Priest of Medjugorje Visons of Mary Defrocked

[Alive in Christ]

Zenus...

"AC, it doesn't exactly say that. The most we can infer here is that we are to reject the traditons of men. We are to hold to the traditions of God."

And the "traditions" of God are now to be drawn from the scriptures.

"Also, I guess it's fair to assume that you don't observe Christmas as a religious holiday."

Not as a "religious" holiday, no. I greatly diminish it. I give people cards. I do not put up a tree. I do not consider the day of Dec 25th to be in any sense a "holy" day.

 

[Marcia]

Chronicles tells the story saying that "God became Saul's enemy" because he sought out a spiritist medium "inquiring of IT".

Saul tells the woman to use her familiar spirit to "bring up for me whom I tell thee".

The woman asks "Whom shall I bring up for thee".

Samuel asks "why have you disturbed me by bringing me UP?" vs 15

Satan's claim is that his servants have power to "bring up the dead" -- yes even dead saints.

The demons play along with that story as they impersonate the dead.

notice that in the story - Saul never claims to see anyone.

Also notice that when the story is restated in Chronicles it tells us that God becomes Saul's enemy BECAUSE of this act!

This means that as the demon is pronouncing the doom of Saul -- IT is gaining that ground by Saul's very act at the time in offending God by appealing to the demon to talk to him as if it is Samuel.

Hence God's position is that "the dead know not anything" and is also "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22.

But Satan's position is "ask of me - whom do you wish for me to bring up for you".

in Christ,

Bob

A demon would not rebuke Saul for disobeying God (in the matter of the Amalakites -- read more of the book of 1 Samuel -- God had already taken His spirit from Saul before this incident), nor can a demon predict the future as accurately as what was predicted for Saul and his sons,

 

[Zenas]

Zenus...
And the "traditions" of God are now to be drawn from the scriptures.

Excuse me? Where does scripture say that? And what did Paul mean in his admonitions to the Corinthians and Thessalonians concerning traditions? I don't recall him telling them to "use the traditions I gave you but only as long as I am alive. After that, if you don't have it in writing from an apostle you must discard it."

 

[Jedi Knight]

Whatever is not of faith is sin and faith has to be in TRUTH to be valid. We are never told to pray to one another,rather pray for one another...BIG difference. Praying to the dead saint whom are now in glory is a sin because no one comes to God but though the Son. Mary is not a mediator and if anyone continues in a false path is sinning against Gods clear revelation. John chapter 4 Jesus is telling the woman @ the well what kind of applicants God will accept.

 

[targus]

I find your logic in trying to connect those two points to be "illusive" just then.

Unless you are claiming the extreme position that affirmation of the 1Cor 12 Gifts of the Spirit is to be equated with mariolotry. (Which I suppose may be your point -- one can always use clarity in such a nonsequitter as you have offerred)

in Christ,

Bob

You are aware that you took two posts by two different people and then attempted to attribute some "connection" between the two unrelated points of discussion.

I made a simple statement which you are attempting to wrap into something else in order to pretend that SDA do not have an "odd obsession" for Ellen White.

My statement stands alone and is self sufficient to convey my opinion.

I find the catholic obsession for Mary no more odd (and perhaps less odd) than the SDA obsession for Ellen White.

 

[targus]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Apparently the dark ages was a wonderful time for just "making stuff up"

As was Ellen White's ministry obviously.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As was Ellen White's ministry obviously.

It seems niether of you understand mideval history. Obviously, the uneducated had their superstitions however there was ground breaking work in reason being conducted in the middle ages. Its funny how people just make a remark off the cuff without really understanding the subject matter.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Whatever is not of faith is sin and faith has to be in TRUTH to be valid. We are never told to pray to one another, rather pray for one another...BIG difference.

Agreed, you are asking your Christian friends to intercede to God on your behalf. In essence JK, when you "ask" someone to pray FOR you, you are really "praying" TO them..."Pray" means to make a request...you also see "Pray" in legal terms as a formal request, relief and/or damages at the end of a complaint or petition.

Praying to the dead saint whom are now in glory is a sin because no one comes to God but though the Son.

The Saints are very much alive in Christ, although their bodies are "dead". The Saints are still in Christ and are a part of Christ's body (His Church) even in glory, so we can still ask that they intercede on our behalf to God. God hears the prayers of the righteous.

Mary is not a mediator and if anyone continues in a false path is sinning against Gods clear revelation. John chapter 4 Jesus is telling the woman @ the well what kind of applicants God will accept.

I can't speak totally for the RCC, but in my Orthodox Church, we do not accept any mediator between God and man except Lord Jesus Christ, the Chief High Priest and the Sacrifice by whose blood we receive the reconciliation and remission of sins.

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

My discussions with RCC members have revealed to me that your view is their position as well. The saints have no power in and of themselves but everything is submitted to God who in turns gives them the objects to pray for. Kind of like people in their prayer closets get inspiration from the Holy Spirit to pray for someone they either know or do not know. As I've mentioned to Bob Ryan these same catholics (my family) also state that just as Jesus was not speaking with a Dead Moses niether are they speaking with dead Saints.

 

[targus]

It seems niether of you understand mideval history. Obviously, the uneducated had their superstitions however there was ground breaking work in reason being conducted in the middle ages. Its funny how people just make a remark off the cuff without really understanding the subject matter.

I'm not talking about the middle ages.

I said that Ellens White's ministry was a wonderful time for just "making stuff up" - as BobRyan likes to put it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm not talking about the middle ages.

I said that Ellens White's ministry was a wonderful time for just "making stuff up" - as BobRyan likes to put it.

I was responding to the post from BobRyans post you reponded to. Which was

Apparently the dark ages was a wonderful time for just "making stuff up"

I thought you were agreeing with him. This is an inaccurate statment. Just to clarify.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Agreed, you are asking your Christian friends to intercede to God on your behalf. In essence JK, when you "ask" someone to pray FOR you, you are really "praying" TO them..."Pray" means to make a request...you also see "Pray" in legal terms as a formal request, relief and/or damages at the end of a complaint or petition.

The Saints are very much alive in Christ, although their bodies are "dead". The Saints are still in Christ and are a part of Christ's body (His Church) even in glory, so we can still ask that they intercede on our behalf to God. God hears the prayers of the righteous.

This is Idolatry 101 and you are trying to justify it.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not talking about the middle ages.

.

Well if you have any hope of getting on the actual subject of this thread - you might want to think about it.

:type:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

A demon would not rebuke Saul for disobeying God

Predicting what demons will say could be harder that you might imagine.

When Satan tempted Christ he quoted scripture to make his point.

If the demons were that easy to read -- they would not be that good at their jobs of "deception".

The fact that the servant of satan claimed the power to "bring up samuel" and the fact that the supposed "samuel" agreed with them -- is enough "Bible evidence" that something is very very wrong.

Notice that when the demon asks Saul why he is looking for the dead Samuel - Saul says it is becaue GOD refuses to allow any of HIS servants to speak with Saul -- the idea is that "Satan can get around God's restriction and has power over the dead saints".

You gotta wonder just how blind Saul had to be to the Bible prohibition at that point.

Then the fact that in the book of Chronicles it is stated that the very ACT of going to the familiar spirit and "inquiring of IT" is what set God against Saul - confirms it. And since Chronicles is a part of scripture - I take it as the inspired summary of God on that story.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Whatever is not of faith is sin and faith has to be in TRUTH to be valid. We are never told to pray to one another,rather pray for one another...BIG difference.

Good point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Well if you have any hope of getting on the actual subject of this thread - you might want to think about it.

:type:

in Christ,

Bob

Deflection.

The thread is not about the middle ages.

SDA's don't like to talk about Ellen White.

I can't say that I blame you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Regarding praying to Mary or other people who have died, Jedi said...

"This is Idolatry 101 and you are trying to justify it."

It sure is. Pure unadulterated idolatry. And, sadly, the fact that Catholics and Orthodox are incapable of seeing or understanding that is very very troubling.

God have mercy.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Predicting what demons will say could be harder that you might imagine.

When Satan tempted Christ he quoted scripture to make his point.

If the demons were that easy to read -- they would not be that good at their jobs of "deception".

The fact that the servant of satan claimed the power to "bring up samuel" and the fact that the supposed "samuel" agreed with them -- is enough "Bible evidence" that something is very very wrong.

Notice that when the demon asks Saul why he is looking for the dead Samuel - Saul says it is becaue GOD refuses to allow any of HIS servants to speak with Saul -- the idea is that "Satan can get around God's restriction and has power over the dead saints".

You gotta wonder just how blind Saul had to be to the Bible prohibition at that point.

Then the fact that in the book of Chronicles it is stated that the very ACT of going to the familiar spirit and "inquiring of IT" is what set God against Saul - confirms it. And since Chronicles is a part of scripture - I take it as the inspired summary of God on that story.

in Christ,

Bob

The fact is niether you nor Marcia know for sure who spoke to Saul. Its all speculation. Saul like every other person wanted his own thing and that was , for him, to expand his kingdom preferably with God's blessing. He thought he could get good intel about the future through a medium and thats all that mattered to him not God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Deflection.

The thread is not about the middle ages.

SDA's don't like to talk about Ellen White.

I can't say that I blame you.

You guys brought up inaccuracy regarding that topic and I clarified. Simple.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Regarding praying to Mary or other people who have died, Jedi said...



It sure is. Pure unadulterated idolatry. And, sadly, the fact that Catholics and Orthodox are incapable of seeing or understanding that is very very troubling.

God have mercy.

I will use a Catholic answer here. So, when Jesus spoke with Moses on the Mt. of Transfiguration he was commiting Idolatry? Because Moses died back in Deuteronomy. Its a recorded fact. Yet here Jesus was on a mountain outside of Jerusalem speaking with Moses. Should we like Marcia did with Saul and suppose it was a demon? BobRyan's argument then became well Moses isn't dead because Jude refers to the assumption of Moses. Yet Judes quote doesn't reflect Moses as being alive but that Michael and Satan argued over the body of Moses. Then BobRyan said that God is the God of the living. Well, that means we as Christians are alive in Christ does that mean we stay dead when we die? No! We are eternally alive in Christ and therefore the saints are not dead and if not dead then they are participating in the drama and the life of the Church as we can see in revelations where they are in continuous prayer before the Lord. The Lord alows them to know who needs prayer and they pray for them. The Lord Jesus is still the only mediator but the Saints are participating in praying for us whether or not we ask them to. It just so happens that Catholics and Orthodox believe in a very important statement from the Apostles creed. Communion of the Saints. And Where two or more are gathered together Jesus is in their presence. So when a Catholic or Orthodox pray to a saint asking for their prayers and support even though you see one person there is a community and Christ is in their presense.
So, since this is the Catholic answer you can argue against it from a point of knowledge rather than half blown consepts that you don't even know about. Just like mother of God. How many of you really understood it. All of you only look at it from a gnostic point of view where Mary is in some way greater than God. Which means none of you really know history and understand it from what its really talking about which is Jesus Christ and his divinity rather than saying anything about Mary really. Mary is Theotokos which means Jesus is the same Divine God that was incarnated not some sort of possessed man nor modulist form of God. It was used to combat Nestorianism.
I would prefer if people spoke knowledgeably rather than off rumors and insinuation. Just like I hate hearing some one say Baptist only preach about hell. It tells me they don't know what they are talking about.