Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[Allan]

or...if God commands me to do something, I am able to do what he commands for he has already gave me what I need to do his commands. Its just a matter of me choosing to do it or not. AND...(this is key) I can do his command with no extra help from God. All men can just say yes to God at any time for it is within their own...ALREADY GIVEN TO ALL MEN "God power" to do so, the same power that all men have from the beginning. They need only to ..just say yes. Its up to their own will.

This is what...if I ought, I can... means

do you agree or disagree with "if I ought, I can"?

What exactly are you saying? You lost me brother.

If you are asking if he holds to Pelagianism then ask him:
Do you believe that man can come to God at anytime he so chooses, without divine aid of anykind, including grace?

If you are asking if he holds to a semi-pelagianism view then ask:
Do you believe that man can come to God at anytime he so chooses, but realizing that he will fall short calls out to God, who rewards him by giving him the grace needed to be saved.

If you are asking if he holds to the biblical model, then ask him:
Do you believe that a man of and by himself, in his natural or depraved state, will never seek after God, understand spiritual things/truths unless God first come to that man and move upon him in grace and in power and ministry of the Holy Spirit?


Darrenss1 - Total depravity is illistrative theat man of and by himself will not seek after God, know or even care about anything having to do with God. THis is the result of his depraved nature, and since he will 'never' seek (and such) without divine help, he is totally depraved.

 

[Jarthur001]

Was asked....do you believe "if I ought, I can"?

Sure, according to how I understand it certainly.

So no man can resist, rebel or put off what they ought to do from God? No man that can ought, cannot refuse to ought? Although man can ought, and should ought, can he that should ought decide to not ought..?? Indeed by his free will he can say "yes" but has stubbornly said "no". :laugh:

Darren

Again I rest my case.

 

[Jarthur001]

What exactly are you saying? You lost me brother.

If you are asking if he holds to Pelagianism then ask him:
Do you believe that man can come to God at anytime he so chooses, without divine aid of anykind, including grace?

If you are asking if he holds to a semi-pelagianism view then ask:
Do you believe that man can come to God at anytime he so chooses, but realizing that he will fall short calls out to God, who rewards him by giving him the grace needed to be saved.

If you are asking if he holds to the biblical model, then ask him:
Do you believe that a man of and by himself, in his natural or depraved state, will never seek after God, understand spiritual things/truths unless God first come to that man and move upon him in grace and in power and ministry of the Holy Spirit?


Darrenss1 - Total depravity is illistrative theat man of and by himself will not seek after God, know or even care about anything having to do with God. THis is the result of his depraved nature, and since he will 'never' seek (and such) without divine help, he is totally depraved.

It is clear you know what I'm getting at, and it is also clear that Darrenss gave his answer. Which shows that all non-Calvinist do not agree with the verse I posted.

Allan...#223

No non-cal nor Arminian disagrees with your statement. No man believes apart from God and that God must do something to bring men to faith.

Verse...

"For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

That is EXTRA grace not given to all men

 

[Jarthur001]

Thanks for stating what you believe. We disagree but I consider you a brother in Christ. We may have and share strong views about our convections but in the end only the save will be in glory regardless of the order of salvation. God is sovereign regardless of how we see his sovereignty and we mortal men cannot change what He ordains, permits, and brings to pass.

To God we give all the Glory, Praise, and Honor.

peace ben

 

[OldRegular]

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

But

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Verse 28 and 29 are the same sentence... IF hearing is a metaphor for being regenerated than ALL will be regenerated since ALL will hear. :laugh:

Darren

Don't confuse the spiritual resurrection of verse 25 with the general resurrection of the bodies of ALL the dead in verses 28, 29.

It is very encouraging to see a dispensationalist recognize the truth of the general resurrection.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Perhaps there is something new under the sun after all!

 

[OldRegular]

Of course He gives life to those He wishes. He wishes to give life to those who "hear". He gives life to those who put their trust in Him.


Please answer.
Cal's say that the "dead" cannot hear. John 5:25 says the "dead hear". How do you explain the dead being able to hear?

Amy

In John 3:3 Jesus Christ states: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In John 3:4 Nicodemus asks: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Jesus Christ responds in verses 5 & 6:
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus is talking about a spiritual rebirth not a physical rebirth. Jesus Christ tells us in verses 7 & 8:

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice that in this entire conversation the word faith is not mentioned in regard to the new birth.

You have asked the question above: How do you explain the dead being able to hear?

I will ask you: If the dead cannot hear how do you explain the dead being able to believe?

 

[HankD]

I will ask you: If the dead cannot hear how do you explain the dead being able to believe?

No one can explain it, but Jesus said it would happen.

Dead Lazarus heard Him and came out of his grave.

In my view regeneration and faith are simultaneous.
That is, believing faith is the first breath of the newborn.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Question by OldRegular
I will ask you: If the dead cannot hear how do you explain the dead being able to believe?

No one can explain it, but Jesus said it would happen.

Dead Lazarus heard Him and came out of his grave.

In my view regeneration and faith are simultaneous.
That is, believing faith is the first breath of the newborn.

HankD

Excellent post as usual Hank. I noted that in John 3 Jesus Christ said we would not understand the new birth.

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Your statement that believing faith is the first breath of the newborn is certainly true in many, perhaps most, instances. However, I believe it would depend on the prior experience and knowledge of the newborn. I would say that believing faith is the certain breath of the newborn.

 

[Jarthur001]

No one can explain it, but Jesus said it would happen.

Dead Lazarus heard Him and came out of his grave.

In my view regeneration and faith are simultaneous.
That is, believing faith is the first breath of the newborn.

HankD

:thumbs:

 

[HankD]

Excellent post as usual Hank. I noted that in John 3 Jesus Christ said we would not understand the new birth.

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Your statement that believing faith is the first breath of the newborn is certainly true in many, perhaps most, instances. However, I believe it would depend on the prior experience and knowledge of the newborn. I would say that believing faith is the certain breath of the newborn.

Agreed, in principle anyway. The details of how that certainty works itself out here on earth is another matter.

HankD

 

[Amy.G]

I will ask you: If the dead cannot hear how do you explain the dead being able to believe?

Being spiritually dead does not mean that a person cannot hear and understand. It means they are separated from God. God had provided the revelation of Himself through creation, His word, the drawing of the Holy Spirit, and the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. Man can hear and obey, but some choose not to.

It seems we have different definitions of "spiritual death". Adam died spiritually immediately after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet he was still able to hear God and obey Him, which apparently he did because we see in scripture that animal sacrifices were instituted after the fall. Adam and all men afterward knew that there must be shedding of blood for God's forgiveness. There is no evidence of regeneration before faith in all of the OT.

 

[Benefactor]

Amy

In John 3:3 Jesus Christ states: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In John 3:4 Nicodemus asks: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Jesus Christ responds in verses 5 & 6:
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus is talking about a spiritual rebirth not a physical rebirth. Jesus Christ tells us in verses 7 & 8:

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice that in this entire conversation the word faith is not mentioned in regard to the new birth.

You have asked the question above: How do you explain the dead being able to hear?

I will ask you: If the dead cannot hear how do you explain the dead being able to believe?

So your hermeneutic is to run with what one verse says. We will hold you to this statement.

Now, regeneration in found in one verse. Let’s look at it. We must abide by the Biblical understanding of regeneration, not yours or mine.

4. But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

God saves us by the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit this is a fact of God's word and this is the only place this word is used in conjunction with salvation.

Jesus said in Luke 7:50 that faith saves and this is only one of many that teach the same Order of Salvatoin.

Faith results in Salvation according to GOD THE SON
How does God the Holy Spirit do the saving? by the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the HOLY SPIRIT

After faith not before

 

[OldRegular]

Being spiritually dead does not mean that a person cannot hear and understand. It means they are separated from God. God had provided the revelation of Himself through creation, His word, the drawing of the Holy Spirit, and the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. Man can hear and obey, but some choose not to.

It seems we have different definitions of "spiritual death". Adam died spiritually immediately after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet he was still able to hear God and obey Him, which apparently he did because we see in scripture that animal sacrifices were instituted after the fall. Adam and all men afterward knew that there must be shedding of blood for God's forgiveness. There is no evidence of regeneration before faith in all of the OT.

Amy

As far as hearing God no one denies that those who are spiritually dead hear the Gospel Call. It is just not effectual for them until God performs a work of Grace in them called the new birth or regeneration. Then the Gospel Call becomes the Effectual Call.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy

As far as hearing God no one denies that those who are spiritually dead hear the Gospel Call. It is just not effectual for them until God performs a work of Grace in them called the new birth or regeneration. Then the Gospel Call becomes the Effectual Call.

I have not seen any teachings in scripture on an "effectual call". The call is effectual when the person believes. But nowhere do I see regeneration preceding faith. We obviously interpret the Bible differently.

 

[HankD]

I have not seen any teachings in scripture on an "effectual call". The call is effectual when the person believes. But nowhere do I see regeneration preceding faith. We obviously interpret the Bible differently.

Hi Amy,

Apart from the "effectual call", how do you interpret the following passages OR has posted?:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
...
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

It seems here that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a person can neither "see" (perceive) nor enter the kingdom of God until that person is first born again.​

HankD​

 

[Amy.G]

Hi Amy,

Apart from the "effectual call", how do you interpret the following passages OR has posted?:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
...
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

It seems here that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a person can neither "see" (perceive) nor enter the kingdom of God until that person is first born again.​

HankD​

Correct. But the verse says "enter", not "see or understand".

Enter:
G1525
εἰσέρχομαι
eiserchomai
ice-er'-khom-ahee
From G1519 and G2064; to enter (literally or figuratively): - X arise, come (in, into), enter in (-to), go in (through).


He cannot be a part of God's kingdom unless He is born of God. Jesus is explaining that this is a "spiritual" birth, not physical. The Jews placed salvation upon their "physical" birth, being descendants of Abraham. Christ is saying salvation is granted not by physical birth, but spiritual birth, of which God is the author, not man.

In verse 16, Jesus tells Nicodemus how one enters into the kingdom. It is through faith in Him, not one's physical genealogy.

 

[Benefactor]

Amy

As far as hearing God no one denies that those who are spiritually dead hear the Gospel Call. It is just not effectual for them until God performs a work of Grace in them called the new birth or regeneration. Then the Gospel Call becomes the Effectual Call.

The following refutes that view soundly, so why continue to believe a lie and not trust in the truth?

Here is the order of salvation according to the scripture, some of the Scripture. There is more where these came from.

The Only Verse to use the word “Regeneration” - Regeneration is Salvation / Salvation is Regeneration. To refute this verse is grounds for being a heretic.

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6. whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,


What we know then is that regeneration is salvation - salvation is regeneration and we know that salvation is by faith

Luke 7: 50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Jesus said your faith has “regenerated” you

Acts 15: 8. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9. and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Luke again writes “cleansing their hearts by faith” What does Titus 3:4 say? It says that salvation is the washing of regeneration or we could say cleansing of regeneration, it is the same thing.

Luke 5: 20. Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you." Jesus of course already knows all, but here lets us know that his foreknowledge sees the faith of these and Jesus regenerates because of faith (your sins are forgiven).

Acts 21. solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

A fuller understanding of the order of salvation: repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

Acts26:18. to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

A fuller understanding of the order of salvation: Hearing the truth from Paul (open their eyes) repentance toward God, faith in Jesus, forgiveness of sins and because of that they too have the same inheritance as those who have already believed.

Romans 3: 21. But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22. even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26. for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Faith in Jesus Christ gives us his righteousness - for all those who believe, have faith in Him.

The redemption which is in Christ Jesus sees us as being justified as a gift of His grace and again this is as a result of redemption, salvation, regeneration, etc. God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So we have the word preached, the sinner hearing the word, and a sinner repenting toward God and believing in Jesus which results is salvation, (regeneration, justification, inheritance, etc.)

Romans 4:5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 4:16. For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 9: 30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

Romans 9:32. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, (if one does not believe they are not saved)

Romans 10: 8. But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same {Lord} is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13. for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 

[Benefactor]

Galatians 2:16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Here we have justification equivalent to "believed in Christ Jesus” To say "justified by faith" is no different from saying saved by faith. Salvation regeneration or new birth or born from above, conversion, passed from death to life, a new creation in Christ Jesus, and it is at conversion justification. The initial saving faith results in these not the other way around.

Hear the word, the Holy Spirit convicts us using the word, the Scripture acts as light and opens our eyes with the work of the Holy Spirit. Truth is light and light dispels darkness. Next is repentance toward God - man stops defying Him and humbles himself before Him agreeing with God that he is a sinner and God is his only hope then in this moment he believes and confesses the Lord Jesus Christ. God then saves the person, justifies him.

The doctrine that teaches regeneration comes before faith is a false doctrine. It is not found in the Bible anywhere at all.

 

[Jerome]

Timothy George, Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) pp. 225-226:

"This being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result: Since faith receives Christ, it leads us to the possession of all His benefits."

 

[Benefactor]

Timothy George, Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) pp. 225-226:

"This being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result: Since faith receives Christ, it leads us to the possession of all His benefits."

Thanks Jerome. I recall just recently reading where Calvin believes that faith precedes regeneration, according to his writings. Calvin believed that Christ is the object of faith. On the first I need to see if I can validate my memory with some facts, so take that with a grain of salt.

The regeneration before faith is a Dort doctrine.

P.S. After reading "Treatise on the Theological Virtues; (2) of the act of faith; Article 7, it is my understanding that Calvin saw salvation after faith.

Taken from the following website: h t t p: // www . two-age.org/church/school/morning/ferguson_5 . doc

Even within the Reformed circles there are disagreements on the ordo-salutis.
Kuyper: justification -> regeneration -> calling. (to preserve grace absolutely)
Hoeksema : regeneration -> calling -> faith -> justification (to preserve depravity)
Murray: calling -> regeneration -> faith…. (purpose of preaching is for regeneration)
WCF: order ?

As you can see there are differences in reformed camps too but as a whole regeneration precedes faith. With the clear teaching of this from Scripture you would think that such a position would be condemned soundly. The Scripture is abundently clear that faith precedes salvation.