A question for Southern Baptists

[Johnv]

Can a congregation can keep it's affiliation with the Southern Baptist Convention if it has no deacons?

Yes. SBC churches have compelte autonomy. For the most part the SBC lacks the authority to tell an SBC church how its government/consistory shoudl be setup. Since local church autonomy is a Baptist Distinctive, the aforementioned is generally true of just about all Baptist churches, not just SBC churches. Baptist churches are generally free to setup their own local governance however they see fit.

BTW, I'm an elder in my local church, which is only three years old. We don't have deacons, but the role of deacons is performed by some of the elders. As we get lager, we will eventually have deacons and elders. But right now, our governance is small in number.

 

[rdwhite]

... As we get lager, we will eventually have deacons and elders...

Lager styles are a relatively recent on the global beer scene, when one considers the centuries of ale brewing that predated the production of lagers. The simple difference between a lager and an ale is that the yeast employed for fermentation of a lager works at a cooler temperature and sinks to the bottom of the fermentation vessel, while ale yeasts work at higher temperatures and rise to the top of the vessel. Hence lagers are "bottom fermented" beers.​

I was wondering what churches were doing to attract deacons these days.
:laugh:

 

[ray Marshall]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the misunderstanding is what a deacon is for..

A deacon is to serve the needs of the congregation.. not a church boss.

I know of a church that is small enough for the pastor to meet all the needs, and therefore the church needs no deacon at this point.

The pastor doesn't run the church.. they have a congregational government...

As the church grows they will have more needs than the pastor can meet.
At that point the church should appoint deacons to help the pastor minister.

The OP smells of a power feud.

If the pastor wants complete control, that is horrible.

I think the term, "congregation need to be more affirmed". I do not think that Deacons are appointed by congregations, only by the "Membership."
Congregation I suppose means all people.
Membership means members of the church. Only the Membership have the right to appoint a Member to the office of a deacon.

 

[Oasis]

Tom

I think every church ought to be organized. And every church does have an organization, whether it is formal or informal. In my experience, it is usually the informal organization that really controls the church.

Keep praying for the church and the people. Let God handle the issues through His people. There may be nothing you can do about it from the outside but He can.

That's what my friend is doing Tom. Though it breaks her heart to see this man continue to pervert his position and destroy this congregation she prays that something good will eventually come out of it and that this man will be exposed for what he is.

ybiC,
Kab

 

[Alive in Christ]

"Since you asked, and since Allan has given his answer, let me chime in. The descriptions he attributed to the Universal Church are just as applicable to the local church. Actually, that's all there is. The Universal Church is a nice, but useless, fantasy."

Nonsense. Allan was 100% correct. Both concepts...the universal church and the local church...are completely scriptural.

The "universal church" consists of all the born again christians world wide. We are one body, and are all brothers and sisters in the Lord. We...the universal church...are spreading the good news of the gospel world wide, 24 hours a day, with absolutly no "down time"

No local church could ever accomplish that task.

The universal church...100% legitimate and can do what no local church can.

The local church...100% legitimate and can do what the universal can not do.


:godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Originally Posted by Johnv
... As we get lager, we will eventually have deacons and elders...

Lager styles are a relatively recent on the global beer scene, when one considers the centuries of ale brewing that predated the production of lagers. The simple difference between a lager and an ale is that the yeast employed for fermentation of a lager works at a cooler temperature and sinks to the bottom of the fermentation vessel, while ale yeasts work at higher temperatures and rise to the top of the vessel. Hence lagers are "bottom fermented" beers.

I was wondering what churches were doing to attract deacons these days.

:laugh:



Me...


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Salty]

I think the term, "congregation need to be more affirmed". I do not think that Deacons are appointed by congregations, only by the "Membership."
Congregation I suppose means all people.
Membership means members of the church. Only the Membership have the right to appoint a Member to the office of a deacon.

And I would add "Active Members"
How often has a church had a business meeting of great importance, and dozens of members who have not attended in months all of a sudden show up for a meeting. Our Constitution requires a non-attender to go on he inactive list - and there are certain standards to get back to the active list, based on the reason for initially being on the inactive list.

 

[Tom Butler]

Nonsense. Allan was 100% correct. Both concepts...the universal church and the local church...are completely scriptural.

The "universal church" consists of all the born again christians world wide. We are one body, and are all brothers and sisters in the Lord. We...the universal church...are spreading the good news of the gospel world wide, 24 hours a day, with absolutly no "down time"

No local church could ever accomplish that task.

The universal church...100% legitimate and can do what no local church can.

The local church...100% legitimate and can do what the universal can not do.


:godisgood:

Actually, the universal church spreads no gospel at all. It is unorganized, it is fractured; it sends no missionaries, gives no offerings, teaches no disciple, baptizes no convert.

Only the local congregation is uniquely equipped to carry out the Great Commission; to have true fellowship; to observe the Lord's Supper; to evangelize. You name it.

The Universal Church is confused with the kingdom--made up of subjects of the king.

 

[saturneptune]

Actually, the universal church spreads no gospel at all. It is unorganized, it is fractured; it sends no missionaries, gives no offerings, teaches no disciple, baptizes no convert.

Only the local congregation is uniquely equipped to carry out the Great Commission; to have true fellowship; to observe the Lord's Supper; to evangelize. You name it.

The Universal Church is confused with the kingdom--made up of subjects of the king.

I agree 100%. The local church carries the Gospel to a lost and dying world. There are missionaries all over the world from lots of local churches and denominations. No doubt at times they cooperate in spreading the Gospel. From a Catholic perspective, they are the Universal Church, since all Protestants and Baptists are heretics.

We know from the Scripture, at some future point, the Universal Church (Kingdom) will be comprised of all sorts of creeds and races. This will be the final cleaning of all church rolls.

At the present time, Tom is right. The Universal Church has no function.

Actually, Tom is a very humble

The reason he says what he does about the Universal Church is to deflect attention from himself, since he was just elected Bishop of the Universal Church, West Kentucky Division. Here is a picture of him one day at work.

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree 100%. The local church carries the Gospel to a lost and dying world. There are missionaries all over the world from lots of local churches and denominations. No doubt at times they cooperate in spreading the Gospel. From a Catholic perspective, they are the Universal Church, since all Protestants and Baptists are heretics.

We know from the Scripture, at some future point, the Universal Church (Kingdom) will be comprised of all sorts of creeds and races. This will be the final cleaning of all church rolls.

At the present time, Tom is right. The Universal Church has no function.

Actually, Tom is a very humble

The reason he says what he does about the Universal Church is to deflect attention from himself, since he was just elected Bishop of the Universal Church, West Kentucky Division. Here is a picture of him one day at work.

Thank you for the nice words, saturneptune. You are correct, I am quite humble--and proud of it.:saint: But my humility has been tested since I'm having trouble finding a place for the West Kentucky Division to meet. The church you and I serve wants to know why something that doesn't exist wants to meet. Somebody pointed out that the first meeting of the U-church, West Kentucky Division I called, nobody showed up.

And those who do buy the idea still want to go to their own local, visible, congregations on Sunday. They learned that the U-church doesn't serve coffee and donuts, has no fellowship meals, and has no softball team. And the Presbyterian U-Church members want nothing to do with the Pentecostal U-church members. And the Church of Christ U-Church members want nothing to do with anybody else, since the other U-church members are going to Hell.

It's just sad.

 

[gb93433]

The Universal Church has no function.

An existent church has no function? Jesus said, "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Mt. 28:19, 20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

[saturneptune]

An existent church has no function? Jesus said, "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Mt. 28:19, 20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

That is your take on the verse. What if it is a collection of local churches?

Would you please explain to us in detail how the Universal Church goes and makes disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you? Where are the facitilites, institutions, and people that are used to carry the Gospel to the world by the Universal Church?

So what is your definition of the Universal Church? All true believers in Jesus Christ? From a Catholic perspective, you are not a member of the Universal Church, because we are all pretty much heretics according to them. From their perspective, only Catholics are members of the Universal Church. So who would that be from your perspective? Those you think are saved? So if the Baptist pastor down the road has a different collection of people he thinks are saved, which is the true list of members of the Universal Church.

The bottom line is that you do not know, I do not know, and neither does anyone else know who is in the Universal Church, or, a more accurate description, the Kingdom of God. The Universal Church will be the church one day before the Lord, his children. For now, the work of the Lord is carred out by the local church.

 

[JohnDB]

Autonomy of a church doesn't mean that there isn't going to be assistance to any concerned member of an affilliated SBC convention church.
You can contact them for some advice and counsul on the matter.

Usually any SBC church has a charter and constitution and bylaws that must be followed. Depending upon how ugly the pastor wishes to make this...he can be removed by any member of the congregation. There likely is a constitution that was ratified by the entire congregation at some point. you may not know of it's existance or whereabouts but it will be in the church records somewhere.
It can and will tell you precisely how to remove a pastor, how to elect Deacons and how to appoint them. A pastoral search committee can be set up and etc etc...

 

[gb93433]

Would you please explain to us in detail how the Universal Church goes and makes disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you?

Jesus gave the vision, the command, the example, and the methodology.

Where are the facitilites, institutions, and people that are used to carry the Gospel to the world by the Universal Church?

There are huge churches today that meet at a tree. Facilities are an American ideal we call architectural evangelism. There are missionaries around the world who will not receive any communication from another church and are not a part of any local church or will they have a specific location. Yet they are about God's work. It is very much an underground church and meet illegally sharing their faith illegally.

So what is your definition of the Universal Church? All true believers in Jesus Christ?

Yep

From a Catholic perspective, you are not a member of the Universal Church, because we are all pretty much heretics according to them. From their perspective, only Catholics are members of the Universal Church. So who would that be from your perspective? Those you think are saved? So if the Baptist pastor down the road has a different collection of people he thinks are saved, which is the true list of members of the Universal Church.

Why should I care what false teachers believe. There are Church of Christ churches that were once Baptist chruches too.

The bottom line is that you do not know, I do not know, and neither does anyone else know who is in the Universal Church, or, a more accurate description, the Kingdom of God. The Universal Church will be the church one day before the Lord, his children. For now, the work of the Lord is carried out by the local church.

They RCC likes the people to be uncertain contrary to what scripture teaches. God's work is not only carried about by groups of people but also individuals with God just as Paul did.

1 Jn 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

[Alive in Christ]

Saturn...

"From a Catholic perspective, you are not a member of the Universal Church, because we are all pretty much heretics according to them. From their perspective, only Catholics are members of the Universal Church."

Why would any christian be the least bit concerned about what the false church of Rome says about anything?

"So who would that be from your perspective? Those you think are saved?"

It makes no difference who we *think* are saved. Its who actually ARE born again that matters.

"So if the Baptist pastor down the road has a different collection of people he thinks are saved, which is the true list of members of the Universal Church."

The true list of the universal church is registered in heaven. (Luke 10:20) God knows the identity of every single one of its members, and what they are doing at this very instant, just like He is aware of every sparrow that falls to the ground.

The "universal church" is all of the born again people on earth. Most of them gather regularly somewhere with other believers for edification and group worship.

Then they scatter again...just like all other believers across this earth...and inflitrate their society with the good news of Jesus Christ.

The universal church....thank God for it!

The local assembly...thank God for it as well!

 

[saturneptune]

Jesus gave the vision, the command, the example, and the methodology.

There are huge churches today that meet at a tree. Facilities are an American ideal we call architectural evangelism. There are missionaries around the world who will not receive any communication from another church and are not a part of any local church or will they have a specific location. Yet they are about God's work. It is very much an underground church and meet illegally sharing their faith illegally.

Yes, there are many missionaries that are not working with the support of any church or denomination. The example you cite above has nothing to do with showing how the Universal Church functions. The carrying out of the Gospel above is being carried out by individuals vs local church support. You have still failed to give one example of how the Universal Church is spreading the Gospel.

 

[saturneptune]

Saturn...



Why would any christian be the least bit concerned about what the false church of Rome says about anything?



It makes no difference who we *think* are saved. Its who actually ARE born again that matters.



The true list of the universal church is registered in heaven. (Luke 10:20) God knows the identity of every single one of its members, and what they are doing at this very instant, just like He is aware of every sparrow that falls to the ground.

The "universal church" is all of the born again people on earth. Most of them gather regularly somewhere with other believers for edification and group worship.

Then they scatter again...just like all other believers across this earth...and inflitrate their society with the good news of Jesus Christ.

The universal church....thank God for it!

The local assembly...thank God for it as well!

This totally misses the point. The Universal Church is known by God. (amazing, isnt it). The Universal Church will be the Church at some point in the future. How is the Universal Church spreading the Gospel today? What is its function today? The answer is the same function the local church will have when the Lord returns.

 

[gb93433]

You have still failed to give one example of how the Universal Church is spreading the Gospel.

Think about the basic definition of "church" then you will understand what the church is.

 

[saturneptune]

Think about the basic definition of "church" then you will understand what the church is.

The definition of church is not an organization that never baptized anyone, never held communion, does not have any Biblical offices such as pastor and deacon, and never did one thing towards spreading the Gospel. It is not an organization that never took up an offering or gave to the needy, or sang one song or held one Bible study.

It seems to me that your idea of a church would greatly encourage those who want to sit at home, claim to be a Christian, and forsake assembling with a local group of believers. Their reasoning is, since the Universal Church never did anything, I will follow their example and sit here and do nothing also.

By the way, the Book of Acts is is right before Romans.

 

[gb93433]

It seems to me that your idea of a church would greatly encourage those who want to sit at home, claim to be a Christian, and forsake assembling with a local group of believers.

Do a study on ekklesia. The church does not include what you suggest. They may be religious but they are not the church.

Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."