Adam not literal????

[Johnv]

No that is what you personally chose to read into it.

You will agree, then, that the bulk of Gen, especially 1-3, is saying "the man" and not "Adam", except where previously noted? If so, then there's no particular disagreement on the topic.

 

[JohnDB]

I would also add that where Adam's name might be "mud" it also is a joke. God has a sense of humor about him as well. Ruddy/redhead were also what that name Adam has a connotation of.

Many of God's favorite men were redheads and ruddy complected. David was one. Some thnk that because of so many of the men in the Bible that were heroes of the Faith like David were what they call Redheads or Ruddy...that Jesus too was a redhead...as much as a Semite can be red.

 

[Carico]

On a different site I am having a conversation with a guy who says that Adam and Eve were not literal people. He says they are representative of humanity in general. He asserts that if his postion is true that nothing is lost theologically.

My question to you guys is.....Is this correct?

What theological difference would there be if "Adam", in Paul's words in Romans, was not a real person?

Help me out here and give some things to bring to this discussion.

Thanks!!!

Ah, no, it's incorrect. God was extremely specific about the lineage of all human beings. He describes the line from Adam to Noah and the descendants of Noah who scattered all over the earth.

 

[Revmitchell]

You will agree, then, that the bulk of Gen, especially 1-3, is saying "the man" and not "Adam", except where previously noted? If so, then there's no particular disagreement on the topic.

Not at all.

 

[Carico]

This topic shouldn't even be debated among Christians. If one doesn't believe in Adam and Eve then he has to make up his own imaginary stories of our ancestors. That means that one worships his imagination instead of God and His word. Suffice it to say, that Adam and Eve were real people.

 

[Marcia]

And there is rythm and meter and alliteration there. Also there are many wordplays as to structure just so that it would fit precisely in that spot.

There were a couple of word changes in Deuteronomy as discovered by the Dead Sea Scrolls...the new changes are preferred as the rythm and meter are restored with these changes and what has been thought to be the original is now seen as wrong and the new changes put in place...in part due to the rythm of the section is restored by these changes. (The age also has something to do with it)

Chiasma is another often used tool inside of the bible...it isn't just something that the politicians use for a tag line. It also is heavily employed in Genesis and the whole Torah. First and second Samuel are written almost completely in this fashion...most of them interlinked with each other.

For this reason it is why (in part) as to why the Torah and other OT books that we have are in tact and not changed. Changes are glaring and obvious when made. The rythm is completely destroyed by these changes. It took a God to write these books...madmen genius aren't dime a dozen.

Nothing you say here shows that Genesis is not narrative or that Adam is not literal. I realize there is poetry in the OT and some in the Torah; however, the structure of Genesis and most of the Torah is narrative. It is just a fact.

 

[JohnDB]

Nothing you say here shows that Genesis is not narrative or that Adam is not literal. I realize there is poetry in the OT and some in the Torah; however, the structure of Genesis and most of the Torah is narrative. It is just a fact.

Of course there was a literal Adam...and he was the first Adam(title/position). There is a whole geneological record showing his children and lineage.

That is what the poetic narrative tells us and shows us.

 

[Marcia]

Of course there was a literal Adam...and he was the first Adam(title/position). There is a whole geneological record showing his children and lineage.

That is what the poetic narrative tells us and shows us.

I'm glad to see you say it's narrative. Poetic? Maybe, but it's not the poetry genre. It is a literal narrative (which does not rule out poetic phrasing or images).

 

[JohnDB]

I'm glad to see you say it's narrative. Poetic? Maybe, but it's not the poetry genre. It is a literal narrative (which does not rule out poetic phrasing or images).

Look at this...

You know the old joke about the scientists who wanted to challenge God by claiming that they could do everything God could...so God asked them to create life...so they stooped down to grab a handful of dirt and God told them to get their own dirt. That Joke comes straight from the very first line of Genesis.

Bara in hebrew is the rough equivalent of a prepositional verb. It suggests and needs an element to make the heavens and the earth out of. Such as a wooden table, a marble table or a stone table does have a material that the table is made out of. When God created the heavens and the earth there isn't a material listed there...it is an incomplete sentence in all reality in Hebrew. ENglish translators make it a complete sentence even though it really isn't...

Hebrew poetry is a little different than much of the stuff you hear of these days...some of the classic writers referred to the language and poetry of the Old Testament. But that is mostly lost these days on many people.

The whole Torah, not one verse being left out, is poetic in nature even if there are poems and songs written inside of the poetry of the narratives.

And in the Hebrew it clearly shows ten chapter divisions...not the 50 we have.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This topic shouldn't even be debated among Christians. If one doesn't believe in Adam and Eve then he has to make up his own imaginary stories of our ancestors. That means that one worships his imagination instead of God and His word. Suffice it to say, that Adam and Eve were real people.

Jawel Mein Colonel! Because we all know questioning the status quo of beliefs is a bad thing. I mean just ask Jan Hus, or Martin Luther.

 

[Johnv]

Jawel Mein Colonel! Because we all know questioning the status quo of beliefs is a bad thing. I mean just ask Jan Hus, or Martin Luther.

Or Galileo, Kepler, Bacon, Copernicus, Turner, Bruno, Napier, Mersenne, Ward, Boyle, Newton, Hitchcock, and the list goes on.

BTW, on a complete sidenote, renowned paleantologist Dr. Robert Bakker is a Pentecostal preacher. I found it interesting that one of the most knowlegeable and foremost experts on dinosaur evolution is a devout Christian and also a preacher.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The whole Torah, not one verse being left out, is poetic in nature even if there are poems and songs written inside of the poetry of the narratives.

No it's not. We have already established this. The whole Torah is a mix of mostly historical narrative and legal code, with a smattering of poetic material here and there. There is little poetic material in the Torah, comparatively speaking.

 

[JohnDB]

But that is your opinion...not fact. I have many sources, friends, and acquaintences that say the exact things that I am saying...including Jewish rabbis who regularly sing/chant the Torah on a weekly basis.

 

[Marcia]

But that is your opinion...not fact. I have many sources, friends, and acquaintences that say the exact things that I am saying...including Jewish rabbis who regularly sing/chant the Torah on a weekly basis.

First of all, rabbis chanting the scripture does not mean the text is entirely poetic.

Secondly, we use the text to decide the genre, not whether people are chanting or singing it.

Thirdly, are these Orthodox Jews? If so, this may be part of the Kabbalistic training, which is not biblical.

Fourth, are they chanting/singing the Psalms or only poetic portions?

 

[JohnDB]

They are orthodox...very much orthodox.
Not of the "glout Kosher" variety but close enough by what I see...(the hyper orthodox variety)
They despise the Kabbalists with a passion and say that they are all wacked in the head doing whatever they please.

When you hear them chant it, it is what they see naturally occurring in the text. They (on occasion) try to recite or read it without chanting/singing it but the text won't allow them to do it so easily and they fall right back into the rythm that the scriptures naturally provide...because it is poetry. There is definate rythm and meter and ryhme and chiasm...a whole host of literary devices.

Anytime God speaks one of the signature things about it is that God always speaks in poetry. Every prophet and spokesman for God spoke in poetry when they were prophesying. Jesus spoke in rhyme all the time. We don't see it because it is recorded in Greek...but if translated back into the Aramaic that it was spoken in it becomes it's natural poetry all over again...and quite pretty too. (The beatitudes are wonderful poetry in Aramaic)

Because Moses wrote the Torah as God led him to write it...It is poetic.

1st and 2nd Samuel is one of the most complicated forms of Chiatic writing ever formed. All of the Chiasm interlinks with each other.

The Torah most especially is written in a poetic fashion that has complexities that are unimaginable to coordinate. All of the other books of the Bible are written based upon what is written there. All of the writing prophets had the thing memorized for a reason...it was poetry that they could recite...it stuck in their heads like a song and they couldn't forget it.

I am kinda perplexed that this is an issue. Every reputable scholar of Hebrew language all have said the saime things...that the Torah is all poetry. I have never heard of someone debating that before. This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone saying that it wasn't. I am kinda dumbfounded that someone would take such a position.

Hebrew is a different language...for those accustomed to English with most of the accents in our language usually being on the first sylable it is difficult to get accustomed to Hebrew where the accent is customarily on the second syllable...with the exception being on the first. Then there are the vowel points...not in the original but they have been added to aide in pronunciation.

 

[Marcia]

They are orthodox...very much orthodox.
Not of the "glout Kosher" variety but close enough by what I see...(the hyper orthodox variety)
They despise the Kabbalists with a passion and say that they are all wacked in the head doing whatever they please.

When you hear them chant it, it is what they see naturally occurring in the text. They (on occasion) try to recite or read it without chanting/singing it but the text won't allow them to do it so easily and they fall right back into the rythm that the scriptures naturally provide...because it is poetry. There is definate rythm and meter and ryhme and chiasm...a whole host of literary devices.

Anytime God speaks one of the signature things about it is that God always speaks in poetry. Every prophet and spokesman for God spoke in poetry when they were prophesying. Jesus spoke in rhyme all the time. We don't see it because it is recorded in Greek...but if translated back into the Aramaic that it was spoken in it becomes it's natural poetry all over again...and quite pretty too. (The beatitudes are wonderful poetry in Aramaic)

Because Moses wrote the Torah as God led him to write it...It is poetic.

You are not talking about genre. The genre of Genesis and most of the Torah is narrative. I don't care about many rabbis chant it.

1st and 2nd Samuel is one of the most complicated forms of Chiatic writing ever formed. All of the Chiasm interlinks with each other.

This has nothing to do with Genesis, or the Torah.

 

[Pastor Larry]

But that is your opinion...not fact. I have many sources, friends, and acquaintences that say the exact things that I am saying...including Jewish rabbis who regularly sing/chant the Torah on a weekly basis.

Then you need to find some sources, friends, and acquaintances who are familiar with the Old TEstament, particularly the Torah. No one who even remotely knows what they are talking about says that the Torah is primarily poetic. It isn't. It is prose ... historical narrative and legal code.

 

[JohnDB]

come and listen to my story about a man named Jed
Poor mountaneer barely kept his family fed
then one day he was shootin up some coon
and up from the ground came a bubblin crude
oil that it, black gold, texas tea

Now this may be narrative...but it is also poetic...come on...I don't see what the big issue with the thing being in poetic style is. Why is this such an issue for you two?

Why would soooooooooooooooooo many people lie about such a thing as this?
It doesn't make it any less miraculous writing...in fact even more so.

Unless the style and manner of writing covering the narrative and legal code offends some other pet theology you are holding on to. Then you are hanging on to some kind of "rules of men" and ignoring the truth.

 

[annsni]

Even if it WERE poetic, would that make it untrue? Would it make it figurative where figurative language is not used?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Now this may be narrative...but it is also poetic...come on...I don't see what the big issue with the thing being in poetic style is. Why is this such an issue for you two?

First, it is a matter of accuracy. Second, it is a matter of hermeneutics. You interpret poetry different than narrative.

Why would soooooooooooooooooo many people lie about such a thing as this?

Exactly. You are calling the vast majority of Hebrew scholars throughout history liars because the nearly unanimous (I know of know dissenters) say that the Torah is a mix of mostly historical narrative and legal code. No one that I am aware of says that it is poetic, and I don't recall you naming any resources.

Every reputable scholar of Hebrew language all have said the saime things...that the Torah is all poetry.

Can you actually name any?

I have never heard of someone debating that before.

It's not debated because virtually no one says it is poetry. There is nothing to debate. It is historical narrative with legal code.

This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone saying that it wasn't.

This is evidence that you don't know what you are talking about. If you have read any basic OT Intros, then you would know that it is historical narrative. If you have even read the Torah you would know that it is primarily poetic.