Priest of Medjugorje Visons of Mary Defrocked

[Jedi Knight]

I imagine God knew not to let people know where Moses was buried...people would go worship him. Anyone who prays to "Mary" is no better than one praying to Buddha or Mohammad. There is only one mediator and that's the way it is.....its not up for debate with God. To me Roman Catholicism has so much heresies "lies" in it that one needs flee from it asap.

 

[Amy.G]

I heard or read somewhere about a theory that God buried Moses Himself. Has anyone else ever heard of that?

 

[Jedi Knight]

I heard or read somewhere about a theory that God buried Moses Himself. Has anyone else ever heard of that?

And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Deuteronomy 34:6 God buried Moses"the Law"...but raised Christ"Grace"! :godisgood:

 

[Amy.G]

And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Deuteronomy 34:6 God buried Moses"the Law"...but raised Christ"Grace"! :godisgood:

Thanks. I did not know that was in scripture.

I guess it' more than a theory, huh? :laugh:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus...

"Hi Zenas, Just a few comments...As an Orthodox Christian we began The Dormition of Mary Fast this past Saturday. It has been Traditionally held throughout the Church that Mary died a physical death while under the care of St. John and had a burial. Those Apostles that weren't present for the burial returned to her tomb to discover the tomb empty and concluded that her divine Son had raised and translated His mother to life with Him in the Kingdom.

Traditionally this is what the Church believes to have happened to Mary's body, but I don't think it's to the point of dogma, hence the reason we only celebrate her Dormition."

The problem here is that the scriptures strongly teach us to never take into consideration tradition in order to do determine truth, but rather it is scriptures alone we are to heed...

"6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:


‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’[a]


8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[c] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[d]

11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God),

12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother,

13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[Alive in Christ]

Medjgagorie is actually one of several demonic manifistations visibly masqurading as "Mary" that have occured.

I believe the most recent was involving a woman named Veronica Leuken in Bayside, Long Island NY back in the early 1980's, I believe. There was...and might still be...a radio broadcast devoted to propagating the various "messages" from heaven supposedly given by the demonic manifestation masquarading as Mary the earthly mother of Christ. I think the Catholic Church has tried to distance themselves from these messages, which is quite odd considering its past acceptance of these sort of manifestations.

Click here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronica_Lueken

 

[Zenas]

never[/b] take into consideration tradition in order to do determine truth, but rather it is scriptures alone we are to heed...

AC, it doesn't exactly say that. The most we can infer here is that we are to reject the traditons of men. We are to hold to the traditions of God.

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:12.

Also, I guess it's fair to assume that you don't observe Christmas as a religious holiday.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The problem here is that the scriptures strongly teach us to never take into consideration tradition in order to do determine truth, but rather it is scriptures alone we are to heed...

Oh, so you're suggesting Mary never died, b/c scripture never mentioned it?

In XC
-

 

[BobRyan]

I imagine God knew not to let people know where Moses was buried...people would go worship him. Anyone who prays to "Mary" is no better than one praying to Buddha or Mohammad. There is only one mediator and that's the way it is.....its not up for debate with God. To me Roman Catholicism has so much heresies "lies" in it that one needs flee from it asap.

Prayers to the dead - -what a concept.

There is a Catholic Digest article that comes to mind where they argue that the prayers to the dead tradition was a stand-in for the former "family gods" and "pagan gods" kind of praying as Constantine tried to meld his pagan citizenry into a Christian mold.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Agnus...



The problem here is that the scriptures strongly teach us to never take into consideration tradition in order to do determine truth, but rather it is scriptures alone we are to heed...

Here is something the Scriptures teach which seems to refute your assertion:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." 2 Thess 2:15

Doesn't look like Paul would agree that we are to "never take into consideration tradition" in determining truth.

EDIT: looks like Zenas beat me to it. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

I never said nor do I think the medium brought up Samuel because she cried out. There is a reason God tells us that; she was surprised. Samuel was not what she usually saw (iow, he was real whereas she was probably used to seeing nothing or something "ghostly" like a spirit/demon).

Another way we know this is Samuel: The Bible says it's Samuel, Samuel rebukes Saul for disobeying God, and Samuel correctly predicts Saul's death.

Saul wanted his prophet and God gave it to him - in spades!

Chronicles tells the story saying that "God became Saul's enemy" because he sought out a spiritist medium "inquiring of IT".

Saul tells the woman to use her familiar spirit to "bring up for me whom I tell thee".

The woman asks "Whom shall I bring up for thee".

Samuel asks "why have you disturbed me by bringing me UP?" vs 15

Satan's claim is that his servants have power to "bring up the dead" -- yes even dead saints.

The demons play along with that story as they impersonate the dead.

notice that in the story - Saul never claims to see anyone.

Also notice that when the story is restated in Chronicles it tells us that God becomes Saul's enemy BECAUSE of this act!

This means that as the demon is pronouncing the doom of Saul -- IT is gaining that ground by Saul's very act at the time in offending God by appealing to the demon to talk to him as if it is Samuel.

Hence God's position is that "the dead know not anything" and is also "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22.

But Satan's position is "ask of me - whom do you wish for me to bring up for you".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The mystery around Moses is that his burial place was not given or known; this was highly unusual in the OT for someone of that stature to not have this recorded. Jude records a dispute over the body of Moses between Satan and Michael the archangel.

I think possibly Moses died but was then bodily taken to heaven; Elijah was bodily taken to heaven while alive. But I have not thought too much about this.

If Jude is correct in quoting the "Assumption of Moses" as being fact - then that appears to be the case and would explain why the incident in Matt 17 is still in perfect harmony with scripture stating that we are not to commune with the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Anyone who prays to "Mary" is no better than one praying to Buddha or Mohammad. There is only one mediator and that's the way it is.....its not up for debate with God. To me Roman Catholicism has so much heresies "lies" in it that one needs flee from it asap.

Christ is the One Mediator with God the Father, yet we are enjoined by St. Paul the Apostle, to pray for one another. St. Paul exhorts his readers to be imitators of him, just as he is of Christ.

To affirm that Christ is the one Mediator would, logically, preclude our asking one another to pray for us. We should, in that event, simply go to Christ. Of what use then, is our prayer for one another? So how can it be that we are called upon to pray for one another?

Simply put, when we put on Christ and become members of His Body that is the Church (and just as the Spirit rests on Christ, so too does the Spirit rest on His Body that is the Church), we too are called to become a "royal priesthood" and "priests, prophets and kings" as Scripture affirms in more than one place. We too participate in the one Priesthood of Christ and are called to intercede for the Church and the world in one Spirit, through Christ to the glory of God the Father.

With respect to the issue of praying to Mary, Orthodox and Catholics and other Christians, simply honour her and the saints, asking for her prayers and that is all. To invoke Mary and the Saints is to ask them to pray for us as we are all part of the Communion of Saints, the Body of Christ. We are all alive in Christ and we are enjoined in a number of places in Scripture itself to pray for one another and, as the Epistle of James shows, the prayer of the righteous is most powerful with God.

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

[/I]



1. I mean that Jude affirms the facts found in the book "The assumption of Moses" by quoting them as fact.

2. The assumption is not a reference to "translated like Elijah" it is a reference to "died, resurrected and then taken to heaven".




Hint - you could not have read all of it.

Christ states in Matt 22 "God is not the God of the dead" as a "proof" that there MUST be a resurrection.

in Christ,

Bob

So accordingly why could not Mary or anyother saint be spoken with defying what Marcia says here:

Here's the bottom line for me for all of this: Anyone with a claim to a non-normative event that seems contrary to scripture or has no basis in scripture has the burden on him or her to give evidence. If they can't, then we are not at fault for disbelieving it.

BTW your argument is the same argument that the RCC uses to support prayers to the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan




1. I mean that Jude affirms the facts found in the book "The assumption of Moses" by quoting them as fact.

2. The assumption is not a reference to "translated like Elijah" it is a reference to "died, resurrected and then taken to heaven".

Hint - you could not have read all of it.

Christ states in Matt 22 "God is not the God of the dead" as a "proof" that there MUST be a resurrection.

in Christ,

Bob[/i]

So accordingly why could not Mary or anyother saint be spoken with

As a dead person -- God's word says they "can not do anything" and also "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22. So that is Christ saying that the only solution for the dead is "the resurrection" (otherwise they would be stuck in a "God is not their God" condition as the only condition to reference present or even future as Paul notes in 1Cor 5).

BTW your argument is the same argument that the RCC uses to support prayers to the saints.

Hint - Catholics NEVER make the argument I am making. (They only argue the negative of what I am saying). Where I do agree with the Catholics is that if you ignore some of the clear Bible statements on this point you just might end up with the view that the seance in 1Sam 28 "was really Samuel being brought up from the dead" and you might end up with thinking of Matt 17 as another "seance" blessed by God... and then you would have a good case for your own "prayers to the dead" doctrine. There we agree - and they gladly ignore the required Bible texts to leap to that conclusion.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ is the One Mediator with God the Father, yet we are enjoined by St. Paul the Apostle, to pray for one another. St. Paul exhorts his readers to be imitators of him, just as he is of Christ.

Agreed. But we are never asked to pray to the dead - nor do we have any example in all of scripture of anyone praying to the dead in obedience to Paul's instruction for the living to appeal to one another for intercessory prayers.

To affirm that Christ is the one Mediator would, logically, preclude our asking one another to pray for us.

How so?

We do not offer the blood of Christ -- mediate the blood of the New Covenant on behalf of one another. Christ alone can do that according to Hebrews 7-9. We do not stand "as mediator between God and man" - Christ alone does that according to 1Tim 2. Notice that in Eph 6 where Paul asks for us to pray for him -- He does not say "pray that God will forgive me so that through your mediation in my behalf I will be able to find forgiveness of sins".

But IF Paul DID argue such a thing - we would then be stuck with a "problem" when it comes to the point that Christ is the ONE Mediator between God and man. (Interesting that the pray for others statement of Paul is in the same chapter)

We should, in that event, simply go to Christ. Of what use then, is our prayer for one another?

Paul NEVER argues "do not go to Christ - instead go to each other"!!.

Paul consistently calls for prayers on behalf of the saints and on behalf of all men - but not as "Mediators" but rather as co-petitioners who share the griefs and sorrows of the brethren. We are not mediators "between God and man" --- only Christ is!

By contrast Christ through His own blood MEDIATES the New Covenant before God and "between God and man". There can only be one in that position.

So how can it be that we are called upon to pray for one another?

5 people going to the king asking for the same request as the one -- is the idea.

But Christ's role would be as the Prince of the realm going before the King and petitioning on behalf of the people.

Christ is ontologically God and man. He alone is the God-man and He alone offers His own sinless blood as the blood of the covenant -- offering it up before God as our High Priest in the Hebrews 7-9 Heavenly Sanctuary.

There is no conflict at all in that regard - because none of us can do that -- no not even a little.

Simply put, when we put on Christ and become members of His Body that is the Church (and just as the Spirit rests on Christ, so too does the Spirit rest on His Body that is the Church), we too are called to become a "royal priesthood" and "priests, prophets and kings" as Scripture affirms in more than one place.

Our role in the priesthood is to relay the truth of the Gospel to a fallen World. (One of the key roles of the OT priest). We are not mediating the blood of the sacrifice. Only Christ can do that -- and so He does as our High Priest.

That is why John says in 1John 2:1 "I write these things that you sin not - but if anyone does sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".

He never says "But if you do sin - you have dead saints you can pray to -- and they will mediate forgiveness for you before God".

With respect to the issue of praying to Mary, Orthodox and Catholics and other Christians, simply honour her and the saints, asking for her prayers and that is all. To invoke Mary and the Saints is to ask them to pray for us as we are all part of the Communion of Saints, the Body of Christ.

To attempt any form of commuincation with the dead is forbidden in scripture.

In Isaiah 8:19-20 God says that we should not attempt to consult the dead for requests/favors on behalf of the living.

When we read the actual prayers that have been designed for Mary and other dead saints - we find that not only are people communicating with the dead - they are in fact consulting them "on behalf of the living".

We are all alive in Christ and we are enjoined in a number of places in Scripture itself to pray for one another and, as the Epistle of James shows, the prayer of the righteous is most powerful with God.

In XC
-

Indeed that is true for the living - but not the dead as God tells us in Isaiah 8:19.

Specifically the act of trying to get the servant of satan to haul up Samuel from the dead is explicitly forbidden in Isaiah 8.

But in your model -- it is merely a wonderful example of asking the righteous dead to provide help to the living.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus,

"With respect to the issue of praying to Mary, Orthodox and Catholics and other Christians, simply honour her and the saints, asking for her prayers and that is all."

Nonsense.

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox both engage in pure, very obvious goddess worship.

It is extremely obvious.

She is understood to have the power to hear prayers 24 hours a day from all over the world at the same time, attributing to her omnipresence. She is considered to be, and referred to as, the "Queen of Heaven" and the "mediatrix of all grace". She is in every sense, "high and lifted up"...as a goddess must be. In some countries, idols of her are paraded through the streets while her rapturous worshipers are in a state of extacy as they worship their "goddess".

This is simply the truth, Agnus, and you know these things are true. No matter how much the Orthodox and the Catholics try to dupe people into believing otherwise, it is still the truth.

These demonic manifestations are just one among the many ways that groups like the Catholic Church and the Orthodox group engage in goddess worship.

 

[BobRyan]

If this keeps up I am going to have to post some quotes of those prayers and Papal appeals to the "Queen of the Universe" -- "Mother of God" and co-redemptrix with Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As a dead person -- God's word says they "can not do anything" and also "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22. So that is Christ saying that the only solution for the dead is "the resurrection" (otherwise they would be stuck in a "God is not their God" condition as the only condition to reference present or even future as Paul notes in 1Cor 5).




Hint - Catholics NEVER make the argument I am making. (They only argue the negative of what I am saying). Where I do agree with the Catholics is that if you ignore some of the clear Bible statements on this point you just might end up with the view that the seance in 1Sam 28 "was really Samuel being brought up from the dead" and you might end up with thinking of Matt 17 as another "seance" blessed by God... and then you would have a good case for your own "prayers to the dead" doctrine. There we agree - and they gladly ignore the required Bible texts to leap to that conclusion.

in Christ,

Bob

Not true they say the saints are alive and thus they can speak with them. They use your same argument that you mention about Moses on the Mt. of Transfiguration. That Jesus wasn't speaking with the dead but the living.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If this keeps up I am going to have to post some quotes of those prayers and Papal appeals to the "Queen of the Universe" -- "Mother of God" and co-redemptrix with Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

As far a mother of God ( the others I cannot vouch for) you're mistaken about the intent of the term. Theotokos has everything to do with who Christ is. The debate originally was. Mary gave birth to a man that later was possessed by the Holy Spirit. Or that Jesus was not equall (homoosious) with the father. Theotokos was stated to assure that people understood Jesus was Homoosious with the father rather than being a demurge. The modern debate about Catholics and the Mother of God is from a point of ignorance. The modern debate somehow indicates that Mary gave birth to the invisible God being greater than God. But that only because people who assert this at the Catholic Church don't know their history and how the phrase came into being.