Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[Darrenss1]

You are wrong again.

For the record I have heard non Calvinist preachers refer to total depravity but not the same Total Depravity that Calvinism teaches. Just to let you know. That's why I refer to fallen man being "depraved" rather than "totally depraved", to save confusion.

Darren

 

[Jarthur001]

For the record I have heard non Calvinist preachers refer to total depravity but not the same Total Depravity that Calvinism teaches. Just to let you know. That's why I refer to fallen man being "depraved" rather than "totally depraved", to save confusion.

Darren

The key word is "TOTAL". It is total, or it is not.

 

[Darrenss1]

The key word is "TOTAL". It is total, or it is not.

It is total but not diminished of the ability to be drawn by God and respond to that drawing by believing and therefore being saved. Regeneration is not drawing; therefore since regeneration follows faith and salvation, an unsaved person needs only to respond to God's drawing to be saved. The Calvinist view of the total depravity of man has that man cannot even be drawn without being regenerated.

Were OT saints regenerated in order to obey and follow God? They should have been Totally Depraved before coming to live by faith in God?

Darren

 

[Jarthur001]

It is total but not diminished of the ability to be drawn by God and respond to that drawing by believing and therefore being saved. Regeneration is not drawing; therefore since regeneration follows faith and salvation, an unsaved person needs only to respond to God's drawing to be saved. The Calvinist view of the total depravity of man has that man cannot even be drawn without being regenerated.

Were OT saints regenerated in order to obey and follow God? They should have been Totally Depraved before coming to live by faith in God?

Darren

So you would agree with.."If I ought I can"?

 

[Winman]

Not all Calvinists agree on their own terms.

Total Depravity is misleading, the proper term should be "total inability". They believe the unsaved, unregenerate man incapable of responding positively to the gospel.

Now how 'bout one of you Calvinists attempting to answer the question I have posed several times now?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Is there a reason none of you Calvinists have tried to answer my question?

 

[canadyjd]

Now how 'bout one of you Calvinists attempting to answer the question I have posed several times now?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Is there a reason none of you Calvinists have tried to answer my question?

I don't see a question there, but if you are looking for comments on the passage, I would say the verse has already been qualified by....

John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."

Based on the context, therefore, I would say that "they that hear" are the ones the Son "wishes" to give life to.

So, the Son gave them life, they are no longer dead and therefore, they hear and believe and have life.

What is absolutely clear is that the Son is the one who decides whom He shall give life to.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

I don't see a question there, but if you are looking for comments on the passage, I would say the verse has already been qualified by....

John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."

Based on the context, therefore, I would say that "they that hear" are the ones the Son "wishes" to give life to.

So, the Son gave them life, they are no longer dead and therefore, they hear and believe and have life.

What is absolutely clear is that the Son is the one who decides whom He shall give life to.

peace to youraying:

You have missed the point. How can they hear if they are dead? It does not say that they are given life and then they hear. They hear and respond while they are dead.

 

[Darrenss1]

So you would agree with.."If I ought I can"?

This is one example there are literally 100's -

So all in Nineveh being Totally Depraved responded to God because they were ALL regenerated??

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

According to Calvinism a Totally Depraved unregenerate sinner cannot respond to God.... That must mean that any righteous person or good works in the OT could not of been done by Totally Depraved unregenerate sinners.... Or Total Depravity does not mean what Calvinist claim it means.

Darren

 

[canadyjd]

You have missed the point. How can they hear if they are dead? It does not say that they are given life and then they hear. They hear and respond while they are dead.

You missed the point. Jesus said He gives life to whom He wishes. Salvation is in the hands of God, not men.

peace to youraying:

 

[Darrenss1]

Not all Calvinists agree on their own terms.

Total Depravity is misleading, the proper term should be "total inability". They believe the unsaved, unregenerate man incapable of responding positively to the gospel.

Or they are NOT able to respond positively to God period OT or NT, unless God first regenerates them.

Darren

 

[Amy.G]

You missed the point. Jesus said He gives life to whom He wishes. Salvation is in the hands of God, not men.

peace to youraying:

Of course He gives life to those He wishes. He wishes to give life to those who "hear". He gives life to those who put their trust in Him.


Please answer.
Cal's say that the "dead" cannot hear. John 5:25 says the "dead hear". How do you explain the dead being able to hear?

 

[Winman]

You missed the point. Jesus said He gives life to whom He wishes. Salvation is in the hands of God, not men.

peace to youraying:

Come on, let's try being honest here, the verse clearly and plainly says the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear will live.

So, they hear when they are dead, not regenerated as Calvinism falsely teaches.

I bet even you do not believe this answer you gave.

 

[canadyjd]

Of course He gives life to those He wishes. He wishes to give life to those who "hear". He gives life to those who put their trust in Him.

They are not able to "hear" because they are dead. He gives life to whom He wishes, they can now hear because they are no longer dead.... because He gave them life and now they hear and believe.

Please answer.
Cal's say that the "dead" cannot hear. John 5:25 says the "dead hear". How do you explain the dead being able to hear?

I already showed you the scripture that says Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. He is talking about people who are spiritually dead. They put their trust in Him because He gave them new life.

peace to youraying:

 

[Tom Butler]

You have missed the point. How can they hear if they are dead? It does not say that they are given life and then they hear. They hear and respond while they are dead.

The same way Lazerus heard Jesus and came out of the tomb.

Now, we had a nice pleasant discussion in our Bible study one Wednesday night about whether Lazerus heard Jesus because he was already alive; or whether it was Jesus' shout to come out which awakened Lazerus.

I still remember my Dad coming in early in the morning and saying, "Time to get up." It was his voice that woke me up. And I heard him. And got up.

Amy, this is how one hears when they are dead.

 

[Winman]

They are not able to "hear" because they are dead. He gives life to whom He wishes, they can now hear because they are no longer dead.... because He gave them life and now they hear and believe.I already showed you the scripture that says Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. He is talking about people who are spiritually dead. They put their trust in Him because He gave them new life.

peace to youraying:

That's absurd. If God gave them life first, then the verse would say the living hear. It says the dead hear.

 

[Amy.G]

They are not able to "hear" because they are dead.

peace to youraying:

Jhn 5:24 ¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

You are disputing scripture! It says the dead shall hear. Not the living shall hear.

Verse 24 is clear. Believe and live. Not live and believe.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, this is how one hears when they are dead.

I know how the dead hear. They hear through the word of God.

The problem we are addressing is one that Calvinists have created by saying that the dead cannot hear the voice of God. John 5:25 clearly states that the dead shall hear.

 

[canadyjd]

Come on, let's try being honest here, the verse clearly and plainly says the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear will live.

So, they hear when they are dead, not regenerated as Calvinism falsely teaches.

The verse I quoted clearly and plainly says that the Son gives life to whom He wishes. It is within that context that the verse AmyG quoted appears.... "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God..."

Clearly, then, Jesus decides whom He shall give life, calls them, they hear and live.

I bet even you do not believe this answer you gave.

I always believe what scripture says in the context it is written.

If my understanding of the passage is contrary, I change my mind to conform to scripture.

What I do not do is ignore the passages that don't fit what I want to believe.

So, you have lost your bet.

peace to youraying:

 

[Darrenss1]

They are not able to "hear" because they are dead. He gives life to whom He wishes, they can now hear because they are no longer dead.... because He gave them life and now they hear and believe.I already showed you the scripture that says Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. He is talking about people who are spiritually dead. They put their trust in Him because He gave them new life.

peace to youraying:

They are dead, as in dead. Not spirittually dead but dead. That is dead, as in their bodied were dead and buried. Hope I explained clearly what dead means in the context.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Therefore those that hear will hear to be resurrected from the dead, their eternal future is locked in at that stage. Whether they have done evil or good they will both HEAR.

Darren

 

[canadyjd]

I know how the dead hear. They hear through the word of God.

The problem we are addressing is one that Calvinists have created by saying that the dead cannot hear the voice of God. John 5:25 clearly states that the dead shall hear.

Amy.G, you keep ignoring the context.

Jesus said in 5:21 that He gives life to whom He wishes. The reason the dead "hear", then, is plainly revealed to be because the Son wished it to be so.

But, as we are simply going around and around, let me bid you good-night.

peace to youraying: