Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[OldRegular]

Benefactor

The question I asked is simple. You don't even have to find it in Scripture. It should be a question to which you can quickly respond yet you refuse to do so. So I ask again:

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

 

[OldRegular]

There are countless scriptures that tell clearly of man's responsibility to receive Christ and his free will to do so. He can choose to receive the free gift or reject it. Salvation is still all of God, but God created us in His image, which includes personal volition. We have a mind, a will, a personality, knowledge of good and evil because we are created in the image of our Father. We are fallen, yes. But we have not lost the entire image.

Amy

You correctly state that there are countless Scripture that teach man's accountability before God. The question of the free will of man is a different proposition. Only one man and woman had free will, that was Adam and Eve. When they transgressed against God that free will was marred by sin. Rather than having a free will man's will is in bondage to his sin nature, the consequence of Adam's transgression. Now unregenerate man thinks he has a free will but he is delusional. Robert L. Reymond in his book A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith states [page 454]: "Before the fall man had both the obligation and the ability to obey God. As a result of the fall, he retained the former but lost the latter."

Scripture tells us regarding the sin nature of man:

Psalms 14:1-3. A Psalm of David.
1. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

It is my belief that the good that David mentions is that good which makes man righteous in the sight of God. John Gill says of the repetition there is none that doeth good, no, not one.: This is repeated partly to asseverate [declare earnestly] more strongly the depravity of mankind, and partly to express the universality of it; that there is no exception to it in any that descend from Adam by ordinary generation.

The Apostle Paul states in Romans 5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Now a few more passages of Scripture to indicate the condition of mankind:

Genesis 6:5. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matthew 7:18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

John 3:19, 20
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Notice that the Scripture says men in general, not just some men loved darkness rather than light. Also notice what God says about men in Psalms 14:1-3.

Romans 8:7-9
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[John Gill says of verse 7: These words contain a reason why the issue of carnal mindedness is death; because the carnal mind, the wisdom of the flesh, is not only an enemy, but enmity itself against God: against his being; it reasons against it; it wishes he was not; it forms unworthy notions of him; thinks him such an one as itself; and endeavours to bury him in forgetfulness, and erase out of its mind all memorials of him: it is at enmity against his perfections; either denying his omniscience; or arraigning his justice and faithfulness; or despising his goodness, and abusing his grace and mercy: it finds fault with, and abhors his decrees and purposes; quarrels with his providences; it is implacable against his word and Gospel; especially the particular doctrines of grace, the Father's grace in election, the Son's in redemption, and the Spirit's in regeneration; and has in the utmost contempt the ordinances and people of Christ. This enmity is universal, it is in all men in unregeneracy, either direct or indirect, hidden or more open; it is undeserved; it is natural and deeply rooted in the mind, and irreconcilable without the power and grace of God. ]

And that old familiar one 1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



The remedy lies specifically with God as shown below.

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 5:21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:21 [NASB] For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so THE SON ALSO GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE WISHES.

Notice that in the above Scripture only God is active, man is passive.

When you ask why one person, believes and another does not, Jesus has already given the answer.

Amy

I would love to see the answer.

We can choose or reject because God made us that way. His rules, His way.

God made us that way but Adam's transgression changed everything.

 

[Jerome]

"After awhile, as I expected, they fell to their usual amusement of calling names. They began to say what rank Arminianism this was; and another expression they were pleased to honor with the title of “Fullerism;” a title, by the way, so honorable that I could heartily have thanked them for appending it to what I had advanced. But to say that God should hear the prayer of natural men was something worse than Arminianism, if indeed anything could be worse to them. They quoted that counterfeit passage, “The prayer of the wicked is an abomination unto the Lord,” which I speedily answered by asking them if they would find me that text in the Word of God; for I ventured to assert that the devil was the author of that saying, and that it was not in the Bible at all. “The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination unto the Lord” is in the Bible, but that is a very different thing from the “prayer of the wicked;” and moreover there is a decided difference between the word wicked there intended and the natural man about whom we were controverting." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
When you ask why one person, believes and another does not, Jesus has already given the answer.

Originally Posted by OldRegular

Amy

I would love to see the answer.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


He won't come to the Light because he doesn't want his sins exposed by God. He must be aware then that there is a God and that He judges sin. He is not unable to come to God. He is unwilling.

 

[OldRegular]

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


He won't come to the Light because he doesn't want his sins exposed by God. He must be aware then that there is a God and that He judges sin. He is not unable to come to God. He is unwilling.

Amy

John 3:20 is speaking of mankind in general; that is all mankind loves darkness rather than light. Now that does not mean that all mankind perform equally evil deeds but that all are sinners before God. As Scripture says: There is none righteous and there is none that doeth good.

The question is: Why is it that some people respond to the Gospel and others do not.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy

John 3:20 is speaking of mankind in general; that is all mankind loves darkness rather than light. Now that does not mean that all mankind perform equally evil deeds but that all are sinners before God. As Scripture says: There is none righteous and there is none that doeth good.

The question is: Why is it that some people respond to the Gospel and others do not.

There are two groups of people spoken of by Jesus. In John 3:20, He is speaking of those who won't come to the Light because they do not want their sins exposed.
In verse 21, He is speaking of people who do come to the Light because they have believed God (Father). "Their deeds were wrought in God". They have believed the truth of God the Father, therefore they come to the Son.
He does not say that "all" humanity rejects the Light. Verse 21 makes that clear.

 

[Benefactor]

Amy

John 3:20 is speaking of mankind in general; that is all mankind loves darkness rather than light. Now that does not mean that all mankind perform equally evil deeds but that all are sinners before God. As Scripture says: There is none righteous and there is none that doeth good.

The question is: Why is it that some people respond to the Gospel and others do not.

Because they make a choice of which they can. They are faced with a choice when they hear the gospel, which is light accompanied with the convicting power of the HS and this is not regeneration but opening of the eyes to truth and conviction of the person concerning their sin, who they are and of God and who He is and what He has provided.

All a man has is to receive the grace and mercy of God because he cannot save himself he must trust in God's word and in the savior Jesus Christ and all men have this capacity. Yes, all men are sinners but all men are created in the image of God and can believe when they hear the truth. Most don't but some do. It is that simple.

 

[Benefactor]

There are two groups of people spoken of by Jesus. In John 3:20, He is speaking of those who won't come to the Light because they do not want their sins exposed.
In verse 21, He is speaking of people who do come to the Light because they have believed God (Father). "Their deeds were wrought in God". They have believed the truth of God the Father, therefore they come to the Son.
He does not say that "all" humanity rejects the Light. Verse 21 makes that clear.

Hi Amy,

Remember the occasions that Paul spoke to his readers and said something like this, "And some of you were" They were lost and when they beleived they were saved and did not do the things of he past. If you look at J3:20 in that light it makes perfect sense.

I Cor. 6:9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10. nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Calvinist isolates 3:20 to support their view that God regenerated a soul first before saving faith to support their view of the order of salvation. We know that this is not the case. Scripture must interpret Scripture. Viewing it their way creates a contradiction with clear passages showing as I have the order of salvation. Paul acknowledges it in the scripture above.

It is true that once regeneration happens / salvation / born again etc that we are new creatures in Christ but we get there by faith and until we are regenerated we are not different from those in the first part of verse 20.

The evidence is overwhelming in the Bible that a person who is not saved does not seek the light but after conversion he does. There is that moment of conversion where God opens the eyes by hearing the truth and at that point man must make a decision. This is abundantly clear in the Scripture and appeases any form of reverse order of salvation - regeneration then faith is false and not taught in Scripture.

Jesus is God and he said 50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Faith first Salvation Second

 

[OldRegular]

There are two groups of people spoken of by Jesus. In John 3:20, He is speaking of those who won't come to the Light because they do not want their sins exposed.
In verse 21, He is speaking of people who do come to the Light because they have believed God (Father). "Their deeds were wrought in God". They have believed the truth of God the Father, therefore they come to the Son.
He does not say that "all" humanity rejects the Light. Verse 21 makes that clear.

I disagree. Verse 3:20 is speaking of all mankind. It goes without saying that all do not reject the Light. You say those in verse 21 come to the light because they have believed. The question is why do some, who love darkness rather than light, believe while others do not? I can answer that question. You really haven't yet!

 

[Benefactor]

Because they make a choice of which they can. They are faced with a choice when they hear the gospel, which is light accompanied with the convicting power of the HS and this is not regeneration but opening of the eyes to truth and conviction of the person concerning their sin, who they are and of God and who He is and what He has provided.

All a man has is to receive the grace and mercy of God because he cannot save himself he must trust in God's word and in the savior Jesus Christ and all men have this capacity. Yes, all men are sinners but all men are created in the image of God and can believe when they hear the truth. Most don't but some do. It is that simple.

 

[OldRegular]

The question is why do some, who love darkness rather than light, believe while others do not? I can answer that question. Free willers can't!

 

[Benefactor]

The question is why do some, who love darkness rather than light, believe while others do not? I can answer that question. Free willers can't!

Because they make a choice of which they can. They are faced with a choice when they hear the gospel, which is light accompanied with the convicting power of the HS and this is not regeneration but opening of the eyes to truth and conviction of the person concerning their sin, who they are and of God and who He is and what He has provided.

All a man has is to receive the grace and mercy of God because he cannot save himself he must trust in God's word and in the savior Jesus Christ and all men have this capacity. Yes, all men are sinners but all men are created in the image of God and can believe when they hear the truth. Most don't but some do. It is that simple.

Maybe changing the color will you understand.

 

[Tom Butler]

Maybe rephrasing the question will help move things along.

What makes the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?

Is the one who responds smarter, more perceptive, more tender-hearted, more sensitive? Is he more disposed to respond than another who doesn't. Does one possess more ability to choose than another. Did he have a better raising?

The question goes beyond the answer, well one responded and the other didn't. The question is, what was the difference.

Then, maybe the question isn't, what made the difference. It may be, as Paul asked in I Corinthians 4:7 "Who makes you to differ from one another? And what do you have that you didn't receive?".....

 

[OldRegular]

Maybe rephrasing the question will help move things along.

What makes the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?

Is the one who responds smarter, more perceptive, more tender-hearted, more sensitive? Is he more disposed to respond than another who doesn't. Does one possess more ability to choose than another. Did he have a better raising?

The question goes beyond the answer, well one responded and the other didn't. The question is, what was the difference.

Then, maybe the question isn't, what made the difference. It may be, as Paul asked in I Corinthians 4:7 "Who makes you to differ from one another? And what do you have that you didn't receive?".....

Thanks Tom! Good points! Now to wait for the answers!

 

[Benefactor]

Maybe rephrasing the question will help move things along.

What makes the difference between the one who responds to the gospel and the one who does not?

Is the one who responds smarter, more perceptive, more tender-hearted, more sensitive? Is he more disposed to respond than another who doesn't. Does one possess more ability to choose than another. Did he have a better raising?

The question goes beyond the answer, well one responded and the other didn't. The question is, what was the difference.

Then, maybe the question isn't, what made the difference. It may be, as Paul asked in I Corinthians 4:7 "Who makes you to differ from one another? And what do you have that you didn't receive?".....

Of course you are framing the argument to where any answer I give is already "defeated" by reason of the fact that you have within your statement ruled out the answer.

I can't make you accept my answer anymore than you can me of yours. You and I both know this so all we have between our conversations is posturing.

Scripture teaches that regeneration is second and faith is first and we are told we must believe to be saved. I personally see God as fare, not claiming to understand all his workings, but accepting His love and grace. Man has free will to receive or reject Christ and all the post you or any Calvinist makes won't alter truth.

 

[Benefactor]

Saved By Grace To Faith?
Submitted by WilliamBirch on Tue, 10/28/2008 - 10:34am
Is the grace of God which leads a sinner to salvation by faith or to faith? In Scripture it is by faith, in Calvinism it is to faith. The Calvinist incorrectly assumes that God's grace is directly related to regeneration in order for the sinner to then have faith in Christ (which is also a gift, in the absolute sense).
He is left to conclude that grace for salvation is not by faith but to faith, since salvation and election is by the unconditional choice of God. This "faith" seems to be one of proxy, for it is not the sinner's faith, but a faith given to him by God. This is an alien faith. It did not derive from the sinner but was (somehow) "planted within" him. The Scripture behind this idea (so admits the Calvinist) is Philippians 1:29, which reads, "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (NASB).
H t t p : // evangelicalarminians . org / category / 2 / 12

 

[canadyjd]

Scripture teaches that regeneration is second and faith is first and we are told we must believe to be saved.

Scripture teaches that God acts first in salvation and man responds to His intervention.

That we respond with faith in no way deminishes the fact that God has intervened in our lives first, according to His purpose and plan and mercy and grace.

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture teaches that God acts first in salvation and man responds to His intervention.

That we respond with faith in no way deminishes the fact that God has intervened in our lives first, according to His purpose and plan and mercy and grace.

peace to youraying:

Isn't God looking for Adam the first record of that in the Bible?

 

[Benefactor]

Scripture teaches that God acts first in salvation and man responds to His intervention.

That we respond with faith in no way deminishes the fact that God has intervened in our lives first, according to His purpose and plan and mercy and grace.

peace to youraying:

Your statement without explanation is acceptable. When it is not is when the intervention of God is called new birth first and faith next. That is not taught in Scripture. However, the word is given, truth, and man hears and God opens the eyes of his heart with the word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, which is not regeneration for that follows what man does if he does it and that is believe, repent and confess Jesus then and only then as the Scripture over and over states is new birth imparted, given, made to happen by the Holy Spirit. Any other teaching is a direct violation of God's word and is declared as false doctrine. Salvation is after faith never before.

 

[Darrenss1]

Of course you are framing the argument to where any answer I give is already "defeated" by reason of the fact that you have within your statement ruled out the answer.

I can't make you accept my answer anymore than you can me of yours. You and I both know this so all we have between our conversations is posturing.

Scripture teaches that regeneration is second and faith is first and we are told we must believe to be saved. I personally see God as fare, not claiming to understand all his workings, but accepting His love and grace. Man has free will to receive or reject Christ and all the post you or any Calvinist makes won't alter truth.

Besides being Totally Depraved is different to being Depraved. The question removes man's ability to respond to God and puts ALL men as equally light depraved, revelation depraved, truth depraved, sin loving, God haters. Why does one respond and the other doesn't? You mean you have 2 equally "Totally" and utterly depraved individuals that God regenerates only 1 (indiscriminately??) to Christ but chooses to not regenerate the other? OR 2 depraved individuals each with the ability to respond to the light of truth in Christ and God (but NOT the ability to save themselves); God draws both BUT only one of the 2 men responds positively to God. 1 is humble and comes to repentence and faith in Christ, the other is prideful and responds to God to the negative; Both responded to God.

Darren