Tithe vs offering

[TomVols]

Some random thoughts:
1. Christians should be consistent in exegesis. Too many pro-tithers ignore OT continuities, while too many anti-tithers are almost Marcionite in their wall-building between the testaments. Anti-tithers seem to think the church was an accident and never a thought in the mind of God prior to the first century. Both camps bring bags of presuppositions they are unwilling to let go of or recognize.
2. Good to hear the Corinthian passages called what they are by an anti-tither. Most of the time anti-tithers use those passages to describe normative church financing and giving, while this is clearly not the case.
3. This is an issue that should be approached humbly. It rarely is.
4. I worry about the subjectivity with the anti-tithing camp. Just give whatever....you're fine. Doesn't seem right. No one really believes that that I've met. Honest. They'd say that the CEO with a Jaguar in the church parking lot who flips a $5 in the offering plate is sinning. Curious how they can say that when she's under no obligation to give any amount.
5. I've never met a pro-tither who adopted their position as a way to get more $$$ into the church bank account. I think that's a straw man.
6. I've never met an anti-tither who adopted that position because they wanted to be selfish with their money, although I can name two folks who say they have (I only count what I see and hear for myself).
7. I've rarely met an anti-tither who gave more than 10%.
8. I have met a few Christians who thought tithing was helping their standing with God, but only because they were obedient - not because tithing was the bene esse of obedience that some anti-tithers allege

Just some thoughts. I'm sure both sides will blast me starting....right about.....now! :laugh:

 

[Darrenss1]

Some random thoughts:
1. Christians should be consistent in exegesis. Too many pro-tithers ignore OT continuities, while too many anti-tithers are almost Marcionite in their wall-building between the testaments. Anti-tithers seem to think the church was an accident and never a thought in the mind of God prior to the first century. Both camps bring bags of presuppositions they are unwilling to let go of or recognize.
2. Good to hear the Corinthian passages called what they are by an anti-tither. Most of the time anti-tithers use those passages to describe normative church financing and giving, while this is clearly not the case.
3. This is an issue that should be approached humbly. It rarely is.
4. I worry about the subjectivity with the anti-tithing camp. Just give whatever....you're fine. Doesn't seem right. No one really believes that that I've met. Honest. They'd say that the CEO with a Jaguar in the church parking lot who flips a $5 in the offering plate is sinning. Curious how they can say that when she's under no obligation to give any amount.
5. I've never met a pro-tither who adopted their position as a way to get more $$$ into the church bank account. I think that's a straw man.
6. I've never met an anti-tither who adopted that position because they wanted to be selfish with their money, although I can name two folks who say they have (I only count what I see and hear for myself).
7. I've rarely met an anti-tither who gave more than 10%.
8. I have met a few Christians who thought tithing was helping their standing with God, but only because they were obedient - not because tithing was the bene esse of obedience that some anti-tithers allege

Just some thoughts. I'm sure both sides will blast me starting....right about.....now! :laugh:

1. Since this is a thread on the subject would you like to give some examples of those presumptions?
2. I'm not as you categorise as "anti-tither", if christians want to give 90% of their pay to church they can if they want I have no problems with that. Its when they want to use that as their badge of honor that can really bug me. The other issue is when I hear tithing enforced through Mal 3 that it becomes almost an abusive doctrine from some pastors, maybe they aren't aware of it but some people don't even have enough money after paying their bills and expenses to even make a tithe but the preacher will call them thieves anyway. Since the tithing doctrine demands christians give before paying their own house expenses and bills I find it than becomes a problem. Besides the money that is owed to another should not be (in tithing terms) consecrated to God anyway.
4. I don't think not tithing means not giving, that to me is a false assumption and I find those that take that position aren't just anti-tithers but they are also anti-givers. There is no need to put everyone in the same camp just because they don't believe the bible teaches christians should tithe.
5 - 6. I never want to measure christian by the amount they give and we must always appreciate any amount of giving anyway. Rather than be ungrateful and believe that people are ripping the church off for not giving enough money. Let God deal with people's hearts (if they are doing so out of greed).
7. How did you find that out?
8. Doesn't bother me. If giving gives christians a blessing and satisfaction than that is a good thing as long as giving/tithing doesn't inspire self righteousness or elitism. I have seen christians actually dispise giving their tithes but do it out of obligation because the church needed that extra cash. There are 2 sides to that coin.

Darren

 

[gb93433]

4. I worry about the subjectivity with the anti-tithing camp. Just give whatever....you're fine. Doesn't seem right. No one really believes that that I've met. Honest. They'd say that the CEO with a Jaguar in the church parking lot who flips a $5 in the offering plate is sinning. Curious how they can say that when she's under no obligation to give any amount.

I have known two men of whom one gave 50% and another 90%, and both were givers and not tithers.

 

[TomVols]

1. Examples? I did. Some ATs are so rigid with their preconcieved hard walls that they ignore the continuities between the covenants/testaments. Some PTs assume that tithing is there and anything else is a travesty or heresy.

I'm not as you categorise as "anti-tither"

Okay.

Its when they want to use that as their badge of honor that can really bug me.

As I said, I think that's a bit of a straw man or a caricature.

maybe they aren't aware of it but some people don't even have enough money after paying their bills and expenses to even make a tithe but the preacher will call them thieves anyway.

This irks me to no end. I am not defending preachers preaching tithing, but when people say they can't give because they have so many bills (and by bills, they mean a house they can't afford, two or more cars, heavy credit card debt where they're financing groceries, dinners out, season tickets, etc.) I want to vomit. I'm not a fan of God getting scraps, if that.

I don't think not tithing means not giving

I don't either.

I never want to measure christian by the amount they give

But you do when you say:

Let God deal with people's hearts (if they are doing so out of greed).

Both camps insticntively do this a bit, probably moreso in the PT camp. But it's common to both.

7. How did you find that out?

They volunteered this information.

If giving gives christians a blessing and satisfaction than that is a good thing as long as giving/tithing doesn't inspire self righteousness or elitism. I have seen christians actually dispise giving their tithes but do it out of obligation because the church needed that extra cash. There are 2 sides to that coin.

I've seen ATs begrudgingly give too. I disagree that there's nothing wrong with giving to get a blessing/satisfaction. I find this unScriptural. We're not to give or do anything obedience-wise to get something out of it. God's glory is to be our motive, not our satisfaction.

 

[gb93433]

If giving is done with expecting some kind of a blessing in return then it is nothing more than health/wealth prosperity theology.

Giving is letting go with no strings attached.

I have always believed that there are those in the church who must be given to because they have needs that need to be met. It is the believers who must help to take care of other believers who are in need. If it does not then it is just giving lip service to meeting needs and loving one another.

 

[Darrenss1]

If giving is done with expecting some kind of a blessing in return then it is nothing more than health/wealth prosperity theology.

Giving is letting go with no strings attached.

I have always believed that there are those in the church who must be given to because they have needs that need to be met. It is the believers who must help to take care of other believers who are in need. If it does not then it is just giving lip service to meeting needs and loving one another.

You both misunderstood what I meant by saying blessing/satisfaction. That was not the basis for giving, I never said it was, I said if someone gets it from giving then I see no problem with it. Their motive was not to give to get anything in return but should they find joy out of the result of their contribution I see no problem in that. A person gives to the work of God and sees that money go into saving souls there is a satisfaction and blessing in that knowing the money is being used for God's work. Because I said blessing or satisfaction you guys overreact; you think christians ought to give the church but not have their hearts into it, that is not scriptural either.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

This irks me to no end. I am not defending preachers preaching tithing, but when people say they can't give because they have so many bills (and by bills, they mean a house they can't afford, two or more cars, heavy credit card debt where they're financing groceries, dinners out, season tickets, etc.) I want to vomit. I'm not a fan of God getting scraps, if that.

I said they don't have enough to make up a full tithe. That is a very real situation christian families have to deal with. You prefer they give their money to church and then struggle not having the money for the house and bills. That is not God getting scraps, that is a lame expression if I ever heard one.

God's glory is to be our motive, not our satisfaction.

Agreed, never said otherwise. Its humorous to think you would accuse me of such, why, I have no idea.

Darren

 

[Jim1999]

Frankly, I don't believe one has given anything until they have tithed. Offerings are over and above the tithe.

Certainly I would make allowance for people in hard times, but I wouldn't feel pity for those who abuse their income.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Darrenss1]

Frankly, I don't believe one has given anything until they have tithed.

And the reason for that is the tithe is considered a debt payed not an offering.

Offerings are over and above the tithe.

Curious as to how someone can believe that considering what Paul taught.

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

2 Cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Where does Paul remotely refer to tithing and offerings as 2 separate issues?

So let him give; after of course they meet the tithe first; let him give as he purposeth in his heart as God hath prospered him......

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

1. Examples? I did. Some ATs are so rigid with their preconcieved hard walls that they ignore the continuities between the covenants/testaments. Some PTs assume that tithing is there and anything else is a travesty or heresy.
Okay. As I said, I think that's a bit of a straw man or a caricature. This irks me to no end. I am not defending preachers preaching tithing, but when people say they can't give because they have so many bills (and by bills, they mean a house they can't afford, two or more cars, heavy credit card debt where they're financing groceries, dinners out, season tickets, etc.) I want to vomit. I'm not a fan of God getting scraps, if that. I don't either. But you do when you say: Both camps insticntively do this a bit, probably moreso in the PT camp. But it's common to both. They volunteered this information. I've seen ATs begrudgingly give too. I disagree that there's nothing wrong with giving to get a blessing/satisfaction. I find this unScriptural. We're not to give or do anything obedience-wise to get something out of it. God's glory is to be our motive, not our satisfaction.

I said:
"I never want to measure christian by the amount they give and we must always appreciate any amount of giving anyway. Rather than be ungrateful and believe that people are ripping the church off for not giving enough money. Let God deal with people's hearts (if they are doing so out of greed)".

You said:

But you do when you say:

Obviously you are taking what I said out of context. Instead of people being concerned with those "they think" ought to give more they should be grateful for what they are given, simply praying for them (the ones giving) would be a good remedy for those accusing others of not giving out of greed. The thought never crosses my mind and has never come to my attention.

Darren

 

[AresMan]

Frankly, I don't believe one has given anything until they have tithed. Offerings are over and above the tithe.

You are assuming that a tithe according to the Bible is properly a perpetual 10% of one's monetary income and that it is to be given to a local church.
You are assuming that an offering is also a monetary amount, and that, because of this, can only exist upon a "tithe" (of monetary income) already given.

BOTH of your assumptions are wrong according to Scripture, thus rendering your statement wrong as a non sequitur.

Likely, you base this assumption upon a superficial reading of Malachi 3:8-10. Possibly, you did not read my posts in this thread where I dealt with the whole of Malachi and other related passages in depth.

The tithes in Malachi were the third-year heap tithes of the annual increase of crops and livestock delivered into the temple storehouse chambers by the Levites with the priests supervision. These tithes were used for the poor and needy and for the priests in the temple and for only those Levites who ministered in the temple during their brief course rotation. The priests according to Nehemiah 13 were robbing God in tithes by stealing the tithes from the Levites who served in the temple and making them go back to their Levitical cities to farm without being able to serve in the temple.

The offerings in Malachi were the sacrifices that the priests burned upon the altar in the temple. The priests according to Malachi 1-2 were robbing God in offerings by burning blemished animals upon the altar.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that even remotely begins to approach the spouse of a third cousin's dog's maiden credit card number of a hint that tithes and offerings in the Bible are how you have defined them.

Try again.

 

[Darrenss1]

You are assuming that a tithe according to the Bible is properly a perpetual 10% of one's monetary income and that it is to be given to a local church.
You are assuming that an offering is also a monetary amount, and that, because of this, can only exist upon a "tithe" (of monetary income) already given.

To give money instead of tithes would cost 1/5 extra as a $$ value. Which shows first tithing was crops, flock, the firstborn (living creatures)..etc The only time money was mentioned was to exchange or buy back (redeem) the crop/flock to keep for themsleves and give in its place a dollar value costing 1/5 above the normal cost of them.

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Just a thought.

Darren

 

[Jim1999]

You assume that I say it is biblical! I can't recall saying that. Ten per cent, the tithe, is minimal giving, in my view. Ten per cent of what we earn is one thin dime out of every dollar earned. The Lord Jesus gave His all. He did not dither over a dime.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

A person gives to the work of God and sees that money go into saving souls there is a satisfaction and blessing in that knowing the money is being used for God's work.

If money saved souls then America would see the greatest growth in the world. My Bible teaches that the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few.

 

[AresMan]

To give money instead of tithes would cost 1/5 extra as a $$ value. Which shows first tithing was crops, flock, the firstborn (living creatures)..etc The only time money was mentioned was to exchange or buy back (redeem) the crop/flock to keep for themsleves and give in its place a dollar value costing 1/5 above the normal cost of them.

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Just a thought.

Darren

Yes, I agree. I have used this passage many times to prove my point. However, one could only redeem his tithes if he had tithes to give: crops and livestock from land in Canaan that he owned. If one was not a landowner, one did not tithe. One who did not raise crops and livestock did not just simply give 12% of his monetary income. This would not be an equivalent metric to the annual increase of one's harvest. A landowner would have income and outgo throughout the year, but the increase of the harvest was upon what one tithed. More or less, an equivalent in another trade would be profit, not income. However, I am not suggesting that non-landowners tithed of their monetary profit, nor am I saying that people today must tithe of their profit. I am merely showing that one could not make a comparable metric between monetary income and the annual increase of a harvest for a source of tithing. Also, the tithe was every tenth crop/animal counted, not every first of ten. If one had 29 sheep, he tithed 2 sheep (not 3 sheep, and not 2.9 sheep).

Tithing was always tied directly or indirectly to a tenth of the annual increase of the harvest, and no one tithed (or had to tithe) of anything that was not tied to this metric--this count from the harvest.

 

[AresMan]

Ten per cent, the tithe, is minimal giving, in my view.

That may be your view (i.e. opinion), and that is a fine opinion to have or practice. The debate here is about what the Bible actually commands and how it defines tithes and offerings.

Ten per cent of what we earn is one thin dime out of every dollar earned.

That is true statement. It also is not a Biblical tithe.

The Lord Jesus gave His all.

He sure did!

He did not dither over a dime.

He did not tithe. He was not a landowner; therefore, He did not tithe. He would have been counted among the poor; therefore, He likely received tithes (Lev 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).

 

[Darrenss1]

If money saved souls then America would see the greatest growth in the world. My Bible teaches that the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few.

I never said money saves souls, rather it supports ministries and the works that go to preaching the gospel and the word of God. Getting the gospel out to people, tracts, bibles, radio ministries...etc that all cost money to which some christians feel blessed to see their offerings go to a ministy they themselves love and support.

Darren

 

[gb93433]

I never said money saves souls, rather it supports ministries and the works that go to preaching the gospel and the word of God. Getting the gospel out to people, tracts, bibles, radio ministries...etc that all cost money to which some christians feel blessed to see their offerings go to a ministy they themselves love and support

If money gave pit the gosple then America would be full of Christians. Money does nothing to get pout the gospel im the vast majority of cases. Many young people are saved by hearing the gospel through a friend and neither of them have much money. If every Christian in America discipled one person in five years the churches would see a 100% increase in five years. That does not require anything more than a willing heart with a knowledge of scripture and a heart of obedience.

 

[TomVols]

Agreed, never said otherwise. Its humorous to think you would accuse me of such, why, I have no idea.

I'm not accusing you of anything. Just making a statement. Relax :thumbs:

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Numbers 18 is clear. The tithe was to be received only by the Levites and only within the boundaries of National Israel. Gentiles were never required to tithe according to the OT Law.

New Testament never requires tithe from Gentiles either. The New Testament teaches grace giving. Giving 100% of what one purposes in one's heart to give. Grace giving with a cheerful heart... not of necessity or of compulsion.