And did they practice this in the NT church? Was this what the Apostle Paul taught?
Darren
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Tithe vs offering
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
And did they practice this in the NT church? Was this what the Apostle Paul taught?
Darren
Lux et veritas
New Member
You are missing my point about Abraham. I am not saying that he set a standard for church giving. I am saying that long before God gave the law, there is an instance where an individual used the tithe as an appropriate measurement of giving back to the Lord a portion of that which God had bestowed upon him.
We do not know if:
(a) God had revealed this 'standard' to Abraham specifically, or
(b) if it was what Abraham felt in his heart was an appropriate portion to give.
Either way it sets a standard for us to consider. If it was (a), then there is a divine reason for the tithe apart from the Law as a standard for our giving, and if it was (b), then Abraham, who is the "father of us all" as regards matters of the faith (Romans 4:16,17).
Personally, I think a person who has great gratitude of God's saving grace in their souls would want to give the most he/she can and would not be willing to give "just a tithe".
The story of the widow who gave her two mites (all that she had), teaches a very important principle that many, many Christians fail to see. Namely that God does not measure our giving by the amount we give, but by the amount we hold back for ourselves.
Assuming that you are referring to "tithes" and "offerings" as amounts in relation to (1)monetary (2)income, then you would be absolutely and positively wrong.BigBossman said:
You are right that people should not confuse the two.
You are wrong in how you define them.
If you are thinking of Malachi 3:8, then you have misinterpreted the verse.
The entire book of Malachi (including this passage) is addressed to the priests. Read it for yourself and following the recipiency. Over and over, it is nothing but criticism and curses upon the priests. The priests asked God all the questions, and God responded.
The tithes were the annual increase of the crops and livestock of the harvest for landowners in the Promised Land (Deu 12:1-12; 14:22-27), not tithes of everyone's monetary income (Lev 27; Deu 14:24-26). The annual tithes were eaten by the tither in a feast. Only the third-year tithes were wholly given away (Deu 14:28-29). Eventually, these tithes ended up going into storehouse chambers under King Hezekiah (2 Chr 31:4-21).
The offerings were things burned on the altar in the Temple (see Mal 1:6-14; 2:7-13; 3:1-4 for context of 3:8).
The priests robbed God in tithes by stealing the third-year tithes from the Levites who ministered in the Temple (Neh 10:34-39; Neh 13:1-14).
The priests robbed God in offerings by burning blemished things on the altar in the Temple, contrary to the Law (Mal 1:6-14; 2:7-13; 3:1-4).
Please show the Scripture to support your assumption.
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or, (c) Abraham was following a Middle Eastern custom/law that required 10% of war spoils to go to the local city king.Lux et veritas said:
There is no "standard" found anywhere in the Bible for anyone to have an obligation of some kind to give a perpetual 10% of his monetary income to a local church.Lux et veritas said:
Lux et veritas
New Member
You keep using the term "monetary income" like it was some kind of exemption from what we give to God.
While every society has had some form of monetary system, often people were paid in non-monetary product. Romans soldiers were paid in salt (an extremely valuable commodity in those days, hence the term, "a man who is worth his salt").
To say that there is no obligation to give a portion of monetary income is nothing short but a disingenious way to rob God and a cover-up for an unwillingness to give to the Lord. What would you suggest? Most people today are not in the agriculture business, and thus would never bring the Lord the firstfruits of the increase (harvest) to the Lord. I hope you are not suggesting that Christians are under no obligation to give to the Lord. Because that would be patently false. We are.
In 1 Cor.16:1,2 Paul commands the church with regards to a matter dealing with the support of God's work.
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
While I readily admit that the text doesn't say so in so many words, I am on a lot firmer ground saying they gave of their monetary income, and not food and livestock!
Exactly how else would a person give to the Lord if they never had a garden, let alone a commercial crop, and didn't raise any livestock?
Money is simply a representation of a man's labour. Whether that labour was for production of food, or as a skilled craftsman, it is God who blesses with any "increase", and a spiritual man would recognize God's claim upon it.
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Lux et veritas
New Member
While tithes and offerings COULD be what you have stated, you are limiting them unscripturally. For instance, in 2 Chron. 31:11,12, both tithes and offerings are clearly seen to be the monetary income of the people.
11 Then Hezekiah commanded to prepare chambers in the house of the LORD; and they prepared them,
12 And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next.
A person might argue that they sold their produce and then brought the money. What would be the difference between them "working to raise crops and livestock" and then selling them and tithing with that monetary income, and a person who works in a trade or profession today and giving their tithes and offerings out of their monetary income. None whatsoever.
I suggest you read C.H. Spurgeon and A.W. Pink on the subject of tithing if you haven't already.
No, I am saying that tithing in the Bible had nothing to do with monetary income. No one ever tithed from his wages or from income.Lux et veritas said:
"Giving to God" (as in supporting the church with money) and tithing are two completely different subjects in the Bible. One is not a model or method for the other. They are simply two completely different things.
True, the Israelites had money in the form of gold and silver. They had silver monetary units in weights of shekels. However, the Scriptures are clear that the Israelites, according to the Law, did not tithe of their monetary income/earned wages. They tithed only of crops and livestock grown and raised annually only within the borders of the Promised Land, and only when they conquered the Canaanites and inhabited the land. Therefore, only landowners tithed, because they had ownership of the titheable commodities. The exact reason that God set up the tithes this way was so that tithing was 100% dependent upon what only God could do--control the weather and climate. One could not tithe from wages earned in a trade or skill; one could only tithe from what God provided through nature in the Promised Land.Lux et veritas said:
The only times money is mentioned regarding tithing are the following places:
If one wanted to keep his tenth of crops, he would instead give 120% of its value in money. The 20% extra was a penalty, because the tithe was supposed to be in crops. The tither could not do this with the tithes of animals.
For the annual tithe feasts, if carrying the crops and livestock would be too difficult, one could exchange it for money (which is easier to carry). Then, at the feast location, he would buy back crops and livestock to eat.
I said nothing of the kind. I only said that tithing has nothing to do with giving to the church.Lux et veritas said:
I suggest we give money cheerfully and abundantly to the church to support the ministry and meet needs. This, however, has nothing to do with tithing as it is found in the Bible.Lux et veritas said:
I did not say anything like what you inferred at all. You quoted what I said:Lux et veritas said:
AresMan said:
I specifically mentioned "a perpetual 10%." No Christian is under any kind of "religious tax" on their income to support the church. They must give cheerfully and abundantly, but this has nothing to do with tithing.
They may have given money or food. It doesn't really matter. This passage (and other passages in the church about supporting a ministry) simply has nothing whatsoever to do with tithing.Lux et veritas said:
This passage has nothing to do with tithing. This passage in particular has nothing to do with even supporting one's own church. This passage is about supporting a remote church. Specifically, it is about a particular famine in Judea, and it is one of several accounts of Paul telling certain churches ahead of time to save up so that, when he arrives in his journey, they will already be prepared to give him the aid.
All four of these passages are talking about a specific contribution of famine relief for the saints in Jerusalem.Act 11:27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:
Act 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
Rom 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia [see 2 Cor 9:2] to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
...
Rom 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.
...
Rom 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
2Co 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints [in Jerusalem], it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2Co 9:2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. [see Rom 15:26]
2Co 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
2Co 9:4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth forever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Co 9:13 While by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
2Co 9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
2Co 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints [in Jerusalem], as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
1Co 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.
1Co 16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.
They give money. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of tithing found in the Bible. Completely different subject.Lux et veritas said:
The Bible is perfectly specific in its many tithing passages about the who, what, when, where, how, and why of all things tithed. For the church we give money. To tie tithing to church ministry and extrapolate a 10% income tax for the church is a completely fallacious inference.Lux et veritas said:
Nope. I have not. Believe me, I have checked and checked and checked. I have read every passage in the Bible about tithing. I even have all the references memorized and what each passage talks about. I can list them all for you, if you want.Lux et veritas said:
It could possibly be that someone stored some money in the chambers. We know that there were vessels there. However, concerning the tithes and offerings, these verses say nothing, as you infer, about them being from monetary income.Lux et veritas said:
After the Babylonian captivity, Hezekiah resumes the practice of bringing all the firstfruits and all the third-year tithes into the Temple storehouse chambers:
The two passages that I listed above are the only ones regarding money in the tithe laws. They both obviously spell out how they relate to the tithers and what they tithed.
A landowner had either to tithe of his crops or give instead its value in money plus 20% as a penalty for not tithing in crops. He could not do this with the livestock. You could argue that all non-landowners then simply had to tithe 12% annually in money, but then they would not be "redeeming" anything, now, would they?
You could argue that, in Deu 14, one could simply bring money to Jerusalem, exchange it for food, and eat in the festival. However, you would still need Scripture to prove this as before.
The command is clear.
Please find me any tithing passage in the Law other than the two listed where people tithed from money (or "income"). Also, show me any passage that proves that the reason tithes were in crops and livestock was that Israel was an agrarian society. I could then prove with many passages mentioning money that Israel at this time was a completely monetary-driven economy.
The tithes were in crops and livestock so that they would be linked with God's blessing regarding the borders of the Promised Land and that this blessing was solely dependent upon God's sovereign control of the climate (something man can not touch or credit to his own efforts).
I have deconstructed Pink's say on the matter in another one of Andrew's forums. I have not seen what Spurgeon said. If you know where I can find what you refer, please link it and I will examine it.Lux et veritas said:
AresMan I'll give you some credit here, you certainly cover the subject thoroughly. Good job. When we contrast Paul's teachings in 2 Cor 9 we don't read Paul reference tithing at all but another scripture totally unrelated to tithing:
2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
I think its clear that the NT church REPLACED tithing and done away with it altogether and introduced freewill offerings. Some want to argue that tithing is a principle and 10% is God's figure that each ought to give, grace ought to be more than law... It is easy to force a comparison if one wants to make the bible read that way but the bottom line is the NT church did not liken freewill offerings to tithing, not at all. :godisgood:
Darren
I agree with your premise, except that I would say that the church did not "replace" tithing with church giving. Many Jews continued to follow the tithe laws regarding their crops and livestock for the Temple while also giving contributions of food or money for mission work. These two practices were completely unrelated and they did not overlap in any way. They are two completely different subjects.
The tithing laws ended with the Priesthood of Jesus (Heb 7:5,12,18), but many Jews did not stop practicing it until the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70.
Oh yes I agree. Tithing was not even on the cards for the church to consider. In Acts 15 the church was not charged to continue the tithe, tithing wasn't even mentioned.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Darren
tenderhearted
New Member
I have not read the whole thread, But I remember my pastor talking about this in a book he wrote.
Ok, in the old testament, the LEVI tribe was not given land, so it was up to the other 11 tribes of Isreal to support them, hence they were required to tithe 10 percent of their grain, wine, cattle, and other food supplies, and I think cloth as well, but I cant be for sure.
they even were required to take a levite on vacation with them every three years.
IF aN old testament JEW decided to give MONEY, they could, but they would have to pay 30 percent of their worth:
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Now, today, everything we HAVE is from God, so, we are to give with a charitable heart. Look at the poor widow
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
I think that we should give with LOVE, NOT obligation. If we cant give money, then give time.
Ok, in the old testament, the LEVI tribe was not given land, so it was up to the other 11 tribes of Isreal to support them, hence they were required to tithe 10 percent of their grain, wine, cattle, and other food supplies, and I think cloth as well, but I cant be for sure.
they even were required to take a levite on vacation with them every three years.
IF aN old testament JEW decided to give MONEY, they could, but they would have to pay 30 percent of their worth:
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Now, today, everything we HAVE is from God, so, we are to give with a charitable heart. Look at the poor widow
Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
I think that we should give with LOVE, NOT obligation. If we cant give money, then give time.
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Correct, except for the cloth part. I have read every passage in the Bible about tithing many times and I only saw food and animals.
I did not see that part. It must be outside the tithing passages that I study.
Only landowners could do this. If they did not want to give up the 10% of their crops, they would instead give the estimated value of those crops in money plus a 20% penalty (or a total of 120% of their worth). Those who were not landowners did not tithe.
I agree, although the widow was not giving in relation to the tithing system; she was contributing to the Temple treasury funds. Being poor, and a widow, she most likely received food from the third-year tithes that used to be laid outside residencies (Deu 14:28-29; 26:12), but later went to storehouse chambers in the Temple (2 Chr 31:5-12). For most of the time when the Levites were working in the fields, the Levitical tithes went to the Levitical cities (Neh 10:37). The tithes that were taken into the Temple were only the tithes for the poor and the tithe of the tithes from the Levites for the priests and Levites when they performed their yearly ministration in the Temple (Neh 10:38-39).
tenderhearted
New Member
I will have to get that book I read and show more, but it is late, almost midnight, so it will have to be tomorrow maybe.
christianasbookshelf
New Member
Great question! :thumbs: I guess both could benefit one believer or another. If they offer less than 10%, then they'd say "gimme the tithe blessing." But, if they give offerings of more than 10%, then they would want the offering blessing. But I think you make the point in that our offerings should exceed the O.T. rule of 10%, and thus we should all give offerings, and that God will bless us accordingly. I agree.
There is nothing in the Bible that even remotely begins to approach the idea of any command/obligation/suggestion/principle for Christians to tithe monetary income to a local church, that offerings are monetary amounts in addition to these so-called "tithes" and that special blessings befall Christians who meet these thresholds.
In Malachi 3:8, the tithes were the third-year tithes brought to the temple that the priests stole from the Levites who were ministering there in their yearly cycle. The offerings were blemished sacrifices that the priests were burning upon the altar in the Temple in direct disobedience to God's law. Malachi 3:8-10 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Christians "robbing God" by not giving 10%+ of their net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a local church. To believe that is to take Scripture out of context and twist it drastically.
The tithe of the Bible was God's agricultural tax and welfare system for the theocratic nation of Israel that was only of crops and livestock from the boundaries of the Promised Land and followed in seven-year cycle of annual feasts, third-year heaps, seven-year sabbaticals, and fiftieth-year Jubilees.
Tithing has NOTHING to do with Christians or the church. Christians simply give money, food, or whatever freely and cheerfully to support the church ministry and meet needs. The doctrines of NT giving and OT tithing are two completely distinct and unrelated subjects.
Please read my other posts in this thread.
Agreed. I think christians are simply looking to try and make the OT tithe fit into NT giving. In that case anything can apply when one is trying to force an application but it would not be accurate to say the bible teaches such things. Anyone can gather verses about tithing/offering/giving anywhere from the OT and make it apply to the NT church that really would not prove anything because they would simply omit the integral sections of the law that make it unique to the nation of Israel.
I completely agree that the tithe system was a national welfare system for Israel, good call; it functioned on a 3 year cycle the 7th being exempt for crop growers but not for the first-borns. Money was never given except in the case to redeem their giving of crops/first born but the cost was 1/5 extra (from memory). Nothing about tithing was ever an adopted practice in the NT church. And when collections were taken they were always freewill without any min/max but was according to the heart and love and sacrificial intentions of the giver.
The OT tithe was not even in comparison or contrast to the NT church collections only that the collections were for the needy and poor as was the argument Paul made in 2 Cor 9:9, the other use for giving was for the support of the church and its functions but I would argue what we have today is another matter altogether, in churches with payed pastors, church building funds, expenses, missions projects, evangelism works, bible college projects...etc Some churches really hang on the members tithes because they really need the money.
That's how I see it.
Darren