I've said it before and I'll say it again
"Stupidity is the language of Ignorance".
Otherwise where else would we such far fetched comments like the above come from.
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I've Given Up Dispensationalism...
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
I've said it before and I'll say it again
"Stupidity is the language of Ignorance".
Otherwise where else would we such far fetched comments like the above come from.
I wouldn't be too quick to call Paul who penned Romans 11 "foolish".
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Reading your posts it is clear that you have learned nothing from the Written Word!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Of all people on this forum you are living proof of your statement, which I will quote to aid your understanding: "Stupidity is the language of Ignorance".
Furthermore, it is a fact that: Dispensationalism or Darby/Scofieldism was born out of the same turmoil that produced the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Christian Science, etc..
Dispensationalism was developed by Darby in the early 19th Century and propagated by the Scofield Bible. The Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Christian Science, and other cults also sprang up in the 19th Century. If you can prove otherwise feel free to do so.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I did not call Paul foolish but I would rather call Paul foolish than God a liar. In either case you simply do not understand Scripture. In Romans 11 the Apostle Paul clearly shows that God has only one people the Church in his parable of the olive trees. The dispensationalists deny this truth so they are calling Paul a liar and God, who inspired Paul's writing, a liar. But as I said earlier that is the typical response of some dispensationalists to Scripture that does not agree with their erroneous doctrine.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So you deny the truth of the "good olive tree".
==You will find that is a minority view among mainstream dispensationalists. The majority of dispensationalists who hold that view are in the John Hagee/Zane Hodges camp. In such cases, their double gospel view is just one of several major problems.
==I have never heard a dispensationalist say that God is a liar. Swaimj simply asserted that God has and will keep His promises to Israel. That is not calling God a liar, that is calling God a promise keeper. God will never break His Word and His Word makes it very clear that Israel still has a future (in Christ).
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No...I deny your flawed understanding of it.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then read again what swaimj said [my bold]:
So if God's purpose with Israel does not fit swaimj's interpretation then swaimj concludes that God is a liar. Seems clear to me what swaimj said and what other dispensationalists have said.
I know what was said and I think you are misunderstanding it. The point was that God has promised Israel certain things and will fulfill His promises. If God made promises and did not fulfill them then we would have a very major problem. However that is not the case. God keeps 100% of His promises and warnings. Israel has not been finally rejected. As I said, Israel still has a future in the plan of God and that future is in Christ.
"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. From the standpoint of the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable." -Rom 11:25-29 (see also 30-36).
Israel's situation of unbelief is temporary. There will come a day when Israel will turn back to God and once again be obediant to Him. That is, they will believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. However that is still future. Right now the majority of the nation of Israel is in unbelief. However there will come a day when that will change. A day when they will turn to Christ in faith and thus "all Israel will be saved".
Far from calling God a liar, dispensationalists like Swaimj are proclaiming the wonderful truth that the "the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable". Unlike people God does not promise one thing and then later do something else. God has made promises to Israel and He will fulfill them. You may disagree with the dispensational understanding of how all of that will work out, but that is no reason to make the kind of accusations you are making. I would hope that regardless of our understanding of eschatology, we all agree that God keeps 100% of His promises and warnings.
==No, nobody has said if God does not do things the way they see it He is a liar. What swaimj and others are saying is that God will keep all of His promises. He made the promises, He will fulfill them. If God failed to fulfill His promises then we would have a right to question Him. However that will never happen because God will always keep every promise and warning He has ever made. I don't know anyone who claims to know the whole plan, purpose, and mind of God. Therefore we all have to understand that there are things about God's plans (etc) that we will misunderstand. You may disagree with the dispensational understanding of how God will keep His promises and carry out His plans (timetables, etc), but that is no reason to make the kind of accusations you are making. Nobody is accusing God of being a liar.
_________ Edit to Add___________
swaimj said:
There is nothing Biblically wrong with that paragraph. All swaimj is saying is that God has and will keep all of His promises to Israel. Thus the situation is as I said. You are misunderstanding swaimj's point.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Martin
If dispensationalists misinterpret Scripture that is their problem. However, that is no reason to conclude that God is a liar!
If dispensationalists misinterpret Scripture that is their problem. However, that is no reason to conclude that God is a liar!
Maybe you have not read what I, or others here, said. Nobody is saying that God is a liar. You are pulling that out of nowhere.
pilgrim2009
New Member
These are some good sources.
The Praise of Folly
The Enigmatic Life & Theology of C. I. Scofield
Historian Paul Boyer notes that Scofield is “a towering figure in twentieth-century premillennialism.” The Concise Dictionary of Christianity in America observes that “Scofield's influence on the evangelical / fundamentalist movement of the early twentieth century was enormous.”
But who was this man C. I. Scofield? What was the character of this evangelical giant? Does he deserve the adulation of millions of Christians? As Lyle W. Dorsett laments in his A Passion for Souls: The Life of D. L. Moody: “In many ways, Cyrus I. Scofield is an enigmatic figure.”
Even if you’re familiar with C. I. Scofield and actually know what the “C” and the “I” stand for, and even if you own a dozen copies of the Scofield Reference Bible, you may still be Scofield-deficient. But not any more!
In this work by former dispensationalist David Lutzweiler you will discover “the enigmatic life and theology of C. I. Scofield.” Scofield’s dominant role in evangelicalism renders a knowledge of his life essential for understanding our times. History, after all, is made by people. To understand it, then, one must know what its most influential people did, why they did it, how they did it, and the consequences — both intended and unintended — of their work.
Come and join master detective David Lutzweiler in his historical research uncovering the enigmatic Scofield. The title of this book is taken from the satire by Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam (published in 1515). In that book he has the character Folly give an oration wherein he praises self-deception. Tragically, large portions of evangelicalism are engaged in praise of folly.
About the Author
David Lutzweiler is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute (1956) and Wheaton College (B.A. in Bible and Theology, 1960). He served on the editorial staff of The Alliance Witness, official organ of The Christian and Missionary Alliance, from 1962 to 1964, at the invitation of Dr. A. W. Tozer. From 1964–72 he was Administrative Assistant to Dr. Spiros Zodhiates at AMG International.
Get this DVD to.
LATE GREAT PLANET CHURCH (DVD)
The Rise of Dispensationalism
The Late Great Planet Church (DVD) is a welcome and much-needed rebuke to the error of dispensationalism which, for the last 180 years, has misrepresented the Scripture’s teaching on the unity of God’s purpose in the church. The historical facts presented reveal the fallacious foundation of dispensationalism’s hermeneutic and theology. Dispensationalism is serious theological error and NiceneCouncil.com ought to be thanked for its diligent work in exposing the history of this movement.” -- Rev. Stephan R. Van Eck, Minister of Congregational Life, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Many Christians today read their Bibles through the lens of pop-prophecy books like The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series. They naively believe the prophetic schemes and theological presuppositions expressed in these and other fictional writings represent the doctrinal positions that Christians down through the centuries have embraced. However, that is far from the truth.
Volume One of The Late Great Planet Church: The Rise of Dispensationalism is the first documentary of its kind. It exposes this erroneous system of thought as breaking continuity with history --- and even the very Word of God. In this first volume we will examine the beginnings, beliefs, and motivations of this innovative movement by focusing on its relatively recent development, stormy history and its most influential proponents.
Hosted by Jerry Johnson, President of NiceneCouncil.com and The Apologetics Group, this documentary features pastors, theologians, and historians, who at one time were strongly committed dispensationalists. Several of these men even trained at dispensational academic institutions before abandoning the system. They have since rejected this system as thoroughly unbiblical, viewing it as a stumbling block to the Church and a distraction from the Great Commission.
Featuring
Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D. Gary DeMar, Ph.D.
George Joseph Gatis, Ph.D., Th.D., J.D. Tom Ascol, Ph.D.
Kenneth G. Talbot, Ph.D., Th.D. Tom Nettles, Ph.D.
R. Fowler White, Ph.D. E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D.
Rev. Michael Leach, M.Div. David Lutzweiler, B.A. Theo.
“NiceneCouncil.com’s newest production The Late Great Planet Church: The Rise of Dispensationalism is to be commended for drawing attention to the early development of today's phenomenon called dispensationalism. I encourage every Christian to view this important documentary.” -- Dave MacPherson, author, The Rapture Plot
Also other good sources.
Defeating the Myth-Storians (DVD)
In this three-part video series, Joel McDurmon takes you back to the first-century church to give you an understanding of the attacks on the gospel from the prevailing pagan mystery religions of the day. Joel presents the life and writings of the apostles, the early church fathers, and other compelling evidences, in defending the person of Christ and dismantling both old and new myths and their myth-storians.
PART 1: The Myth-storians in Action
PART 2: Bible History: Fact or Fiction?
PART 3: Man to Man: Defending the Faith Against Mere Myths
"This is an outstanding series that will enable anyone to better "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints"--
Nicene Council
Liberty or Tyranny (DVD)
Unwrapping History to Save the Future
America is caught between two rival faiths -- Christianity and Secularism. Christianity teaches that God is sovereign over all His creation. Secularism teaches that man is sovereign over all that has evolved up to this moment in time. The winning faith will determine the future of America and whether or not your grandchildren will live in a society that is free or oppressive. Lessons learned from history have shown that when a nation removes God from public life, immorality and lawlessness abound. Inevitably, the State will be forced to pass more laws to prevent the breakdown of society. Will we learn from these lessons? Will men reject the freedom promised by obedience to God's Law or will they become slaves to a tyrannical State?
Robert Winthop, former Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, once said, "Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet. Join Chief Justice Roy Moore & Gary DeMar as they present lessons from history and issue a wake-up call to Christians in America. Discover why America's future is in the hands of you and your children.
Will you choose liberty or tyranny?
House Divided: The Break-up of Dispensational Theology
Drs. Kenneth L. Gentry & Greg L. Bahnsen
The year 2001 brought a new millennium: the seventh after the creation and the third after the birth of Jesus Christ. This is the greatest opportunity for evangelism in world history. In less than a dozen years, the world will change drastically. Will it be for the better or the worse?
Dispensationalist automatically answer: "Worse!" But their system is in deep trouble. The year 1988 marked the beginning of dispensationalism's "great tribulation": Why? Because the Rapture did not take place. It was supposed to (actually, it should have taken place in 1981:1988 - 7 = 1981). The nation of Israel was founded in May of 1948. Forty years constitutes one generation in the Bible, and 1988 was supposed to complete "the generation of the fig tree." One dispensational author even wrote a book in which he gave the world 88 reasons why the Rapture would take place in 1988. According to the author over four million copies were printed. People believed!
It didn't happen. Fooled again. And a lot of Christians vowed: Never again!
Ironically, this event may have marked the beginning of the current reformation sweeping many Bible believing denominations. Spokesmen for the dispensational camp in 1988 concluded that dispensationlism's forty-year tactic of the academic black-out could no longer work. They would have to respond publicly to the criticisms of the dispensationalist system. They would have to refute the numerous claims for many Reformed camps.
Four dispensational authors responded as an unofficial team. Their three books appeared in rapid succession: Dominion Theology: Blessing or Curse?, by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice; Whatever Happened to Heaven?, by Dave Hunt; and The Road to Holocaust, by Hal Lindsey. The arguments of all three books are answered in detail and exposed by Kenneth L. Gentry and Greg L. Bahsen in this book - House Divided: The Break-up Of Dispensational Theology.
What House Divided demonstrates is that dispensational theology has now been shattered by its own defenders. They are not willing to defend the original system and their drastic modifications have left it a broken shell. They are also deeply divided among themselves on the crucial questions of biblical interpretation and social activism. In short, today's defenders of dispensationalism "destroyed the system in order to save it." No one has attempted to put this shattered theological system back together. No one will even outline its main points.
Is it any wonder why the OP left the system of dispensationalism?
I can say since I left the system itself, and started claiming the promises that C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin says dont belong to Christians,my life has been so much more blessed.
Praise God for the truth.
The Praise of Folly
The Enigmatic Life & Theology of C. I. Scofield
Historian Paul Boyer notes that Scofield is “a towering figure in twentieth-century premillennialism.” The Concise Dictionary of Christianity in America observes that “Scofield's influence on the evangelical / fundamentalist movement of the early twentieth century was enormous.”
But who was this man C. I. Scofield? What was the character of this evangelical giant? Does he deserve the adulation of millions of Christians? As Lyle W. Dorsett laments in his A Passion for Souls: The Life of D. L. Moody: “In many ways, Cyrus I. Scofield is an enigmatic figure.”
Even if you’re familiar with C. I. Scofield and actually know what the “C” and the “I” stand for, and even if you own a dozen copies of the Scofield Reference Bible, you may still be Scofield-deficient. But not any more!
In this work by former dispensationalist David Lutzweiler you will discover “the enigmatic life and theology of C. I. Scofield.” Scofield’s dominant role in evangelicalism renders a knowledge of his life essential for understanding our times. History, after all, is made by people. To understand it, then, one must know what its most influential people did, why they did it, how they did it, and the consequences — both intended and unintended — of their work.
Come and join master detective David Lutzweiler in his historical research uncovering the enigmatic Scofield. The title of this book is taken from the satire by Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam (published in 1515). In that book he has the character Folly give an oration wherein he praises self-deception. Tragically, large portions of evangelicalism are engaged in praise of folly.
About the Author
David Lutzweiler is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute (1956) and Wheaton College (B.A. in Bible and Theology, 1960). He served on the editorial staff of The Alliance Witness, official organ of The Christian and Missionary Alliance, from 1962 to 1964, at the invitation of Dr. A. W. Tozer. From 1964–72 he was Administrative Assistant to Dr. Spiros Zodhiates at AMG International.
Get this DVD to.
LATE GREAT PLANET CHURCH (DVD)
The Rise of Dispensationalism
The Late Great Planet Church (DVD) is a welcome and much-needed rebuke to the error of dispensationalism which, for the last 180 years, has misrepresented the Scripture’s teaching on the unity of God’s purpose in the church. The historical facts presented reveal the fallacious foundation of dispensationalism’s hermeneutic and theology. Dispensationalism is serious theological error and NiceneCouncil.com ought to be thanked for its diligent work in exposing the history of this movement.” -- Rev. Stephan R. Van Eck, Minister of Congregational Life, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Many Christians today read their Bibles through the lens of pop-prophecy books like The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series. They naively believe the prophetic schemes and theological presuppositions expressed in these and other fictional writings represent the doctrinal positions that Christians down through the centuries have embraced. However, that is far from the truth.
Volume One of The Late Great Planet Church: The Rise of Dispensationalism is the first documentary of its kind. It exposes this erroneous system of thought as breaking continuity with history --- and even the very Word of God. In this first volume we will examine the beginnings, beliefs, and motivations of this innovative movement by focusing on its relatively recent development, stormy history and its most influential proponents.
Hosted by Jerry Johnson, President of NiceneCouncil.com and The Apologetics Group, this documentary features pastors, theologians, and historians, who at one time were strongly committed dispensationalists. Several of these men even trained at dispensational academic institutions before abandoning the system. They have since rejected this system as thoroughly unbiblical, viewing it as a stumbling block to the Church and a distraction from the Great Commission.
Featuring
Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D. Gary DeMar, Ph.D.
George Joseph Gatis, Ph.D., Th.D., J.D. Tom Ascol, Ph.D.
Kenneth G. Talbot, Ph.D., Th.D. Tom Nettles, Ph.D.
R. Fowler White, Ph.D. E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D.
Rev. Michael Leach, M.Div. David Lutzweiler, B.A. Theo.
“NiceneCouncil.com’s newest production The Late Great Planet Church: The Rise of Dispensationalism is to be commended for drawing attention to the early development of today's phenomenon called dispensationalism. I encourage every Christian to view this important documentary.” -- Dave MacPherson, author, The Rapture Plot
Also other good sources.
Defeating the Myth-Storians (DVD)
In this three-part video series, Joel McDurmon takes you back to the first-century church to give you an understanding of the attacks on the gospel from the prevailing pagan mystery religions of the day. Joel presents the life and writings of the apostles, the early church fathers, and other compelling evidences, in defending the person of Christ and dismantling both old and new myths and their myth-storians.
PART 1: The Myth-storians in Action
PART 2: Bible History: Fact or Fiction?
PART 3: Man to Man: Defending the Faith Against Mere Myths
"This is an outstanding series that will enable anyone to better "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints"--
Nicene Council
Liberty or Tyranny (DVD)
Unwrapping History to Save the Future
America is caught between two rival faiths -- Christianity and Secularism. Christianity teaches that God is sovereign over all His creation. Secularism teaches that man is sovereign over all that has evolved up to this moment in time. The winning faith will determine the future of America and whether or not your grandchildren will live in a society that is free or oppressive. Lessons learned from history have shown that when a nation removes God from public life, immorality and lawlessness abound. Inevitably, the State will be forced to pass more laws to prevent the breakdown of society. Will we learn from these lessons? Will men reject the freedom promised by obedience to God's Law or will they become slaves to a tyrannical State?
Robert Winthop, former Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, once said, "Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet. Join Chief Justice Roy Moore & Gary DeMar as they present lessons from history and issue a wake-up call to Christians in America. Discover why America's future is in the hands of you and your children.
Will you choose liberty or tyranny?
House Divided: The Break-up of Dispensational Theology
Drs. Kenneth L. Gentry & Greg L. Bahnsen
The year 2001 brought a new millennium: the seventh after the creation and the third after the birth of Jesus Christ. This is the greatest opportunity for evangelism in world history. In less than a dozen years, the world will change drastically. Will it be for the better or the worse?
Dispensationalist automatically answer: "Worse!" But their system is in deep trouble. The year 1988 marked the beginning of dispensationalism's "great tribulation": Why? Because the Rapture did not take place. It was supposed to (actually, it should have taken place in 1981:1988 - 7 = 1981). The nation of Israel was founded in May of 1948. Forty years constitutes one generation in the Bible, and 1988 was supposed to complete "the generation of the fig tree." One dispensational author even wrote a book in which he gave the world 88 reasons why the Rapture would take place in 1988. According to the author over four million copies were printed. People believed!
It didn't happen. Fooled again. And a lot of Christians vowed: Never again!
Ironically, this event may have marked the beginning of the current reformation sweeping many Bible believing denominations. Spokesmen for the dispensational camp in 1988 concluded that dispensationlism's forty-year tactic of the academic black-out could no longer work. They would have to respond publicly to the criticisms of the dispensationalist system. They would have to refute the numerous claims for many Reformed camps.
Four dispensational authors responded as an unofficial team. Their three books appeared in rapid succession: Dominion Theology: Blessing or Curse?, by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice; Whatever Happened to Heaven?, by Dave Hunt; and The Road to Holocaust, by Hal Lindsey. The arguments of all three books are answered in detail and exposed by Kenneth L. Gentry and Greg L. Bahsen in this book - House Divided: The Break-up Of Dispensational Theology.
What House Divided demonstrates is that dispensational theology has now been shattered by its own defenders. They are not willing to defend the original system and their drastic modifications have left it a broken shell. They are also deeply divided among themselves on the crucial questions of biblical interpretation and social activism. In short, today's defenders of dispensationalism "destroyed the system in order to save it." No one has attempted to put this shattered theological system back together. No one will even outline its main points.
Is it any wonder why the OP left the system of dispensationalism?
I can say since I left the system itself, and started claiming the promises that C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin says dont belong to Christians,my life has been so much more blessed.
Praise God for the truth.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Some are saying in effect that if their interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, though they do not admit to that possibility, then God did not keep His promises and, therefore, God is a liar. Thus they are claiming to haveinfallibly knowledge of the mind of God. Something that even the writers of the Revelation of God did not claim. I assume you are aware of that fact.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Jews thought they had infallible knowledge of the mind of God. It turns out that they did not. Some on this Forum who believe they have infallible knowledge of the mind of God would do well to read the following passage, particularly Verse 4.
Romans 3:1-4
1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
So I will say to some on this Forum who are too quick to connect the word liar with God that they need instead to connect the name liar with man: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar
Romans 3:1-4
1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
So I will say to some on this Forum who are too quick to connect the word liar with God that they need instead to connect the name liar with man: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar
Old Regular, it is not a matter of a theological interpretation, it is a matter of a simple concept. God made promises to the fathers. If he does not keep them, he is a liar. However, the book of Hebrews says that God CANNOT lie, therefore, I do not think that anyone on this board holds that God is a liar. I am certainly not calling God a liar. Your inability to understand such a simple concept and such a simple argument really calls into question your ability to understand more complicated matters.
pilgrim2009
New Member
God done exactly as He said.The promise of the land came to pass and it was upon conditions {i.e.IF`s}.The following sums it up.
Deuteronomy 8:18-20
"But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."
The Covenant Promises of the literal land of Canaan to that nation Israel were never unconditional, and those theologians who make such claims only show a real lack of knowledge of both the scriptures, and the promises.
The land given to Israel was conditional, and God made that very clear to them many times. He also made it clear that He is no longer obligated, and has fulfilled His promises to them. It's only the indoctrinated teachers of Premillennialism (having become more politically minded than biblically minded) who have decided that God hasn't kept all of His promises of what He sware to their fathers. In their arrogance, they insist that God hasn't given them rest, peace, nor delivered their enemies into their hand as He promised. But when we search the scriptures diligently, to see what God has to say, we see that the truth is a bit different from man's theologies.
Joshua 21:43
"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their Fathers; And they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
There Failed Not Ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; All Came To Pass".