Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[OldRegular]

Thanks OR. I needed that today!




Well, yes I have done that, but it was like um...........35 years ago....:laugh:


I see what you're saying, but in all fairness, this document could have been worded much better.

I agree but It was written about 1620. They wrote much different than we do. I have a 7 volume set of books on Hebrews by Reformed writer John Owen. Some of the sentences cover half a page or more with lots of semicolons. Essentially impossible to follow his train of thought. I bought the set with the view of reading it when I retired but it is too much of a challenge.

John Gill wrote about the same time period but is easier to follow though it does require much effort at times.

 

[Benefactor]

Sport you can't read plain English. I have no idea whether or not you comprehend Article 11 but you are completely ignorant of what Article 12 states. Anyone who has completed 12th grade English should be able to understand these two articles. Your problem is that you tried to make a rainbow out of the two articles and got lost in the glow of the color and your own arrogance.


Article 12, Sentence 1: And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid.

This sentence refers back to Article 11 and indicates that Regeneration is solely the work of God.

Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 1: But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

Notice the BUT and the THIS. The THIS is the REGENERATION of Article 11 and Article 12, Sentence 1.

Now what is said about THIS REGENERATION? It is IN NO WISE EFFECTED merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation.

That means just what it says. Regeneration is solely the work of God and is in no way effected by the external preaching of the gospel, etc..

Now look at the last part of this statement: [such] that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted.

Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 1 simply states, to those who can understand, that after man has been regenerated the matter, Salvation, is no longer in that person's power. Everything that is required has been accomplished. The external preaching of the gospel, moral suasion, or any such a mode of operation IN NO WISE EFFECTED THIS REGENERATION.

Now look at Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 2; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe.

There is that pesky BUT again. BUT IT IS EVIDENTLY A SUPERNATURAL WORKk. What is a supernatural work? It is REGENERATION. THIS REGENERATION not inferior in efficacy to creation. In fact Scripture states that after REGENERATION

2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice further: so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. They believe or exercise their God given faith after they have been regenerated, consistent with Ephesians 2:1-8.

Article 12, Last Sentence: Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.

The above is self explanatory to all except those blinded by their false and evil doctrine that God is unable to save but must rely on the will of man who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.

Finally your OP is pathetic in its ignorance and its arrogance!

I love you too!

Article 12. And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part,

Everything here points back to #11 that is why we posted it.



it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

At this point the process is not complete according to dortology. This statement makes that clear. To complete the dortology path to part two or the second phase of regeneration man must repent and believe.

but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares;

so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. - Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.
The Canons of Dordt ; h t t p colon back slash back slash dot p r c a dot o r g back slash c d under line text3 dot h t m l ; Aughst 4, 2009

Dortology is teaching that God saves a person (regenerates and imparts the gift of faith) which compells that person to do his part in regeneration repent and believe. We can say it is two regeneratins or phase one and two.

Man is doubly saved in the ACRT system of false teaching.

 

[Darrenss1]

Everything here points back to #11 that is why we posted it.

it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

Dortology is teaching that God saves a person (regenerates and imparts the gift of faith) which compells that person to do his part in regeneration repent and believe. We can say it is two regeneratins or phase one and two.

Man is doubly saved in the ACRT system of false teaching.

It would also mean that God ONLY regenerates those whom HE has elected to save, however it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; therefore IF this statement means what it says God has elected/regenerated/quickened..etc some and they resisted God, did not believe and died an unconverted unbeliever BUT Jesus raised them up for salvation anyway. Wow, that sure gets messy with the Calvinist view of Unconditional Election and Sovereignty of God, for the Calvinist view to fit into that model.

I completely understand if a Calvinist would like to agree that the Canons of Dordt section 11 needs swift editing to remove the embarassing contradiction to their theological system. Otherwise they'll have to explain how it fits in without playing literary games and deal with the actual statement as it reads.

:tonofbricks:

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

It would also mean that God ONLY regenerates those whom HE has elected to save, however it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; therefore IF this statement means what it says God has elected/regenerated/quickened..etc some and they resisted God, did not believe and died an unconverted unbeliever BUT Jesus raised them up for salvation anyway. Wow, that sure gets messy with the Calvinist view of Unconditional Election and Sovereignty of God, for the Calvinist view to fit into that model.

I completely understand if a Calvinist would like to agree that the Canons of Dordt section 11 needs swift editing to remove the embarassing contradiction to their theological system. Otherwise they'll have to explain how it fits in without playing literary games and deal with the actual statement as it reads.

:tonofbricks:

Darren

How can you hope to have a legitimate debate on doctrinal matters, when you and Ben are seriously lacking elementary English comprehension? However 'convoluted' the sentence structure may appear, it emphatically does not state a "2-stage" salvation process and never have those who hold to the Canons of Dort ever in their writings said that it does? They obviously knew what they meant.

That's the problem with this issue. You aren't even allowing the Reformed viewpoint to express itself. YOU are making us say something we deny, and when we do so, you claim we are not being forthright (or whatever word you wish to insert there).

I'll say it again. Benefactor has wrongly interpreted what the Canons of Dort state, and it is due to a very apparent lack of basic understanding of the English language. He has emphatically stated something that is false, and is guilty of a clear breach of the 9th commandment.

I still await an apology which if he had any Christian honesty about him, he would render to the sincere Christians on this forum who hold to the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Nothing was misrepresented. The article states:


God regenerates man (man is now spiritually alive/saved from death.)

Man believes.

Man is saved.


Unless you are going to say that regeneration is not salvation, then what this article says is that man is saved twice. First by the regeneration of God and then by the faith of man.






Clearly, "His part" is regeneration ("without the aid of man").

Afterward, man has the "power" to be regenerated.

When it says "to be regenerated or not" does that mean that man can say no to the regeneration that God has just done and therefore undo it?


This is what you believe?

Amy. Read it carefully. It does not say what Ben (and now you) says it does. This is a question of English competence. I have read 100's of works by Reformed authors. NOT ONE HAS EVER HELD TO THE FALSEHOOD THAT BEN is trying to say they do. You may not agree with Reformed theology, but at least have the Christian charity and human decency to accept their words as to what they believe.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Now aren't we the smug one! I welcome your challenge, lets get it on.

Let me see the anticedent to this in the first line of #12 is #11. Wonder why I list both articles.
Let's look at the wording:


Article 12. And this is the regeneration(pointing back to #11 and I totally agree that is why I included it in my post) so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation,

that after God has performed his part,

The words "after God has performed his part points back to Him regenerating the special picked few this is very clear and only a bimbo would miss it in this language. I am not sure what a bimbo is but it could be a lot of things.

it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;


Let me see this information tell us that God's part was regeneration spoken of in the previous words, Article 11 as noted. Then dort gives man the responsibility to set the second regeneration into order as noted in the actual language of the text.

Now we could look at it as Part one and two of regeneration, God administering part one by quickening the lost man back to life and then man doing the second part.

You may start eating your hat whenever you are ready.

Benefactor, your words reveal your heart. There are those on BB who sincerely do not agree with Reformed Theology. I respect that. I am happy to enter into Christian dialogue with them on the matter. But you are conceited, arrogant and contentious - and in this particular OP you are guilty of falsehood. The problem with responding to you is you are not wanting to know the truth, you are looking to carve another notch in your theological pistols or hang some Calvinist's scalp in your tent of ignorance.
Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

 

[Darrenss1]

How can you hope to have a legitimate debate on doctrinal matters, when you and Ben are seriously lacking elementary English comprehension? However 'convoluted' the sentence structure may appear, it emphatically does not state a "2-stage" salvation process and never have those who hold to the Canons of Dort ever in their writings said that it does? They obviously knew what they meant.

That's the problem with this issue. You aren't even allowing the Reformed viewpoint to express itself. YOU are making us say something we deny, and when we do so, you claim we are not being forthright (or whatever word you wish to insert there).

I'll say it again. Benefactor has wrongly interpreted what the Canons of Dort state, and it is due to a very apparent lack of basic understanding of the English language. He has emphatically stated something that is false, and is guilty of a clear breach of the 9th commandment.

I still await an apology which if he had any Christian honesty about him, he would render to the sincere Christians on this forum who hold to the Doctrines of Grace.

I admit to using satire as a means to make my point. However, in all seriousness you can't accuse someone of "it is due to a very apparent lack of basic understanding of the English language" because they read the statement "it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted" and asked for an explanation on what it means. It looks to me like an error of some soughts, taking into account the english langauge and all. Will you address the words in contention or not?

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

I admit to using satire as a means to make my point. However, in all seriousness you can't accuse someone of "it is due to a very apparent lack of basic understanding of the English language" because they read the statement "it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted" and asked for an explanation on what it means. It looks to me like an error of some soughts, taking into account the english langauge and all. Will you address the words in contention or not?

Darren

OK. I'm willing to deal with those words, but first have your read OldRegular's post on explaining them? Because he did quite an admirable job.

What we (Calvinist's) are saying is, you may not agree with our theological viewpoint, but it is wrong, very wrong, to make us say something that we aren't saying.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Or he could simply listen to some presentations by well known Calvinists such as Dr James White and/or his program the dividing line, that was helpful to me. In my case the church I attend is intolerant of Calvinism before I even knew what the details were, so I decided to check it out for myself.

Darren

No. If I'm going to debate what John Calvin taught, the best thing to do is read what John Calvin taught. Christian honesty demands we let the man speak for himself. It's not as if he didn't leave any writings, you know!:laugh:

 

[Darrenss1]

Now look at the last part of this statement: [such] that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted.

Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 1 simply states, to those who can understand, that after man has been regenerated the matter, Salvation, is no longer in that person's power. Everything that is required has been accomplished. The external preaching of the gospel, moral suasion, or any such a mode of operation IN NO WISE EFFECTED THIS REGENERATION.

I'm sorry but it still sounds like you said the opposite of what the phrase states??

"Now look at the last part of this statement: [such] that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted."

"to those who can understand, that after man has been regenerated the matter, Salvation, is no longer in that person's power."

Darren

 

[Lux et veritas]

Canons of Dort in updated English

Benefactor is saying the Canons of Dort teach that Calvinists teach 2 salvations or 2 stages in salvation. He then misinterprets the english rendering of that original document, and unaware of his lack of English competence has made a FALSE STATEMENT.

English in the 17th century was often written differently than now. Sentence structures could be confusing. But they were written very precisely.
Here it is in modern English. Note the bolded sentence which has become the pivot of this thread. Perhaps now we can bring this false accusation against Reformed Theology to an end.

An apology for promoting and defending a false representation of Calvinism is still (biblically) in order.

Article 11
The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion
Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.

Article 12
Regeneration a Supernatural Work
And this is the regeneration, the new creation, the raising from the dead, and the making alive so clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God works in us without our help. But this certainly does not happen only by outward teaching, by moral persuasion, or by such a way of working that, after God has done his work, it remains in man's power whether or not to be reborn or converted. Rather, it is an entirely supernatural work, one that is at the same time most powerful and most pleasing, a marvelous, hidden, and inexpressible work, which is not lesser than or inferior in power to that of creation or of raising the dead, as Scripture (inspired by the author of this work) teaches. As a result, all those in whose hearts God works in this marvelous way are certainly, unfailingly, and effectively reborn and do actually believe. And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, man himself, by that grace which he has received, is also rightly said to believe and to repent.

 

[Lux et veritas]

I'm sorry but it still sounds like you said the opposite of what the phrase states??

"Now look at the last part of this statement: [such] that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted."

"to those who can understand, that after man has been regenerated the matter, Salvation, is no longer in that person's power."

Darren

Darren, you need to read the whole sentence, not just the last part. The first part says that this regeneration that is wholly of God, in no wise (in no way) is accomplished in such a manner that after God has performed his part, that it still remains in the power of man to do anything about it independently. It is classic RT, and you may strongly disagree with it, but please, please, please, do not keep propagating the LIE that Benefactor has commenced this thread with.

Look at the whole sentence (or read it in the more modern English I posted a couple of posts back). You will find that this sentence is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

 

[Darrenss1]

Darren, you need to read the whole sentence, not just the last part. The first part says that this regeneration that is wholly of God, in no wise (in no way) is accomplished in such a manner that after God has performed his part, that it still remains in the power of man to do anything about it independently. It is classic RT, and you may strongly disagree with it, but please, please, please, do not keep propagating the LIE that Benefactor has commenced this thread with.

Look at the whole sentence (or read it in the more modern English I posted a couple of posts back). You will find that this sentence is saying the opposite of what you are claiming.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i...w.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

Ok, I got it. The first quote that Ben used was ambiguous in that particular phrase. I was reading "it still remains in the power of man.." as "it is still up to man whether or not he wants to be regenerated or not, or converted or unconverted". I know Calvinism does not teach that but rather was confused as to the way it was worded - ??

So I read power, as in will power, or choice for the reason of the wording NOT by my understanding of Calvinism. Hope that's clear. I do not plan on falsely representing the Calvinist position at any time, make no mistake about it, that's not me at all. :thumbs:

Darren

 

[Jarthur001]

So you deny that you believe that salvation precedes faith? Are you denying this or affirming it?

Ben,

Let me help you out on this one. Ordo Salutis is "the order of salvation". Salvation is the larger heading that contains a few elements within it. Have you ever heard the phrase...

"I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved"?

When a person says this, he is not talking about 3 salvations but talking about the many stages/elements of one salvation. Another word you can use is being delivered. Delivered means the same as being saved.

Within salvation the Bible talks about election, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification and a few other elements.

So you see why people were laughing? Faith is part of salvation. As is election and the new birth.

Now here is where the debate remains. In what order does this happen? Its the logical sequence of the elements which we debate about. We all believe these elements make up salvation, but we disagree which comes 1st.

I hope this helps.

James

 

[Benefactor]

Ben,

Let me help you out on this one. Ordo Salutis is "the order of salvation". Salvation is the larger heading that contains a few elements within it. Have you ever heard the phrase...

"I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved"?

When a person says this, he is not talking about 3 salvations but talking about the many stages/elements of one salvation. Another word you can use is being delivered. Delivered means the same as being saved.

Within salvation the Bible talks about election, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification and a few other elements.

So you see why people were laughing? Faith is part of salvation. As is election and the new birth.

Now here is where the debate remains. In what order does this happen? Its the logical sequence of the elements which we debate about. We all believe these elements make up salvation, but we disagree which comes 1st.

I hope this helps.

James

:BangHead: Oh, so that's it, my, my, my ABC, 123 kinda thing. Who would have ever thunk it

Son, let me set you straight. If you want to be Scriptural then follow the logical order of what the Bible teaches below. All that you read in number 3 happens in the same moment. Not a moment sooner or later. Latch on to the truth I am teaching you and you will be cured from your tulipitis and you will be able to rid yourself of the dortites.

1 Hear the gospel

2 Repent and believe gospel

3. Regenerated / saved / positional sanctified and adopted / born a gain / born from above / converted / became a new creation in Christ / justified / pass from death to life / have a new name written down in Heaven / in Christ / Christ in me / baptized by the Holy Spirit / elect in Christ / son of Abraham our father of faith / child of God /

Number three is simple terms is SAVED. I don't have a problem with the logical process of all these terms once you get to number three.

Everything in number 3 is after hearing the gospel and then repenting and believing.

Hopefully, this will get you back on the right track.

The OR of Dortology that which causes tulipitis a deadly doctrine that screws the mind up is still wrong.

 

[Jarthur001]

:BangHead:

This maybe the problem. Spend less time hitting your head and use your head to understand.

Oh, so that's it, my, my, my ABC, 123 kinda thing. Who would have ever thunk it

If you say so.

Son,

DAD?

let me set you straight.

ok

If you want to be Scriptural then follow the logical order of what the Bible teaches below.

indeed.

All that you read in number 3 happens in the same moment.

I guess you are saying that all of your list of numbers below happen "In Order" as you listed them, with all that is listed under 3 at the same moment.

This would mean that 1...Hearing the gospel happens 1st. Which by the way is what all Arminian believe. For a person that says they are not Arminian, you do post like one ben.

So now we are at the heart of the debate. It took sometime, but hey we got there.

Your 1st element...Hear the gospel.
How do dead men hear? Go to a graveyard and tell all those in the grave that if they only walk to you and stick out their hand, you will give them 10,000,000 bucks. Don't worry...If any dead person hears you say this and comes forward, I will supply all the money needed.

1 John 2..

5Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

This "love of the Father" is only in the believer.

Now please notice this passage
John 8..

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There reason they could not understand, is because they were "of their father the devil". That would mean they are NOT SAVED.

So how do you understand? The verse before tells us..

John 8

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Before you can love God you must be a child of God.

Not a moment sooner or later.

The key word is logical. Do you understand what that means?

Latch on to the truth

The Truth latched on to me

I am teaching you..

Can I call you "Master Ben"?

and you will be cured from your tulipitis

Which is a old phrase that a old anti-Calvinist use to say on here. He was banned a few years ago. You're not the same guy are you?

and you will be able to rid yourself of the dortites.

Wait. You said you wanted me to "latch on to the truth"....and now you seem to be saying you want me to get rid of the truth. Which do you want master?

1 Hear the gospel

2 Repent and believe gospel

3. Regenerated / saved / positional sanctified and adopted / born a gain / born from above / converted / became a new creation in Christ / justified / pass from death to life / have a new name written down in Heaven / in Christ / Christ in me / baptized by the Holy Spirit / elect in Christ / son of Abraham our father of faith / child of God /

Regenerated, born again, born from above, became a new creation in Christ, pass from death to life, and child of God all mean the same thing. Are you saying you believe in 6 new births? No need to reply...tis a joke ...master

Hopefully, this will get you back on the right track.

Keep working on me ben. You know how stupid we Calvinist are.

The OR of Dortology that which causes tulipitis a deadly doctrine that screws the mind up is still wrong.

yep...Me thinks you are our old friend from way back.

 

[Benefactor]

Can I call you "Master Ben"?

Yes, son you can.

The Order of Salvation according to Scripture:


1. Matthew’s

9: 2. And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

First, Jesus “SAW” their faith, Foreknowledge
Second, they believed
Third paralytic was healed and he was forgiven / saved


2. Mark’s

Same as Matthew - Mark 2: 5. And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

3. Luke’s

Same as Mark and Matthew Luke 5:20. Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

Bonus passage from Luke 7: 50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

4. John’s

John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
John 2: 16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

God loved the world - all of mankind
God gave His son
Whoever believes
Shall not perish
Will have eternal life


5. Acts

Acts 16: 31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Believe in the Lord Jesus
You will be saved

6. Romans

Romans 10: 9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Confess with mouth
Believe in your heart
Will be saved

7. I Cor.

I Cor. 21. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Foolish message of the Gospel
Believe
Save those that believe

9. 2 Corinthians

2 Corinthians 3: 16. but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Turn to the Lord
The veil is taken away / salvation

10. Galatians

Galatians 3: 2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Verse 26. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Faith first
Receive the Spirit as a result / salvation / sons of God

11. Ephesians

Eph 2:8 . For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith first
Saved second

12. Philippians

Philippians 3: 9. and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from {the} Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith, 10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11. in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Faith in Christ
Righteousness because of faith / Salvation
Know the power of the resurrection because of faith
Attain to the resurrection from the dead because of faith

13. Colossians

Colossians 1: 4. since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; and verses 13. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Faith in Christ Jesus
Resucued from the domain of darkness
Transferred to the kingdom of His believed Son
Redemption
Forgiveness of sin

14. I Thessalonians

I Thessalonians 2 13. For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted {it} not {as} the word of men, but {for} what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Received the word of God
Heard it from Paul
They believed
It performed its work in them / Salvation

15. II Thessalonians

2 Thessalonians 2: 3. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Called through the gospel
By faith in the truth
Through sanctification of the Spirit
Chosen from the beginning for salvation

16. I Timothy

I Timothy 2: 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time. And Chapter 4: 10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

God’s desire which is universal to save
The savior of all men especially those that believe

God desires
God dies for all
God saves all who believe in Christ

17. II Timothy

II Timothy 3: 15. and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

First Scripture make wise about salvation in Christ
Second it leads to salvation
Salvation is through faith in Christ
Faith in Christ results in salvation
18. Titus’ order of salvation

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, and 3: 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6. whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7. so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life. 8. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

The grace of God appeared
Bringing salvation to all men
Vs. 8 believed God
Shown mercy
Justified
Made heirs
Hope of eternal life
Careful to engage in good deeds

19. Hebrews


Hebrews 4:1. Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. Chapter 11 loaded with the OR

Hear the truth / good news
Faith first
Profit because of faith / the promise

21. James

James 2: 24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26. For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Faith demonstrated by works
Justification

22. I Peter

I Peter 1: who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4. to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5. who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Faith verse 5 that is foreseen (foreknowledge vs. 2
The word obey is substituted for faith in Christ as in verse 2
To understand the flow of these verses you have to reverse them.

Faith for a salvation
Protected by the power of God
Reserved in heaven
An inheritance
Caused to be born again according to His great mercy
Sanctified
Cleansed by the sprinkled blood
All these facts and details are foreknown by God “elect according to foreknowledge of God the Father

These verses here, if taken in context, are more than enough to properly categorize Calvinism, Reform Theology as a system of false belief. All that precedes the statement in verse 5 “through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed” is contingent on man’s faith in Christ not the other way around. The Logical order of the Order of Salvation can’t get any clearer than this.

Those of you on this site how are not blinded by the TULIP and Doctrines of Dortology by carefully looking at this verse can have great comfort that your view is Biblical, solid, sure, from God, God breathed, not twisted or re-defined but pure truth. Take courage and stand firm against all false teaching of Scripture.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Benefactor: I noticed how you have dealt with the "Inconvenient Truth" that his assertion that Calvinism teaches a 'second salvation' according to the Canons of Dort. You have simply ignored the fact that you have presented a falsehood, and refuse to admit it.

The issue is not whether you are a Calvinist or not, but whether you exhibit the grace of being a Christian. Up to now, your words leave a lot to be desired in that realm.

 

[OldRegular]

it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

At this point the process is not complete according to dortology. This statement makes that clear. To complete the dortology path to part two or the second phase of regeneration man must repent and believe.

The people who wrote the Canons of Dort were scholars which you evidently are not. Lux et veritas in an earlier post presents a version of the articles in question in modern English. However, Article 12 clearly states, even in the original translation, that Regeneration is the work of God, that it is a supernatural work, and nothing man can do can have any effect on that work of God.

You present a completely false interpretation of what Article 12 states and furthermore you know it. You simply cannot be that ignorant. That means you are knowingly telling a lie. Some posts by their nature cause disagreement but your intent appears to be malicious. In your OP you state:

Malicious post by Benefactor
The Tulip Troops Try To Teach That They are saved first then they believe they are saved the second time.

That simply is another malicious lie you are guilty of.

Frankly, I believe your intent in joining this Forum is malicious..

 

[Lux et veritas]

Ben, which comes first in Acts 13:48?
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1. "as many as were ordained to eternal life"
2. "believed".