What is a just alternative for people who sin against God's righteousness?
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Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.
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It seems we are mired down in the I'm right, you're wrong pit. I don't think any of us are going to change our minds, so I will not continue to post the same scripture again and again.
I would like to know how you guys (Cal's) interpret what Jesus said about being "lifted up as the serpent was lifted up". When an Israelite looked upon the serpent and was healed, had God regenerated him first? Was he "able" to look upon the serpent because God first gave him faith? Was the person who looked upon the serpent elected to be saved? Were the ones who wouldn't look upon it the ones who God passed over?
I would like to know how you guys (Cal's) interpret what Jesus said about being "lifted up as the serpent was lifted up". When an Israelite looked upon the serpent and was healed, had God regenerated him first? Was he "able" to look upon the serpent because God first gave him faith? Was the person who looked upon the serpent elected to be saved? Were the ones who wouldn't look upon it the ones who God passed over?
But the reason for this is the unwillingness to look at the totality of what Scripture actually says. Your side pulls out a few words or verses but fails to look at it all.
That was physical healing. It took no regeneration.
Your faulty foundation has led to questions that don't really make sense.
Jesus is likening his crucifixion to what happened there, but he is not saying they are the same. It is "like" or "as." The point is that people must look to Jesus for salvation.
Now who looks and why? That's what I was asking Darren earlier. He hasn't answered.
Why do some people rebel, reject, disobey, etc, and some people accept? What is the difference?
I have asked that same question many times I did get some answers a while back but those answers only pushed the question back another level.
Answers like "this particular circumstance" but of course why did that circumstance happen to you and not to others.
The proper answer to your question is the thing that ties all of these seemingly "free will verses" with the verses that teach God's sovereignty.
Martin said:
Well Martin, Jesus also said he would draw all men to him.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Of course, you will wiggle around this somehow. But Jesus himself said he would draw all men. And the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
This is not just any grace, it is the grace that brings salvation. So according to Calvinism, this grace is irresistable and all men would be saved. But we know that is not true.
So, the doctrine of Irresistable Grace is false as proven by scripture.
Amy, these guys are going to simply close their eyes and ignore any scripture that disagrees with their false doctrine. Yourself, many others and myself have presented dozens of scriptures that clearly disagree with what they believe. They simply wrest the meaning to suit themselves.
Well Martin, Jesus also said he would draw all men to him.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Of course, you will wiggle around this somehow. But Jesus himself said he would draw all men. And the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
This is not just any grace, it is the grace that brings salvation. So according to Calvinism, this grace is irresistable and all men would be saved. But we know that is not true.
So, the doctrine of Irresistable Grace is false as proven by scripture.
Amy, these guys are going to simply close their eyes and ignore any scripture that disagrees with their false doctrine. Yourself, many others and myself have presented dozens of scriptures that clearly disagree with what they believe. They simply wrest the meaning to suit themselves.
Actually he didn't. He said he would draw "all" to him. In the context (if you actually read it), it is about Greeks wanting to see Jesus. So when he said he would draw all to himself, it is the context of all nations ... both Jews and Greeks. These things are sometimes easily missed by people looking to support a preconceived view, and it is why it is imperative that the text be studied in its context.
I think many of us have proven that we are in fact unwilling to do that. We are willing to look at the Scripture. Your side has some that are willing to look at the Scripture, but many are not. They trot out proof texts without argumentation or support.
I can't speak for others, and I don't pretend to read everything here, but I have yet to see any Scripture, much less dozens that disagree with what I believe. I am willing to listen, but you will have to come with more than you have so far.
I have posted this before, but I will do so one more time.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
It can't be more clear. If Jesus statement of why people reject Him doesn't satisfy you, then you need to pray and ask Him.
And Dale, you use Romans 9:17 in your signature to argue salvation, ignoring the many scriptures that show a man hardens his own heart.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
2 Kings 17:13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.
14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God.
Calvinists believe God commands men to turn from their evil ways as shown here, and then hardens their hearts so that they cannot obey. How messed up is that? They believe it is God's will that men disobey God's will. :laugh:
2 Chron 36:13 And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.
Neh 9:16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, 17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Neh 9:29 And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them; ) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
Jer 7:25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
Jer 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.
Mark 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
This was Jesus speaking to the apostles!
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
What good would it do to warn someone of having an evil heart of unbelief if they have no control over it? And vs. shows it is the deceitfulness of sin that causes a person to harden their heart.
Deut 15:7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
What?? Why would God command men not to harden their hearts if it is God himself who hardens a man's heart? A man has no control over this whatsoever according to Calvinism.
1 Sam 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
What? According to the Calvinists God hardened Pharoah's heart. This verse says different.
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Again, this makes no sense if it is God who hardens a man's heart.
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
All were commanded not to harden their hearts, some did, some did not.
So, here are numerous scriptures that show that a man can harden his own heart in disobedience to God's will.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
2 Kings 17:13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.
14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God.
Calvinists believe God commands men to turn from their evil ways as shown here, and then hardens their hearts so that they cannot obey. How messed up is that? They believe it is God's will that men disobey God's will. :laugh:
2 Chron 36:13 And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.
Neh 9:16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, 17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Neh 9:29 And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them; ) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
Jer 7:25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
Jer 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.
Mark 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
This was Jesus speaking to the apostles!
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
What good would it do to warn someone of having an evil heart of unbelief if they have no control over it? And vs. shows it is the deceitfulness of sin that causes a person to harden their heart.
Deut 15:7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
What?? Why would God command men not to harden their hearts if it is God himself who hardens a man's heart? A man has no control over this whatsoever according to Calvinism.
1 Sam 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
What? According to the Calvinists God hardened Pharoah's heart. This verse says different.
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Again, this makes no sense if it is God who hardens a man's heart.
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
All were commanded not to harden their hearts, some did, some did not.
So, here are numerous scriptures that show that a man can harden his own heart in disobedience to God's will.
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Brian Bosse
Member
Hello Winman,
The word translated "all men" in John 12:32 is the accusative form of the Greek word πας (pas). The domain and/or scope of this word is determined by the context. For example, when you read in Acts 19:10 that all (the accusative form of the Greek word πας) the inhabitants of Asia heard the word of the Lord, it seems likely what is not meant is that every last single individual heard the word of the Lord. Rather, Luke was using hyperbole to speak of a very large number of those in Asia who heard the word of the Lord. When you read in Romans 10:12 you find the same Greek word used twice (once in the accusative and once in the genitive). Again, Paul's use of the word here is not in the sense of every last individual, but rather in the sense of all kinds of men - both Jews and Gentiles.
So, here is the point, just because πας is used in John 12:32, one cannot just assume that it refers to every last human being. Language is not that rigid. To simply quote John 12:32 and then throw down the gavel is to do so prematurely. One must consider the larger context. The passage in John 12:27-36 comes right on the heels of John 12:20-26. This strange little section probably has something to say about how one should understand John 12:32.
Sincerely,
Brian
The word translated "all men" in John 12:32 is the accusative form of the Greek word πας (pas). The domain and/or scope of this word is determined by the context. For example, when you read in Acts 19:10 that all (the accusative form of the Greek word πας) the inhabitants of Asia heard the word of the Lord, it seems likely what is not meant is that every last single individual heard the word of the Lord. Rather, Luke was using hyperbole to speak of a very large number of those in Asia who heard the word of the Lord. When you read in Romans 10:12 you find the same Greek word used twice (once in the accusative and once in the genitive). Again, Paul's use of the word here is not in the sense of every last individual, but rather in the sense of all kinds of men - both Jews and Gentiles.
So, here is the point, just because πας is used in John 12:32, one cannot just assume that it refers to every last human being. Language is not that rigid. To simply quote John 12:32 and then throw down the gavel is to do so prematurely. One must consider the larger context. The passage in John 12:27-36 comes right on the heels of John 12:20-26. This strange little section probably has something to say about how one should understand John 12:32.
Sincerely,
Brian
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And there you have it. A proper interpretation of scripture is impossible unless I can read Greek and understand Greek grammatical rules. No wonder my theology has holes big enough to drive a truck through as Pastor Larry said. :BangHead:
I agree. But that doesn't tell us why they change. The question is: What changes them from loving darkness to loving light?
Amy, I hate to see you dodging these things. Why not just interact with what the Scriptures actually say?
No it doesn't. REad John 3 again. It likens the lifting up of the serpent to the lifting up of Christ.
Yes, correct. To lift up either the serpent or Christ takes no regeneration at all, whether before or after faith.
Not at all. By comparing Scripture to Scripture, you can arrive at a proper interpretation. Again, just look at the context. It is about Greeks and Jews as groups, not about individuals.
Brian
I hope I was not offensive in that last post, I did not mean it that way.
You said something the Calvinists should consider.
I agree with you. You cannot take a single verse out of context, or sometimes several verses out of context. You have to look at scripture in the whole of scripture.
Take for instance Pharoah of Egypt. It is true that there are many verses where it says God hardened Pharoah's heart, a good argument for Calvinists. But there are also many that say Pharoah hardened his own heart.
1 Sam 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Now, this scripture clearly says Pharoah and the Egyptians hardened their own heart. And I showed many such verses. And if you examine these verses and the context you will always see that it is sin that causes a man to harden his own heart, not God.
Calvinists argue that man does not have free will, when experience shows otherwise. And that a person can harden his heart, not just against God, but his fellow man is evident as well. When a man abandons his family to run off with another woman, I would say that is an example of a man hardening his own heart. That is certainly not God's will for a married family man. Yet, we see it everyday.
The point is, there are many scriptures that say a man does indeed have control over his own will and heart. And this agrees with experience. On the other hand, we have no evidence of a man's will and heart being controlled from outside himself.
The beliefs of Calvinism cannot be true simply because they make God contradict his own self. They argue that it is God's will that a man disobey God's will. This is totally nonsensical to anyone who really thinks about it.
But those who believe in free will as I do have no contradictions. God is not contradicting himself, and real experience is not contradicted either.
Calvinists find themselves faced with many, many scriptures that contradict what they believe and must be wrested to accomodate their doctrine. Those who believe in free will do not.
For instance, I can harden someone's heart. I have found through experience that when you are in disagreement with someone that you have to be careful. If you make that person angry, they will harden themselves against you, and become very obstinate, even if in their heart they know you are correct and they are wrong. People do not like to be shown they are wrong, it injures their pride. So, sometimes you have to lay off and let them think about it for awhile. If you persist to argue your case, they simply throw up a wall and will not listen to anything you say. I am sure you have experienced this yourself. So, you harden their hearts against you. But in the end, they are truly the one who hardens their own heart because of pride.
I once had an argument with my wife over the lyrics of a song. I was correct and she was wrong. But I laughed at her which embarrased her. She became very angry and would not admit she was mistaken. I insisted I was right, she insisted she was right. Sounds silly, but it turned into a very heated argument. She literally would not say one word to me for several weeks.
I should not have laughed at her. I should not have persisted to argue I was right even though I was. I injured her pride. And by persisting I made her extremely angry at me. There was no way she was going to admit she was in error. So, in this case I hardened her heart. But she also hardened her own heart.
Now, if you can understand this very normal occurance from real life, now you can understand these scriptures. God did not make Pharoah's heart incapable of being soft, of listening to God. In fact, if you read the story, at one time Pharoah admitted he had sinned.
Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
But Pharoah was not being sincere here. He simply wanted Moses to end the plague. And Moses knew this.
Exo 9:30 But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.
And sure enough:
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Now, how did God harden Pharoah's heart here? By ending the plague. The Lord actually showed grace to Pharoah. But Pharoah never intended to repent, he just wanted the plague to end, and as soon as he saw it was over, he hardened his own heart and would not let the children of Israel go.
And we see that everyday. We see some criminal cry to a judge and swear he will not commit crime if the judge will give him a break and let him go. And as soon as the judge lets him go, he goes right out and commits crime again. So experience shows a man has control over his own will and the attitudes of his heart. And this squares with scripture.
I hope I was not offensive in that last post, I did not mean it that way.
You said something the Calvinists should consider.
I agree with you. You cannot take a single verse out of context, or sometimes several verses out of context. You have to look at scripture in the whole of scripture.
Take for instance Pharoah of Egypt. It is true that there are many verses where it says God hardened Pharoah's heart, a good argument for Calvinists. But there are also many that say Pharoah hardened his own heart.
1 Sam 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Now, this scripture clearly says Pharoah and the Egyptians hardened their own heart. And I showed many such verses. And if you examine these verses and the context you will always see that it is sin that causes a man to harden his own heart, not God.
Calvinists argue that man does not have free will, when experience shows otherwise. And that a person can harden his heart, not just against God, but his fellow man is evident as well. When a man abandons his family to run off with another woman, I would say that is an example of a man hardening his own heart. That is certainly not God's will for a married family man. Yet, we see it everyday.
The point is, there are many scriptures that say a man does indeed have control over his own will and heart. And this agrees with experience. On the other hand, we have no evidence of a man's will and heart being controlled from outside himself.
The beliefs of Calvinism cannot be true simply because they make God contradict his own self. They argue that it is God's will that a man disobey God's will. This is totally nonsensical to anyone who really thinks about it.
But those who believe in free will as I do have no contradictions. God is not contradicting himself, and real experience is not contradicted either.
Calvinists find themselves faced with many, many scriptures that contradict what they believe and must be wrested to accomodate their doctrine. Those who believe in free will do not.
For instance, I can harden someone's heart. I have found through experience that when you are in disagreement with someone that you have to be careful. If you make that person angry, they will harden themselves against you, and become very obstinate, even if in their heart they know you are correct and they are wrong. People do not like to be shown they are wrong, it injures their pride. So, sometimes you have to lay off and let them think about it for awhile. If you persist to argue your case, they simply throw up a wall and will not listen to anything you say. I am sure you have experienced this yourself. So, you harden their hearts against you. But in the end, they are truly the one who hardens their own heart because of pride.
I once had an argument with my wife over the lyrics of a song. I was correct and she was wrong. But I laughed at her which embarrased her. She became very angry and would not admit she was mistaken. I insisted I was right, she insisted she was right. Sounds silly, but it turned into a very heated argument. She literally would not say one word to me for several weeks.
I should not have laughed at her. I should not have persisted to argue I was right even though I was. I injured her pride. And by persisting I made her extremely angry at me. There was no way she was going to admit she was in error. So, in this case I hardened her heart. But she also hardened her own heart.
Now, if you can understand this very normal occurance from real life, now you can understand these scriptures. God did not make Pharoah's heart incapable of being soft, of listening to God. In fact, if you read the story, at one time Pharoah admitted he had sinned.
Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
But Pharoah was not being sincere here. He simply wanted Moses to end the plague. And Moses knew this.
Exo 9:30 But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.
And sure enough:
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Now, how did God harden Pharoah's heart here? By ending the plague. The Lord actually showed grace to Pharoah. But Pharoah never intended to repent, he just wanted the plague to end, and as soon as he saw it was over, he hardened his own heart and would not let the children of Israel go.
And we see that everyday. We see some criminal cry to a judge and swear he will not commit crime if the judge will give him a break and let him go. And as soon as the judge lets him go, he goes right out and commits crime again. So experience shows a man has control over his own will and the attitudes of his heart. And this squares with scripture.
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By the way, to answer the idea that choice requires a free will:
When I go to a restaurant, I am free to order something that I do not like. But I will not order it because I do not like it.
In order for me to order that which I hate, I need a change of taste.
THe sinner loves his sin. he needs a change of will before he will choose the right.
When I go to a restaurant, I am free to order something that I do not like. But I will not order it because I do not like it.
In order for me to order that which I hate, I need a change of taste.
THe sinner loves his sin. he needs a change of will before he will choose the right.
That's interesting. Because a passage of scripture which actually does speak of groups, Jew and Gentile, you apply to individuals. I am speaking of Romans 9. Maybe you should follow your own rules of hermeneutics.
Ok. Show scripture that states that we are changed before we choose Christ. I believe you are saying that regeneration takes place before faith.
Interestingly, in Exod 4:21, long before Moses goes to Egypt, the Lord says, “I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.” It tells us that God promised to harden Pharaoh’s heart before Pharaoh had the chance. This is significant. There is no doubt that Pharaoh hardened his heart, but God said “I will do it.”
First, “experience” is not authority. The Bible is. Second, Calvinists say that a man is free to do whatever he wants. That’s free will. Depending on the conversation, it might be denied, but always look for definitions.
Again, this is often stated, but never yet shown from the Bible.
So it wasn’t God’s will for Joseph’s brothers to sell him? The Bible says it was.
It wasn’t God’s will for Judas to betray Christ? The Bible says it was.
So while it may be “totally nonsensical” to you, it is clearly stated in Scripture. Therefore, it must be believed.
Really?? So you can, but God can’t? Interestingly.
But God says that he raised Pharaoh up for this purpose to show his glory and that involved hardening. Your God isn’t big enough, it seems to me. You want to put God in a box of what he can and can’t do. I don’t buy that.
the Bible says that man is blind, hard, ignorant, and calloused (Eph 4:17-19). It says that he is unable to please God (Rom 8). That seems a totally different picture than what you give.
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