Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.

[Pastor Larry]

That's interesting. Because a passage of scripture which actually does speak of groups, Jew and Gentile, you apply to individuals.

Really?? How do you know that?

I am speaking of Romans 9. Maybe you should follow your own rules of hermeneutics.

I do follow my own rules. I haven't said anything about Romans 9 in a long time, but Jacob and Esau are individuals, as is Pharaoh. Hard to avoid the idea that individuals are in view. Again, it is about the context. Yes, if you pick out a verse here or there, you can show a thing or two, but we ahve to deal with Scripture in its context.

 

[Amy.G]

I do follow my own rules. I haven't said anything about Romans 9 in a long time, but Jacob and Esau are individuals, as is Pharaoh. Hard to avoid the idea that individuals are in view. Again, it is about the context. Yes, if you pick out a verse here or there, you can show a thing or two, but we ahve to deal with Scripture in its context.

In context, Jacob and Esau refer to nations.

 

[Winman]

THe sinner loves his sin. he needs a change of will before he will choose the right.

You may believe that, but that is not what the scriptures say.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

So, here again is another false teaching of Calvinism, Total Depravity. The Bible does not teach that. It does not teach that men are 100% evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man did not become 100% evil after the fall, the Bible shows man knows the difference between good and evil. And Jesus himself confirms that there are those who thirst and hunger for righteousness.

Psa 42:1 [To the chief Musician, Maschil, for the sons of Korah.] As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.
2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Psa 63:1 [A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah.] O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Psa 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

Psa 107:9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

The scriptures do not teach that the unsaved have no knowledge of good, and no desire for righteousness, they show the opposite.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In context, Jacob and Esau refer to nations.

LOL ... No they don't. Come on.

 

[Winman]

But God says that he raised Pharaoh up for this purpose to show his glory and that involved hardening. Your God isn’t big enough, it seems to me. You want to put God in a box of what he can and can’t do. I don’t buy that.

It is not talking about God hardening Pharoah's heart here. It is talking about God raising up Pharoah to be a great king. He choose Pharoah because he knew Pharoah would never listen to him.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

As someone else said, you Calvinists do not seem to know much scripture.

the Bible says that man is blind, hard, ignorant, and calloused (Eph 4:17-19). It says that he is unable to please God (Rom 8). That seems a totally different picture than what you give.

You made a very bad choice of scripture there, because the scripture clearly puts the responsibility on them, not God.

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It is not talking about God hardening Pharoah's heart here.

So when God says in Exod 4, "I will harden his heart" it isn't talking about God's hardening Pharaoh's heart? Interesting. And we are the ones who aren't listening to Scripture??

It is talking about God raising up Pharoah to be a great king. He choose Pharoah because he knew Pharoah would never listen to him.

How did God know this, and when did God know it? If God knew it from eternity past, or anytime before Pharaoh actually didn't listen, then God brought someone into the world with no chance of salvation, and God could have done something about it and chose not to.

As someone else said, you Calvinists do not seem to know much scripture.

Someone else was wrong, obviously.

You made a very bad choice of scripture there, because the scripture clearly puts the responsibility on them, not God.

Who disagrees with that? Calvinism clearly teaches that man's hardness and unbelief is his own choice. The Westminster Standards, the standard Calvinist confession, says "WCF 7:3 Man, by his fall, having made himself uncapable of life by that covenant,"


So again, I think you are revealing that you really don't know what you are opposed to.



Man is a sinner by nature and by choice. It is not God who makes him to be a sinner, and it is not God who keeps him in sin. Man is freely sinful

 

[Winman]

Man is always 100% responsible for his own sin, not God.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Men know the truth.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Even men who have not heard the gospel know there is a God, because it is evident in the creation all around them. So they have no excuse.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

All men know of God, but not all men glorify God or are thankful to him.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

God did not cause this vanity of mind, they did.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

God gives them up. At a certain point God will no longer strive with a man. Notice it says the lusts of their own heart.

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Again, God gave up on them. And God gives the reason for it. Calvinists can never answer why God chooses to save some men, and let others perish. But the Bible gives the reason.

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Again, "their lust". God does not put sinful lust in a man's heart.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

God does not make a man choose evil, men choose of themselves. God will strive with a man so long and call him to salvation. But at a certain point which only God knows, he will give them up. But it is because they of themselves did not like to retain God in their own knowledge.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Men know better. They know the penalty of sin is death. Nevertheless they choose to sin, and also have pleasure in others who disobey God.

Show me where in these scriptures it says God causes these men to be evil.
It does not show that, it shows men are 100% responsible for their own sin. It does show that God will not strive with a man forever, and that at some point God will give man just what he wants.

But this is not speaking of all men, because some men thirst and hunger for righteousness. These scriptures are speaking of men who love evil and darkness.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus shows two different types of men here, those who love darkness, and those who do the truth. And Jesus puts 100% of the responsibility on those who choose darkness. God does not cause any person to love sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[Winman]

So when God says in Exod 4, "I will harden his heart" it isn't talking about God's hardening Pharaoh's heart? Interesting. And we are the ones who aren't listening to Scripture??

Yes, it does say God hardened Pharoah's heart. But it also says Pharoah hardened his own heart.

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

Now, let me ask you something. If it was God's will that Pharoah's heart be hardened, then how could this be a sin as shown in vs 34? I mean, Pharoah would have been doing the will of God, how could this be a sin?

And if God hardens a mans heart against God, then God is causing a man to sin which the Bible says God never does.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Now if you are correct, then God has contradicted himself. He hardened Pharoah's heart and called it sin. So God caused Pharoah to sin which contradicts God's own scripture in James 1:13-14

So, you see, something is wrong here. And what is wrong is that you do not understand the scriptures. God did not give Pharoah a heart that was incapable of submitting to God, Pharoah could have submitted. Pharoah chose not to submit, the fault was 100% his and his alone. It is true that God knew in advance that Pharoah would not submit. God knew Pharoah would be obstinate and stubborn.

And what did God do in each case that said he hardened Pharoah's heart? He stopped a plague. God did a good thing, a nice thing for Pharoah each time. It was when God let Pharoah off the hook that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

And it is just like the example I gave. A criminal will cry and beg a judge to let him go for a crime. He will promise to go straight. And the criminal might even believe he is being sincere at the time. But as soon as the judge lets him go, the criminal becomes vain in his mind and thinks he can commit crime and get away with it again. And so he goes out and robs again.

You conveniently ignore the many scriptures that say Pharoah hardened his own heart to keep your false doctrine.

 

[webdog]

No it doesn't. REad John 3 again. It likens the lifting up of the serpent to the lifting up of Christ.

Yes, correct. To lift up either the serpent or Christ takes no regeneration at all, whether before or after faith.

It's not just speaking of lifting up Christ...it's also speaking of what happens when He is lifted up, and how one is saved. The audience well understood what happened with Moses and the serpent on the rod, and the simile to spiritual life was also being made.

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

 

[Benefactor]

I agree. But that doesn't tell us why they change. The question is: What changes them from loving darkness to loving light?


Amy, I hate to see you dodging these things. Why not just interact with what the Scriptures actually say?

Larry we know that your understanding of dead is sins and trespasses means that man of himself is totally depraved and cannot and will not respond to the call of God unless the person is first saved/ regenerated. Do you deny that?

Second, we know that after regeneration / new birth /conversion then and only then does a person reach the order of salvation as R10:10 teach. Do you deny that this is your teaching? You do agree that this statement is true concerning Calvinism don't you?

So, in your view a persons moves from loving darkness to loving light when a person is first born a gain or regenerated, is that not a correct statement concerning your view of Calvinism?

 

[Winman]

Who disagrees with that? Calvinism clearly teaches that man's hardness and unbelief is his own choice. The Westminster Standards, the standard Calvinist confession, says "WCF 7:3 Man, by his fall, having made himself uncapable of life by that covenant,"

What kind of gobblety-goop is that? You say Calvinism teaches a man's unbelief is a choice, then say man is uncapable (I think you meant incapable).

I don't know if anyone can get through to anyone who can believe two opposite things are the same at the same time. (Cuckoo bird sounds)

You say God hardens a man's heart. The Bible says it is a sin for a man to harden his heart in unbelief. So therefore God causes a man to sin. But the Bible says God never causes a man to sin......

Round and round and round we go, where it stops, nobody knows.....

 

[Me4Him]

==I'm starting to wonder if I am wasting my time in this discussion. You folks are not taking the time to respond to me as I am taking the time to respond to you. Why should I spend my time on a fruitless, endless merry-go-round, discussion?

I am answering your questions, it just that you've "closed your eyes" to the answers, here's an example.

:
Originally Posted by Me4Him
next you say, men are enslaved to sin to the point that none would come to God except God draws them.

Both points are invalid according to scripture.



==I have shown both points from the Scriptures over and over and over and over again in this thread. You are in error on this point. Scripture clearly shows that man is naturally a slave to sin who does not turn to God (Rom 3:9-12). The same can be said for most of your post/reply.

In my reply I show you that people do try to "come to God", without the spirit drawing them, but on their own terms, even claiming to cast out devils in Jesus name and sitting in the church every Sunday, still unsaved,

and Israel having a "Zeal" for God but not in righteousness,

Man is not as "Depraved" as your doctrine claims in order to support it.

Man has a "Conscience", a "Responsibility" and a "CHOICE" to accept/reject God according to God's terms, but man is not so depraved that some won't "Seek God" and attempt to get into heaven on their own terms.

If man was as depraved as you claim, he wouldn't have a "Conscience/Responsibility or Choice", he would be no better than an "Animal".

Which is basically what your doctrine had reduced man down too.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Man is always 100% responsible for his own sin, not God. … Men know the truth…. Even men who have not heard the gospel know there is a God, because it is evident in the creation all around them. So they have no excuse. … All men know of God, but not all men glorify God or are thankful to him. … God did not cause this vanity of mind, they did. … God gives them up. At a certain point God will no longer strive with a man. Notice it says the lusts of their own heart. … Again, God gave up on them.

Careful. You are sounding like a Calvinist.

Calvinists can never answer why God chooses to save some men, and let others perish.

Yes, we can. He says why he does it in Eph 1 … That we would be to the praise of his glory.

Again, "their lust". God does not put sinful lust in a man's heart. … God does not make a man choose evil, men choose of themselves. God will strive with a man so long and call him to salvation. But at a certain point which only God knows, he will give them up. But it is because they of themselves did not like to retain God in their own knowledge. … Men know better. They know the penalty of sin is death. Nevertheless they choose to sin, and also have pleasure in others who disobey God.

Again, very Calvinistic.

Show me where in these scriptures it says God causes these men to be evil.

Don’t know any place. That’s why Calvinism doesn’t teach that.

it shows men are 100% responsible for their own sin.

As does Calvinism as you can see from the quotes above.

But this is not speaking of all men, because some men thirst and hunger for righteousness.

And why is this? Can you answer that? Tell us why some men hunger and thirst for righteousness and others do not. What’s the difference?

Jesus shows two different types of men here, those who love darkness, and those who do the truth. And Jesus puts 100% of the responsibility on those who choose darkness. God does not cause any person to love sin.

Again, you talk like a Calvinist.

Please decide what you believe. Virtually this whole post is accurate Calvinism. You can’t claim to hate it while also believing it. You need to make up your mind.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yes, it does say God hardened Pharoah's heart. But it also says Pharoah hardened his own heart.

That’s why we affirm both. Tell me this. In the text of Scripture, which comes first? (Look at the chapter numbers where it is found, and just answer the question).

Now, let me ask you something. If it was God's will that Pharoah's heart be hardened, then how could this be a sin as shown in vs 34? I mean, Pharoah would have been doing the will of God, how could this be a sin?

Because it is a sin to reject God. Not sure why that is confusing.

And if God hardens a mans heart against God, then God is causing a man to sin which the Bible says God never does.

No, it’s not. Paul addresses that in Rom 3. You should read it.

Now if you are correct, then God has contradicted himself.

Not at all.

God did not give Pharoah a heart that was incapable of submitting to God, Pharoah could have submitted. Pharoah chose not to submit, the fault was 100% his and his alone. It is true that God knew in advance that Pharoah would not submit. God knew Pharoah would be obstinate and stubborn.

You got any Bible for any of this? I noticed that you cited a lot of Scripture up until here. Why did you stop?

You conveniently ignore the many scriptures that say Pharoah hardened his own heart to keep your false doctrine.

And which Scriptures are those? I believe Pharaoh hardened his own heart because the Bible says so. I am not sure you are coherent here. You deny Scripture and then accuse me of believing something I don’t even believe.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It's not just speaking of lifting up Christ...it's also speaking of what happens when He is lifted up, and how one is saved. The audience well understood what happened with Moses and the serpent on the rod, and the simile to spiritual life was also being made.

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Yes, when Christ lifted up, people look to him to be saved. No one went to heaven because they looked at the serpent. The simile is the lifting up, not the result of it. Please study your Bible more.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry we know that your understanding of dead is sins and trespasses means that man of himself is totally depraved and cannot and will not respond to the call of God unless the person is first saved/ regenerated. Do you deny that?

Yes, I deny that. A person does not have to be saved before responding to God. He is however totally dead and unable. That is why the Bible says that the natural man "cannot" please God, he is "unable" to do so. I just believe what it says.

Second, we know that after regeneration / new birth /conversion then and only then does a person reach the order of salvation as R10:10 teach. Do you deny that this is your teaching? You do agree that this statement is true concerning Calvinism don't you?

I don't even understand that statement. Regeneration is the new birth. Conversion, theologically, is faith and repentance. So i am not sure what your question is.

So, in your view a persons moves from loving darkness to loving light when a person is first born a gain or regenerated, is that not a correct statement concerning your view of Calvinism?

It has nothign to do with my view of Calvinism. It has to do with what the Scriptures teach. They teach that every man is totally depraved (that depravity affects every area of his being), and they are unwilling and unable to respond to God. If you disagree with that, then your beef is with Scripture, not me.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What kind of gobblety-goop is that?

That "gobblety-goop" is the Westminster Confession of Faith. It has been around for hundreds of years and is widely recognized as one of the standard confessions of faith of Calvinists.

You say Calvinism teaches a man's unbelief is a choice, then say man is uncapable (I think you meant incapable).

That's a cut and paste from the Westminster confession. I didn't write. They, died in the wool Calvinists, wrote it.

I don't know if anyone can get through to anyone who can believe two opposite things are the same at the same time. (Cuckoo bird sounds)

The question is what does the Bible teach? You are adamantly opposed to something but you are not even familiar with what it teaches.

You say God hardens a man's heart.

I didn't say that. God said that.

The Bible says it is a sin for a man to harden his heart in unbelief. So therefore God causes a man to sin.

That's blasphemous.

Round and round and round we go, where it stops, nobody knows.....

It stops when people start reading the Bible for what it says rather than making it up and trying to fit the Bible into it.

Quite frankly, friend, you should be embarrassed that you didn't recognize Westminster even after I told you what it was. Someone who has strong view about the issue should at least have taken time to be familiar with the issue. You aren't. That's too bad. You should listen to people who know what they are talking about. You don't have to agree with us, but you should at least let us say what we believe. You dont' get to tell us what we believe.

 

[Amy.G]

That "gobblety-goop" is the Westminster Confession of Faith. It has been around for hundreds of years and is widely recognized as one of the standard confessions of faith of Calvinists.

It's also the confession of faith for Presbyterians. I am a Baptist. I do not hold to that document. If I did, I would join a Presbyterian church.

 

[Me4Him]

It has nothign to do with my view of Calvinism. It has to do with what the Scriptures teach. They teach that every man is totally depraved (that depravity affects every area of his being), and they are unwilling and unable to respond to God. If you disagree with that, then your beef is with Scripture, not me.

Could you answer post 212 in context with your above statement??

Thanks.

 

[webdog]

Yes, when Christ lifted up, people look to him to be saved. No one went to heaven because they looked at the serpent. The simile is the lifting up, not the result of it. Please study your Bible more.

The simile is the entire experience, healing experience as well...and leave the snide remarks out, it's quite unbecoming of a moderator.