Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[OldRegular]

Old Regular

Three or four times I have presented John 5:24-25 that I believe prove an unsaved, unregenerate man can hear and respond to the gospel. Why have none of you Calvinists answered these verses?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Verse 24 shows that they that hear the word of God and believe receive everlasting life at that instant (hath), and are passed FROM death unto life.

Verse 25 shows that the dead can hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

What do you have to say of these verses?

Take those verses in context:

John 5:18-25
18. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23. That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Notice that verse 21 states that Jesus Christ quickens [makes spiritually alive] those whom He will. Verse 25 tells us that those who are spiritually dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Only those spiritually dead who hear the Voice of the Son of God shall live. Isn't that consistent with Ephesians 2:4,5 which states:

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Now obviously when God the Holy Spirit made alive those who were spiritually dead [in the above passage] there was some action on the part of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus Christ raised Lazarus from physical death did not He speak: Lazarus, come forth. [John 11:43] The voice of Jesus Christ raised the physically dead. Certainly the voice of the Son of God can raise those who are spiritually dead. That is exactly what verse 25 teaches and as I said is totally consistent with what happens in Ephesians 2:4, 5. Again verse 25 tells us that only those who hear the voice of the Son of God shall live. Someone will accuse me of saying that the spiritually dead will hear an audible voice. I am certainly not saying that. I am simply indicating some action on the part of the Holy Spirit takes place in regeneration as discussed in Ephesians 2. Certainly Jesus Christ in discussing the rebirth [John 3] did not indicate any audible voice, in fact perhaps the opposite [John 3:7, 8]:

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

As for verses 24, 25 I have clearly stated on the basis of Ephesians 2:1-10 that when the unregenerate person is made alive by the Holy Spirit then he is given the faith to respond to the Gospel Call. Furthermore, it is certain that he will hear the Gospel Call and respond; the Gospel Call then becomes the Effectual Call [verses 24, 25 above]. I don't believe that those of us who believe in the Doctrines of Grace would argue that regeneration [as indicated in the passage from Ephesians] is the completion of Salvation. In an earlier post I presented a number of events that occur in the process of Salvation. It is certain that those who are regenerated will experience all aspects of Salvation. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: [Philippians 1:6]

1. Election
2. Regeneration and
3. Union with Jesus Christ
4. Effectual Calling
5. Conversion
5a. Saving Faith
5b. Repentance
6. Pardon
7. Justification [by faith]
8. Adoption
9. Sanctification
10. Perseverance
11. Assurance
12. Glorification

 

[Amy.G]

1. Election
2. Regeneration and
3. Union with Jesus Christ
4. Effectual Calling
5. Conversion
5a. Saving Faith
5b. Repentance
6. Pardon
7. Justification [by faith]
8. Adoption
9. Sanctification
10. Perseverance
11. Assurance
12. Glorification

This list has union with Christ (salvation) occurring before one is even called. Being converted (saved) before faith or repentance.


This is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[Winman]

No Darren, verse 25 is different from verse 28.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The resurrection is future. Jesus said these things were happening NOW.

And he uses different terms in vs. 28.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus does not say the dead in vs. 28, he says "all that are in the graves". He also does not say "and now is".

Vs. 28 is speaking of the resurrection. But the unsaved physically dead will not live in the resurrection, they shall be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

I believe vs. 25 is speaking of the spiritually dead, but physically alive. I believe vs. 28 is speaking of the physically dead, whether they be spiritually alive or dead.

I could possibly be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

 

[Winman]

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

I agree with this 100%, but Eph 1:13 shows that a man first hears the gospel, then believes, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So yes, the unsaved, unregenerate man can hear the word of God. And if he believes, he is then sealed with the Holy Spirit. And it is the Spirit that quickens and regenerates a man.

We are just going in circles, you will forever ignore the easily understood order of events in salvation shown in Eph 1:13.

 

[Winman]

There are so many verses that contradict Calvinism really. Here is yet another one.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Once again, first the word of God (the gospel) which is the power unto salvation to every one that believeth.

That's enough for me tonight.

 

[Darrenss1]

No Darren, verse 25 is different from verse 28.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The resurrection is future. Jesus said these things were happening NOW.

And he uses different terms in vs. 28.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus does not say the dead in vs. 28, he says "all that are in the graves". He also does not say "and now is".

Vs. 28 is speaking of the resurrection. But the unsaved physically dead will not live in the resurrection, they shall be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

I believe vs. 25 is speaking of the spiritually dead, but physically alive. I believe vs. 28 is speaking of the physically dead, whether they be spiritually alive or dead.

I could possibly be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

I see your point but I don't think it fits to be honest. Verse 28 recaps 25 and follows up with 29 that's the context as I see it.

John
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The Father has given the Son the right of judgment even to those whom are dead and buried, that's how I see the explanation and context.

Darren

 

[OldRegular]

I agree with this 100%, but Eph 1:13 shows that a man first hears the gospel, then believes, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So yes, the unsaved, unregenerate man can hear the word of God. And if he believes, he is then sealed with the Holy Spirit. And it is the Spirit that quickens and regenerates a man.

We are just going in circles, you will forever ignore the easily understood order of events in salvation shown in Eph 1:13.

You are attempting to make what Paul records in Ephesians chronological. That is not necessarily so. Simply note that Jesus Christ talked about the rebirth in John 3:3 and belief in John 3:16. That would mean rebirth [regeneration] would occur before belief according to your rationale.

 

[OldRegular]

This list has union with Christ (salvation) occurring before one is even called. Being converted (saved) before faith or repentance.


This is not what the Bible teaches.

Amy

I believe that Union with Christ occurs when those who are spiritually dead are made alive. Notice that Ephesians 2:4,5 states that we are made alive together with Jesus Christ:

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Also please notice that I show faith and repentance as the aspects of Conversion. [Page 8 ,post #73]

4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God.

 

[Darrenss1]

Again verse 25 tells us that only those who hear the voice of the Son of God shall live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

But

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Verse 28 and 29 are the same sentence... IF hearing is a metaphor for being regenerated than ALL will be regenerated since ALL will hear. :laugh:

Darren

 

[Amy.G]

Seeing that this thread is about to come to a close, I will end my part of the debate. I do not agree with the teachings of Calvinism and believe them to be anti-scriptural. I do not believe this because I am arrogant enough to think I can save myself. I believe the way that I do because it is what I see in scripture. So for me, it is not arrogance but obedience to what I see and understand in God's word. I think the Bible is clear that man has a will that can be exercised to receive or reject Christ. I believe God gave us this marvelous gift of free will because we are created in His image and He commands that we use it wisely and to His glory. This is why we are held responsible for not accepting His offer of salvation.
Anyway, I hope I haven't created enemies during this debate, because I believe we are all brothers and sisters in Christ even though we have very different views. :1_grouphug:

 

[Benefactor]

If you mean ...do I believe Regeneration comes before Faith? Yes. Tis the gospel man.

Thanks for stating what you believe. We disagree but I consider you a brother in Christ. We may have and share strong views about our convections but in the end only the save will be in glory regardless of the order of salvation. God is sovereign regardless of how we see his sovereignty and we mortal men cannot change what He ordains, permits, and brings to pass.

To God we give all the Glory, Praise, and Honor.

 

[Darrenss1]

No Darren, verse 25 is different from verse 28.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The resurrection is future. Jesus said these things were happening NOW.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

I think the "The hour is coming, and now is" refers to those who can pass from death to life and live forever having eternal life in Christ through faith in Christ, though they may physically die; because Jesus is there presently to save and give His life, the cross/resurrection..etc

Anyway...

Darren

 

[Benefactor]

1. Election
2. Regeneration and
3. Union with Jesus Christ
4. Effectual Calling
5. Conversion
5a. Saving Faith
5b. Repentance
6. Pardon
7. Justification [by faith]
8. Adoption
9. Sanctification
10. Perseverance
11. Assurance
12. Glorification

Thanks for indirectly answering my question. It's OK to be wrong if you are willing to be right. Be corrected and accept the order of salvation Jesus taught and truth will be on your side concerning this matter.

My dear friend, who believes the order of salvation incorrectly, I consider you a brother in Christ and while we disagree one day perhaps you will simply accept the words of Jesus "Your faith has saved you; go in peace".

Words of encouragement:

Proverbs 11:30. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

For God so loved the world - all mankind.

 

[Darrenss1]

My dear friend, who believes the order of salvation incorrectly, I consider you a brother in Christ and while we disagree one day perhaps you will simply accept the words of Jesus "Your faith has saved you; go in peace".

Amen. Once we get past the saving stage we can let Jesus resolve the dispute over the means one day in heaven or the new earth, whichever one pleases.

:laugh:

Darren

 

[Benefactor]

Amen. Once we get past the saving stage we can let Jesus resolve the dispute over the means one day in heaven or the new earth, whichever one pleases.

:laugh:

Darren

I am a dispensationalist so Earth in the millennial kingdom is fine for me. I wonder if I will be able to speak Hebrew then.:wavey:

 

[Darrenss1]

I am a dispensationalist so Earth in the millennial kingdom is fine for me. I wonder if I will be able to speak Hebrew then.:wavey:

So am I and I'll be raptured before the millennial kingdom (hoping for the upper taker not the undertaker). :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

[Benefactor]

So am I and I'll be raptured before the millennial kingdom (hoping for the upper taker not the undertaker). :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

Me too; I would think you are a big David Jeremiah fan. I think he is a 4 point Calvinist. He is one of my favorite speakers.

 

[Darrenss1]

Me too; I would think you are a big David Jeremiah fan. I think he is a 4 point Calvinist. He is one of my favorite speakers.

I don't think anyone could guess those whom I have listened to. A big influence for me was AW Tozar, I have so much of his sermons, what a man of God!! Dr McGee and William Craig Lane, to name some others. I also listen to some Calvinist such as Greg Koukl and James white more because of apologetics than theology, also they are a good example of a christian, although theology is a big issue on any front. :thumbsup:

Darren

 

[Jarthur001]

This is one example there are literally 100's -

This does not answer the question. It is a yes or no question.

So all in Nineveh being Totally Depraved responded to God because they were ALL regenerated??

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Who's idea was it to go to Nineveh? Did a people gather and pray for God to send someone? NO.

Did one godly man ask God to send someone? NO

Who's idea was it? It was someones CHOICE. If it was GODS CHOICE....they were GODS ELECT

Now...WHY NINEVEH???? Why not Egypt?

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

ok

According to Calvinism a Totally Depraved unregenerate sinner cannot respond to God....

ok

That must mean that any righteous person or good works in the OT could not of been done by Totally Depraved unregenerate sinners....

If it is true righteous works, you are right.

Or Total Depravity does not mean what Calvinist claim it means.

Poor Logic. You have made a major jump with tons of gaps left unanswered.

Darren

This is what I asked...

do you believe "if I ought, I can"?

or...if God commands me to do something, I am able to do what he commands for he has already gave me what I need to do his commands. Its just a matter of me choosing to do it or not. AND...(this is key) I can do his command with no extra help from God. All men can just say yes to God at any time for it is within their own...ALREADY GIVEN TO ALL MEN "God power" to do so, the same power that all men have from the beginning. They need only to ..just say yes. Its up to their own will.

This is what...if I ought, I can... means

do you agree or disagree with "if I ought, I can"?

 

[Darrenss1]

Who's idea was it to go to Nineveh? Did a people gather and pray for God to send someone? NO.

Did one godly man ask God to send someone? NO

Who's idea was it? It was someones CHOICE. If it was GODS CHOICE....they were GODS ELECT

Again this to me is inference based upon the presupposition of regeneration preceding faith or a positive response to the preaching of God/repentance..etc. And as long as one continues to assume Total Depravity means total inability to respond to God than the rest of the assumptions follow that same premise from Total Depravity. All sinners have to be regenerated first, from Adam all the way through to today in 2009. Yet there is no scripture really that dead clearly teaches regeneration preceding Salvation.

Poor Logic. You have made a major jump with tons of gaps left unanswered.

In fact quite the opposite, since man can respond to God and the gospel as that is the means among others God uses to draw ALL men to faith in Christ. Man can reject and resist God yet also they can and are able to accept, than repent, believe and receive salvation through Christ. The Calvinist view has that man cannot resist and are locked into believing no matter what.

do you believe "if I ought, I can"?

Sure, according to how I understand it certainly.

or...if God commands me to do something, I am able to do what he commands for he has already gave me what I need to do his commands. Its just a matter of me choosing to do it or not. AND...(this is key) I can do his command with no extra help from God. All men can just say yes to God at any time for it is within their own...ALREADY GIVEN TO ALL MEN "God power" to do so, the same power that all men have from the beginning. They need only to ..just say yes. Its up to their own will.

This is what...if I ought, I can... means

do you agree or disagree with "if I ought, I can"?

So no man can resist, rebel or put off what they ought to do from God? No man that can ought, cannot refuse to ought? Although man can ought, and should ought, can he that should ought decide to not ought..?? Indeed by his free will he can say "yes" but has stubbornly said "no". :laugh:

Darren