...include rejecting something and the need to be blinded to the truth?
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- Thread starter Jarthur001
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Good point Webdog. And the scriptures do not show the spiritually dead to be like a lifeless corpse. We see the rich man in Luke who went to hell, he was physically and spiritually dead yet could both hear and speak.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
This rich man was spiritually dead, yet he could see, hear, speak, thirst, feel pain (tormented), and it even seems to show that he had repented, although too late to save his soul. He begs Abraham to send someone from the dead to speak to his five brothers, a picture of Christ. Abraham says the brothers have the scriptures (Moses and the prophets), let them hear them. Notice once again that a person must first hear the word of God to be saved. Abraham also says if a person will not hear and believe the scriptures, then neither will they be persuaded (not forced), though one rose from the dead to speak to them.
Jesus said the day was coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And of these dead, those who hear (believe) shall live.
And Abraham and Sarah are pictures of God speaking to the dead.
Gen 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
And in Hebrews and Romans it speaks of Abraham and Sarah and compares them to the dead.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
So the scriptures compare Abraham and Sarah's bodies as being dead, as both were far past child bearing. Yet God gave them a child. And notice once again the scriptures use the word persuaded. Abraham was persuaded to believe, not forced.
And again in Hebrews
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
So clearly the scriptures show that the dead can indeed hear the word of God, and those that hear and believe will receive the promises of God. And it repeatedly shows they are not forced to believe, but are persuaded.
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Another picture of Christ speaking to the dead is the story of the good Samaritan.
Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Notice this man who was robbed was left "half dead". This is the state of the unsaved. We live in a physically alive body but are spritually dead. The good Samaritan is a picture of Christ, notice he pours oil and wine into the wounded man's wounds, this is a picture of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. Notice he leaves the man with a host, a picture of the Holy Spirit and asks that he takes care of the man until he returns.
Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Notice this man who was robbed was left "half dead". This is the state of the unsaved. We live in a physically alive body but are spritually dead. The good Samaritan is a picture of Christ, notice he pours oil and wine into the wounded man's wounds, this is a picture of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. Notice he leaves the man with a host, a picture of the Holy Spirit and asks that he takes care of the man until he returns.
These are hypothetical questions which make about as much as sense as the question, "Could God create a rock he couldn't lift?
The Calvinist view assumes God only draws some but not others. The claim would like, the gospel preached to a multitude of people say 10,000, God draws 5,000 to believe and the rest God isn't interested in drawing. A man can have head knowledge of God and His Word but not be saved. Even worse that they do not ever come to Christ but they were strongly influenced by the gospel, even to the point where people thought they were christians, how does Calvinism explain that in light of God drawing a person to Christ, since all whom are said to be drawn must inevitably believe?
Darren
The basic foundation of his questions were false and unbiblical. Therefore they are not proper questions. Why waste time on such foolish controversies.
Its not a foolish controversy and asking the question shouldn't be a waste of time. How does Calvinism deal with the fact that hearing the Word of God brings about faith to believe and follow God. According to the Calvinist position they need to be regenerated for the Word of God to have any effect, that to me is a contradiction since the Word of God does have power, through the Holy Spirit and to convict the sinner of their need of Christ and their position of sin (..etc); the Word of God draws the sinner to Christ. So then Calvinism adds a sub section saying the Word of God only has power IF on the condition the sinner has first been regenerated.
Its a significant factor to take into account I think....
Darren
Look back at the questions which were asked.
What if one is not granted to come to Christ?
Can they come anyway?
Just what needs to take place in this granting from the Father?
Does this mean that some are not granted?
Since he asked questions that have no biblical basis and foundation then the rest is mere speculation and controversy.
Well I think its a stalemate because how can we ever know who is and who isn't granted? The same for regenerated or not regenerated? I believe its the position of Calvinism that they don't know the identity of the elect anyway, so its not a question Calvinism would ask.
For me the issue is how to view those whom don't respond although they were given the gospel. A lot thoughts come to mind from both camps.....
Darren
I do not think it is for us to assume anything and that we know the heart of a person and who is saved and who is not. The judgment belongs to God. I believe the Bible teaches that there will not be some in heaven whom we may expect to be there.
For example Mt. 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I acknowledge what scripture teaches, that the Word of God (the gospel) is the method God has ordained to bring about salvation to those He has chosen. (I Cor. 1:20 or so)
How do you deal with the fact that since the Word of God, the gospel, is necessary for salvation, that millions, or perhaps billions, of people will never get a chance to hear the gospel?
Why did God use a method (the spread of the gospel) that would take centuries to reach throughout the whole world, knowing that untold millions, perhaps billions, of people would live and die without ever having a chance to hear the gospel?
Why did God grant some the chance to hear the gospel, but did not grant others the chance to hear the gospel?
I don't know that your position is any different from the reformed position.
That is, Holy Spirit works to convict the person of the truth of the gospel.
Perhaps the only difference I see is saying the "Word of God draws a sinner" apart from any work of Holy Spirit. It is Holy Spirit that "draws" to God. That He uses the Word of God to do so, doesn't change that He is the agent of drawing.
peace to you
raying:
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Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.How do you deal with the fact that since the Word of God, the gospel, is necessary for salvation, that millions, or perhaps billions, of people will never get a chance to hear the gospel?
peace to you
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
God gives light (truth) to every man, the most basic and simplistic being His revelation of Himself through creation and the conscience. But if man rejects even that basic truth which God has revealed, God will not give him any more truth.
If man accepts the truth that has been revealed to him, God will give him more truth. But God does not cast His pearls before swine.
What Amy said is scriptural.
When Jesus preached to the multitudes, he often spoke in parables. The reason he did this was because the vast majority were not sincerely interested in what he said. Many came to see miracles, some came to be fed. But some were sincerely interested and sought Jesus out and asked for the interpretation of the parables. They did not understand the parables any more than others. But they had faith in Jesus and a desire to understand his teachings, and so Jesus taught them apart from the others.
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
When a person will not listen to God, God will then allow that person to be deceived. But to those who have faith and a sincere desire to learn he will give more. That is what Jesus is teaching here.
Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
In the parable of the sower, the different types of soil represent the different types of hearers. The wayside has not been plowed, it is not prepared to receive seed. When seed (the word of God) falls on this hard ground it stays on the surface and the birds come and steal it away. The birds represent the devil.
But the ground that was plowed deep and did not contain thorns or rocks produced much fruit. This is those whose heart is sincere and desire to learn of the Lord.
Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
God did not speak in parables so that the hearers could not understand for his pleasure as Calvinists teach. Jesus clearly gives the reasons, he says these people's hearts are waxed gross, that their ears are dull of hearing, and that their eyes they have closed. God did not close their eyes, they closed their own eyes.
And the Bible teaches a man receives the Holy Spirit after believeing, not before, and that faith comes by hearing the word of God. The teaching that God regenerates a man to believe cannot be found in the Bible anywhere.
When Jesus preached to the multitudes, he often spoke in parables. The reason he did this was because the vast majority were not sincerely interested in what he said. Many came to see miracles, some came to be fed. But some were sincerely interested and sought Jesus out and asked for the interpretation of the parables. They did not understand the parables any more than others. But they had faith in Jesus and a desire to understand his teachings, and so Jesus taught them apart from the others.
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
When a person will not listen to God, God will then allow that person to be deceived. But to those who have faith and a sincere desire to learn he will give more. That is what Jesus is teaching here.
Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
In the parable of the sower, the different types of soil represent the different types of hearers. The wayside has not been plowed, it is not prepared to receive seed. When seed (the word of God) falls on this hard ground it stays on the surface and the birds come and steal it away. The birds represent the devil.
But the ground that was plowed deep and did not contain thorns or rocks produced much fruit. This is those whose heart is sincere and desire to learn of the Lord.
Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
God did not speak in parables so that the hearers could not understand for his pleasure as Calvinists teach. Jesus clearly gives the reasons, he says these people's hearts are waxed gross, that their ears are dull of hearing, and that their eyes they have closed. God did not close their eyes, they closed their own eyes.
And the Bible teaches a man receives the Holy Spirit after believeing, not before, and that faith comes by hearing the word of God. The teaching that God regenerates a man to believe cannot be found in the Bible anywhere.
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This argument needs to be addressed on both sides. Calvinism teaches God simply showed no interest in saving those whom never heard the gospel, yet in the same breath there will be those whom heard the gospel but where not elect and were locked into rejecting the gospel because they were not regenerated.
Since you know, love for you to share this nugget with me, thanks..
This doesn't explain that the gospel is to be preached to every creature not just those whom were supposedly elected to be saved.
Of course I agree as well but the Word of God is spiritual and the HS takes Gods Words and uses it with conviction, cutting to the heart, mind, soul of every individual. Therefore it is God's Word that also draws sinners to Christ through the gospel. God does everything as a Trinity anyway, all three are as one in the work, each having their role to perform.
Darren
Exactly. There is no sub section saying that man rejects God's revelation because they aren't regenerated first in order to believe. Any revelation of God can be accepted by lost sinners or rejected. The fool says in his heart there is no God, what because he's not regenerated he's a fool? How is he supposed to know? Well he has no excuse, he was able to except that basic truth or reject it, that was his choice....
Darren
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Rom. 1:21+ teaches that every person has rejected the general revelation of creation. It says none seek for God, all have turned aside.
Therefore, your belief that God will give more truth if the man/woman accepts the truth of revelation found in creation is refuted by the very passage that you quoted.
peace to you
raying:Romans 1:21 doesn't say that. You must be quoting another verse.Rom. 1:21+ teaches that every person has rejected the general revelation of creation. It says none seek for God, all have turned aside.
Therefore, your belief that God will give more truth if the man/woman accepts the truth of revelation found in creation is refuted by the very passage that you quoted.
peace to you
What did Jesus mean when He said:
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
What is it that the Lord will give more of?
I know this is an Arminian principle, but not a biblical one.
Yes. It is biblical.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by canadyjd
How do you deal with the fact that since the Word of God, the gospel, is necessary for salvation, that millions, or perhaps billions, of people will never get a chance to hear the gospel?
First, you avoided answering the question. How do you deal with the fact that millions/billions of people will live and die without hearing the gospel since the gospel is necessary for salvation.
Doesn't that very fact indicate that God has granted some to hear the gospel and some not to ever have the chance?
And FTR, the reformed position does not teach that "God simply showed no interest in saving those whom never heard the gospel..."
Again, you avoided the question.
The answer is consisent with the question of the OP. God has granted some to come to salvation and has not granted others to come to salvation. The method He chose to bring people to salvation ensured His will would be accomplished.
Most of those of the reformed faith (with the exception of hypers) believe the gospel is to be preached to all since we do not know who are the elect.
Not only that, we are to pray for all and have compassion for all and love for all.
peace to you
raying: