is what I wrote in the first paragraph.

Yes, the law is laid out for us to reveal our sinfulness; but it also reveals our inability to perfectly obey it.

Therefore, we have ample evidence that God does require of us things that he knows we cannot give.

"IF" we have the "Righteousness of Jesus" imputed to "US",

Are we "PREFECT" in the eyes of God???

Don't forget, guilty of "one sin" condemns.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Actually, if the law ends, (which Jesus blotted out/nailing it to the cross) then there is "NO LAW" to condemn us. (those in christ)

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Perfect)

This is where/why the "once saved, always saved" doctrine originates.