Not true at all.
The unregenerate has only one response: ungodliness.
The regenerate is the only one who can either follow his old nature, or obey the new one in him.
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Biblical Order of Salvation
- Thread starter Benefactor
- Start date
Not true at all.
The unregenerate has only one response: ungodliness.
The regenerate is the only one who can either follow his old nature, or obey the new one in him.
Exactly. Only the living are able to choose.
Well, since that must be likewise true of the OT saints/sinners as well, you have a slight problem in proving your position.
Darren
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Why do the dead need blinding?
...yet, Christ says even the wicked will not give his child a stone when they ask for bread. Hardly "ungodliness".
Without scripture to prove your point you have nothing to stand on. Regeneration to understand and hear is a theory of man, and cannot be found in scripture.
MB
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ahhh,
pinoybaptist,
I got your point in your own interpreting.
This is Calvinism's one of the Five Points - "Total Depravity". They believe, all sinners cannot respond because they are all die and without have regenerate from the Holy Spirit, till Holy Spirit touches person first, then person able to respond back to God.
This teaching is false.
First of all, of course, we all were dead in sins -Eph. 1:2, because Adam sinned. Of course, we are all sinners- Romans 3:10; 23.
But, all men are able to respond toward God in many ways.
In Romans 1:20 "For the invisibe things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that [/B]they are WITHOUT EXCUSE[/B]."
This tells us, everything of world things that God created, that we can see them and understand, no excuse for people not believing in God or gospel.
Even, with Indians of hundreds years ago, they knew there is God, because they saw the natural things of outside.
People can see trees, waters, rivers, oceans, mountians, deserts, stars, moon, sun, etc. they knew there is God. No excuse.
But, when we are witnessing the gospel to lost people, Holy Spirit's job is to convicting their hearts, to cause them to make decisions. But, Holy Spirit cannot force them to make decision.
Secondly, Calvinism's another Point of the Five Point- "Iresistible Grace" . They believe a elect can EASILY respond God's calling or accept the gospel without being resisting.
Not always.
Bible warns us that we do not resisting against the Holy Spirit while He is convincing us or talking to us at same time. Yes, elects and lost people CAN resistible against the Holy Spirit in their own wills or decisions.
Many times in Bible says, "Hardened not" obivously, we can resisting against Holy Spirit in our own will with decision and rebel too.
Therefore, Calvinism's all Five Points are fallacy and false.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
pinoybaptist,
I got your point in your own interpreting.
This is Calvinism's one of the Five Points - "Total Depravity". They believe, all sinners cannot respond because they are all die and without have regenerate from the Holy Spirit, till Holy Spirit touches person first, then person able to respond back to God.
This teaching is false.
First of all, of course, we all were dead in sins -Eph. 1:2, because Adam sinned. Of course, we are all sinners- Romans 3:10; 23.
But, all men are able to respond toward God in many ways.
In Romans 1:20 "For the invisibe things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that [/B]they are WITHOUT EXCUSE[/B]."
This tells us, everything of world things that God created, that we can see them and understand, no excuse for people not believing in God or gospel.
Even, with Indians of hundreds years ago, they knew there is God, because they saw the natural things of outside.
People can see trees, waters, rivers, oceans, mountians, deserts, stars, moon, sun, etc. they knew there is God. No excuse.
But, when we are witnessing the gospel to lost people, Holy Spirit's job is to convicting their hearts, to cause them to make decisions. But, Holy Spirit cannot force them to make decision.
Secondly, Calvinism's another Point of the Five Point- "Iresistible Grace" . They believe a elect can EASILY respond God's calling or accept the gospel without being resisting.
Not always.
Bible warns us that we do not resisting against the Holy Spirit while He is convincing us or talking to us at same time. Yes, elects and lost people CAN resistible against the Holy Spirit in their own wills or decisions.
Many times in Bible says, "Hardened not" obivously, we can resisting against Holy Spirit in our own will with decision and rebel too.
Therefore, Calvinism's all Five Points are fallacy and false.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
With all due respects, you are incorrect.
Your question got an answer that in no way inferred, alluded, or referred directly to Total Depravity.
Please go back and reread your question and my answer.
I do not wish to derail this thread.
If you want you can start a thread about your question, cut and copy your question and my answer, and we can go from there.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
DeafPosttrib,
You wrote:
Now, I'm not arguing a particular theology here. I'm saying that your above statement shows a dangerous theological deficiency.
Blessings,
The Archangel
You wrote:
This would have us believe that the Native-American Indians in, say 800 AD, could be saved without hearing the Gospel. You would have us believe that God's revelation through nature is sufficient to save when the Scripture is clear that God's revelation through nature is only sufficient to condemn.
Now, I'm not arguing a particular theology here. I'm saying that your above statement shows a dangerous theological deficiency.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Acts 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
And your point would be???
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Webdog,
First off, your quote of Acts 17 is taken out of context. It is quite clear that Paul is building an argument. In the comments you have posted he is bridging from the typical Greek religion ideas to the Gospel. This is crystal clear from Paul's quoting two Greek persons, a philosopher (probably) and a poet.
It is also clear the Luke abbreviates Paul's gospel presentation because v.32 says, "Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead..."
Secondly, again, you would have us believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel. Christ, the only way of salvation, is not revealed in nature. In other words, the Native-American Indian living in 800 AD could not be "saved" by his or her knowledge of god through nature. Now, will they be judged as severely as those who heard but did not accept the Gospel? No. But, the one without the Gospel cannot be saved.
Again, this is not a Reformed/non-Reformed theological discussion. This is a theological issue in the general sense and, you, if you are agreeing with DeafPosttrib, have a serious theological problem.
Blessings,
The Archangel.
First off, your quote of Acts 17 is taken out of context. It is quite clear that Paul is building an argument. In the comments you have posted he is bridging from the typical Greek religion ideas to the Gospel. This is crystal clear from Paul's quoting two Greek persons, a philosopher (probably) and a poet.
It is also clear the Luke abbreviates Paul's gospel presentation because v.32 says, "Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead..."
Secondly, again, you would have us believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel. Christ, the only way of salvation, is not revealed in nature. In other words, the Native-American Indian living in 800 AD could not be "saved" by his or her knowledge of god through nature. Now, will they be judged as severely as those who heard but did not accept the Gospel? No. But, the one without the Gospel cannot be saved.
Again, this is not a Reformed/non-Reformed theological discussion. This is a theological issue in the general sense and, you, if you are agreeing with DeafPosttrib, have a serious theological problem.
Blessings,
The Archangel.
I have a similar view to Webdog; that man without law and the gospel will be judged on the truth/revelations/light they have been given. Of course there is no guarantee of their eternal future in heaven but they will be judged as God is the righteous Judge and will have a basis of which to judge them by. And I think it is a false assumption that man can only be condemned by the revelations in creation making reprobation a strange kind of punishment and for all intents, the logical assumption must be that all unbelievers are reprobate by reason that they are locked into rejecting further any light God gives them of His presence in the earth...
Darren
I think the context speaks for itself in the verse...it's quite plain. Each human being that comes into this world has been put in the exact location and time to seek God, regardless if they grow up in the home of a baptist pastor, in a country hostile towards Christ, or a remote jungle untouched by the outside. God is "not far" from each person regardless of circumstance. The truth has been made aware to them (not only through nature, but conscience and the desire to live forever), and they are judged based on what they do with the truth that has been presented to them. If one accepts the basic truths about God, I believe further truth will be given.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Who...the one who has accepted the truths presented, or the one who rejects even that? I will point you to the Ethiopian riding on the chariot for the former. The one who rejects the basic truth will reject the Gospel.
I agree with that. Whosoever believes, more will be given, and from those who rebel against the truth, even what they have shall be taken away.
Matt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
To those who seek God and sincerely desire to know him God will give more knowledge. But to those who are indifferent or hate God, God will take away even that which they have been shown.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This is also what is shown in the parable of the sower.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
In this parable the hearer's hearts are compared to soil. The wayside has not been plowed, it is not prepared to receive seed. When seed falls on the wayside it does not penetrate but lies on the surface where the birds can easily come and steal it away.
The good soil was that that was prepared to receive the seed (God's word). It was plowed deep and did not contain stones or thorns and produced much fruit.
It is the hearer that is responsible for the condition of the soil. Nowhere in scripture does it show that God randomly chooses some men to be saved and others lost. The scriptures clearly show God's reasons for giving a man up.
Matt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
To those who seek God and sincerely desire to know him God will give more knowledge. But to those who are indifferent or hate God, God will take away even that which they have been shown.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This is also what is shown in the parable of the sower.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
In this parable the hearer's hearts are compared to soil. The wayside has not been plowed, it is not prepared to receive seed. When seed falls on the wayside it does not penetrate but lies on the surface where the birds can easily come and steal it away.
The good soil was that that was prepared to receive the seed (God's word). It was plowed deep and did not contain stones or thorns and produced much fruit.
It is the hearer that is responsible for the condition of the soil. Nowhere in scripture does it show that God randomly chooses some men to be saved and others lost. The scriptures clearly show God's reasons for giving a man up.
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Did they hear the gospel or never having heard the gospel? Those that reject the gospel do so by their own understanding/response, they are not hard wired to reject God's intervention specifically the gospel. Anyone who rejects the gospel are without hope. Having never heard the gospel is an exception to the rule and God will be a righteous Judge in that case.
Darren