Biblical Order of Salvation

[Benefactor]

Webdog and Darren,

Then how are they saved without the Gospel?

The Archangel

That is a good question and deserves a fair answer. Calvinist posits that the elect are saved regardless and as such they will near the truth. This view assumes that if the gospel is not preached in a specific location for a day or 1000 years that God did not pick any of those in that situation.


Some in the camp that I identify with, those that are not Calvinist, believe that in God's absolute knowledge, to us foreknowledge he knows who will believe and who won't. He knows if a person hears the gospel if they will believe. Also, Jesus said he would draw all men unto Himself and we are told that everyone born into the world are enlighten. How God accomplishes this I do not fully understand but I accept it because the Bible teaches it. No one will die and go to hell having not been enlightened and drawn to Christ. Just as the OT saints had things about the NT hidden from them I believe we have things hidden from us too. How God works and moves in the hearts of these that we say have not heard is unspoken of.

We are to do all we can with the information we have to reach the world with the gospel, regardless.

 

[Darrenss1]

Some in the camp that I identify with, those that are not Calvinist, believe that in God's absolute knowledge, to us foreknowledge he knows who will believe and who won't. He knows if a person hears the gospel if they will believe. Also, Jesus said he would draw all men unto Himself and we are told that everyone born into the world are enlighten. How God accomplishes this I do not fully understand but I accept it because the Bible teaches it. No one will die and go to hell having not been enlightened and drawn to Christ. Just as the OT saints had things about the NT hidden from them I believe we have things hidden from us too. How God works and moves in the hearts of these that we say have not heard is unspoken of.

I pretty much agree with this as well. God therefore can elect believer's from eternity past having foreknowledge of their response to Him. I would point out that those that DO reject the gospel having heard it, were able to accept it and respond but they didn't. The idea that man unless he is regenerated can only reject any and all revelation of God is not consistant with scripture. And I also believe that God has not shared with us the mysteries of how HE goes about accomplishing HIS will of both on the earth and for all eternity. Most of us are like Job, having some idea but we'll find the whole truth with God, is far beyond our understanding....

Darren

 

[The Archangel]

Webdog, Darren,

You didn't answer the question.

Are people saved without the Gospel?

The answer has nothing to do with the Ethiopian Eunuch and it has nothing to do with the soil. It has everything to do with Jesus being the only way of salvation.

Your posts above would have us believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel.

So, again, can a person be saved without the Gospel (That is without hearing it...like the Native American Indians in AD 800)?

I await your answer.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Archangel

I believe men know more than many might believe. Go to Tehran, Iraq open your Bible and preach and see if they know about Jesus Christ. You will find out real quick that they do.

And all civilizations are descended from Noah. One night I presented a link that showed that over 250 ancient civilizations had stories of a great flood, where one man, or family and many animals were saved in a boat.

Here is a page on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

And in Acts when you read the missionary travels of Paul you see that there were established synagogues all over Asia Minor. So there was widespread knowledge of the Old Testament scriptures.

I do believe God only holds a person accountable to what has been revealed, and I think the scriptures support this.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[The Archangel]

Archangel

I believe men know more than many might believe. Go to Tehran, Iraq open your Bible and preach and see if they know about Jesus Christ. You will find out real quick that they do.

And all civilizations are descended from Noah. One night I presented a link that showed that over 250 ancient civilizations had stories of a great flood, where one man, or family and many animals were saved in a boat.

Here is a page on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

And in Acts when you read the missionary travels of Paul you see that there were established synagogues all over Asia Minor. So there was widespread knowledge of the Old Testament scriptures.

I do believe God only holds a person accountable to what has been revealed, and I think the scriptures support this.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I think you are correct that many people know who Jesus is. That, however, is not the point. The point is this: Do they believe in Him?

Knowing about Jesus is not having faith in Him. Placing one's faith and trust in Christ to remove from us our just punishment for our sin at God's hands--that's faith in Christ.

Further, we know that a knowledge of the Old Testament will not bring salvation.

So, again, I will ask: Are people saved without the Gospel?

The Archangel

 

[Alive in Christ]

Order of salvation:

Faith in Christ = Justified eternally, followed by > growing in grace and knowledge.

And the wonderfull thing is that it works for the Calvinist and the Arminian. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Benefactor]

Webdog, Darren,

You didn't answer the question.

Are people saved without the Gospel?

The answer has nothing to do with the Ethiopian Eunuch and it has nothing to do with the soil. It has everything to do with Jesus being the only way of salvation.

Your posts above would have us believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel.

So, again, can a person be saved without the Gospel (That is without hearing it...like the Native American Indians in AD 800)?

I await your answer.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Hi AC,

No one can be saved apart form the necessary truth of their time, dispensation, for us the Gospel as given in the NT. The Gospel will get to all whom God knows will accept the truth. How that is done in all cases is beyond me. The scripture tells us that all men are enlightened that comes into the world John 1:9 and that Jesus will draw all men unto himself John 12:32. We are told for our dispensation that the only way is Jesus. We must believe that. Having said that and making the assumption that in "Bange Bange Land" where no one has heard for years causes us to ponder and wonder why? Yet, here in the US millions have access to the gospel and never believe. Actually, we have people in the US that in spite of the media have not heard. I do not for one minute pretend to understand this, but I do know that the Bible tells me that everyone born into the world is enlightened, not saved and all men are drawn to Christ, not saved and this is not natural revelation as spoken of by Paul. I can surmise at what it means but can't be sure. These two verses indicate that God is doing something in the hearts of all men everywhere that if responded to will result in a positive outcome. This is my opinion and I rest in the fact that God is just. None-the-less, we are under firm instruction to spread the Gospel across the globe.

God knew to pick Judas because He knew under all possibilities He would not trust in God and as such God used him to accomplish his predetermined plan. Judas was used on the basis of God's foreknowledge to accomplish His predetermined plan of Salvation for mankind and all it involves. Likewise, God knows the all the actual and possible outcomes which is beyond my comprehension and explanation. I am not foolish enough to tell God he can’t love everyone and give them a free choice as some do. His justice is because he cannot violate his Holiness and that Holiness is his desire to save all who are born into this world by giving then the opportunity.

If a group of people do not hear the gospel then God knew none of them would responded to the enlightenment and calling of Jesus. The Scriptures are there and must rest in them.

I know you will not accept my answer but I am OK with that but some will. For God so loved the world that He gave us his only begotten son that whosoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Darrenss1]

Your posts above would have us believe that someone can be saved without the Gospel.

There is only 1 way into the New Covenant, that is through faith in Christ and HIM alone. If someone dies without ever hearing the gospel I believe God will judge them by what they did with the light/truth/revelations they had. There is no promise for heaven for those folks, however, it is an exceptional situation.

Darren

 

[The Archangel]

There is only 1 way into the New Covenant, that is through faith in Christ and HIM alone. If someone dies without ever hearing the gospel I believe God will judge them by what they did with the light/truth/revelations they had. There is no promise for heaven for those folks, however, it is an exceptional situation.

Darren

There is no heaven for those people and there cannot be.

As I said earlier, I do not think their judgment will be as severe as, say, a person who has heard the Gospel and yet rejects it. But, there can be no heaven for those who have never heard--for there is one name under heaven by which we can be saved and that is Christ.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Alive in Christ]

"So, again, I will ask: Are people saved without the Gospel?"

No.

But, some people will not hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in the normal way. Meaning, the gospel being articulated verbally and heard through the "ear gate", so to speak.

We all know that millions have lived and died having never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ in the normal way. Do they all automatically perish?

Being a "sola scriptura" guy, I believe it is entirely possible for multitudes, who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ through the "ear gate", to *hear* the gospel inuitively, through direct revelation from Christ Himself, respond positively, and accept Christs offer of salvation through faith alone.

Praise God!

John tells us that every person born into is world is given "Light" from the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1, 9-13)

 

[Brian Bosse]

Hello Alive In Christ,

Being a "sola scriptura" guy, I believe it is entirely possible for multitudes, who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ through the "ear gate", to *hear* the gospel inuitively, through direct revelation from Christ Himself, respond positively, and accept Christs offer of salvation through faith alone.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I just want to make the observation what you are saying here seems somewhat at odds with Romans 10:14. Would you mind commenting on this passage in Romans in light of what you said above?

Thanks,

Brian

 

[The Archangel]

No.

But, some people will not hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in the normal way. Meaning, the gospel being articulated verbally and heard through the "ear gate", so to speak.

We all know that millions have lived and died having never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ in the normal way. Do they all automatically perish?

Being a "sola scriptura" guy, I believe it is entirely possible for multitudes, who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ through the "ear gate", to *hear* the gospel inuitively, through direct revelation from Christ Himself, respond positively, and accept Christs offer of salvation through faith alone.

Praise God!

John tells us that every person born into is world is given "Light" from the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1, 9-13)

Alive in Christ,

Thank you for a thoughtful response.

First, your translation of John 1:9-13--every person born into the world is given light--is not correct. Many Greek scholars, including A.T. Robertson, argue quite convincingly that this cannot be a proper translation.

Second, everyone not believing in Christ does, in fact, perish. There is no hearing intuitively.

Romans 10:14-17 says:

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Paul's questions "how will they call...how will they believe...how will they hear...?" all have the assumed answer "they won't."

Faith comes by hearing (ears, not intuition) and that hearing through the word of Christ--the Gospel.

So, your assumptions about this cannot be correct.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Darrenss1]

There is no heaven for those people and there cannot be.

As I said earlier, I do not think their judgment will be as severe as, say, a person who has heard the Gospel and yet rejects it. But, there can be no heaven for those who have never heard--for there is one name under heaven by which we can be saved and that is Christ.

You would be of course estimating with the view of regeneration before faith, so I'm inclined to think you would reason out that REJECTION is the only path sinners will take. Those that reject creation won't be as severe as those that reject the gospel BUT they are hardwired that they cannot do anything other than reject God and heap onto themselves more an more judgment and wrath.

For me I see that "unsaved" man can accept the things of God such as creation, or the laws of conscience bearing God's witness to them (but not any written law), now if they accept and do well from that but having never heard the gospel I'm not about to write them off to eternal damnation. I think that is up to God alone to judge and I would never know what their responses were anyway. As I said it is an exceptional situation that only God alone can righteously judge.

Darren

 

[Alive in Christ]

Brian...

"I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I just want to make the observation what you are saying here seems somewhat at odds with Romans 10:14. Would you mind commenting on this passage in Romans in light of what you said above?

Rom 10:14 certainly speaks of the commission that we have been given to go into all the world and preach the gospel. I dont mean to diminish that in the least. We all should be about the buisiness of evangelism...sharing with people that Christ is their only hope. I know that I do, as God opens doors. And people who are called to go overseas to places where the gospel has not been are doing just what God has called them to do.

That is the normal way of spreading the gospel.

But then we have the problem of...what of the millions and millions who lived their entire lives and...never heard? Are they doomed to hell for not choosing to believe in Christ....when they never heard of Him? It kinda makes God look like He doesnt quite have all of His bases convered, if not a little sadistic...and we KNOW that isnt the case.

One thing we know is that GOD...IS...FAIR...AND...JUST.



Johns gospel tells us that every person born into the world receives "Light" from Jesus Christ.

Not "some" people.

Everyone.

"That was the true Light, that gives light to every man coming into the world"

Everyone recieves LIGHT...and the context of that "light", is clearly light in regarding to salvation, for it said just a bit earlier...

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

And a few verses later...

"But as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, to those who believe in His name"

In the early chapters of Romans the topic of those who have never heard comes up again, this time being referred to as the Gentiles, who of course were not at all accountable to the Hebrew scriptures as the Jews were. The scriptures dont say categorically that they all are dammed, but rather...

"For the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do those things contained in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their thoughts either accusing or excusing them, in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

I am not at all a universalist. Unfortunely many will reject Gods offer and will be lost.

But to say that millions with be condemned for not believing in someone they have never heard of is beyond comprehension.

I believe the scriptures in John and Romans are very compelling in regard to the idea that Christ Himself personally communicates the saving gospel in the heart and conscience of every person who has never heard it in the normal way, giving them the opportunity to place their faith in Christ, or to reject.

Hope that helps.

 

[The Archangel]

You would be of course estimating with the view of regeneration before faith, so I'm inclined to think you would reason out that REJECTION is the only path sinners will take. Those that reject creation won't be as severe as those that reject the gospel BUT they are hardwired that they cannot do anything other than reject God and heap onto themselves more an more judgment and wrath.

For me I see that "unsaved" man can accept the things of God such as creation, or the laws of conscience bearing God's witness to them (but not any written law), now if they accept and do well from that but having never heard the gospel I'm not about to write them off to eternal damnation. I think that is up to God alone to judge and I would never know what their responses were anyway. As I said it is an exceptional situation that only God alone can righteously judge.

Darren

As I've said before, this has nothing to do with Calvinism or Arminianism. This has nothing to do with regeneration. This has to do with the very fabric of the Christian faith; it has to do with Christ Himself and the Gospel itself.

There simply is no salvation apart from Christ. Period. No faith in Christ, no salvation.

The problem with your second paragraph is that God has already told us what He has judged. Acts 4:12--And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Darren, I'm going to say some hard things to you. Please trust me that this is coming from a Pastor's heart and trust that I have no intention to hurt or infuriate you. These are meant to challenge you, because I see a serious problem. It is my hope that, regardless of yours or my theological system, you will see how your position is not biblical.

The position you (and) others have suggested is a heresy. It isn't heresy because it is part of an Arminian or Calvinist system; it is heresy because it suggests that someone can be saved without explicit faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ.

If we could be saved without Christ, why did Christ have to die?

If the ignorant are saved without Christ, why are we commanded to do missions? To make sure they will only go to Hell?

The biblical position is that anyone and everyone who does not explicitly place their faith and trust in Christ will remain under God's righteous judgment and will spend an eternity in Hell separated from God.

To many this may seem "distasteful." Perhaps that is why some, perhaps like yourself, have tried to say that the general revelation through creation is sufficient to save. It is not. As a pastor (although, not your pastor), I would strongly encourage you to reconsider your position--not on Calvinism--but on this very important salvation issue.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Alive in Christ,

But to say that millions with be condemned for not believing in someone they have never heard of is beyond comprehension.

No, it's biblical.

I believe the scriptures in John and Romans are very compelling in regard to the idea that Christ Himself personally communicates the saving gospel in the heart and conscience of every person who has never heard it in the normal way, giving them the opportunity to place their faith in Christ, or to reject.

The scripture makes no distinction between normal or otherwise. There is only one way--Hearing...with our ears.

Whether man is able to respond by himself or through regeneration is NOT the issue. The issue is how does God save--through Christ. No one else.

In fact, your quote of Romans leaves out Romans 1:16-- For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Salvation comes only through Christ. Not through Creation. As Paul clearly explains, knowledge of God through creation is only sufficient to condemn, it cannot save.

Also, your John 1 understand is wrong according to the Greek. John is not saying that Christ enlightens everyone who comes into the world. The Greek doesn't allow for that.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Alive in Christ]

TheArchangel...

"Paul's questions "how will they call...how will they believe...how will they hear...?" all have the assumed answer "they won't."

Faith comes by hearing (ears, not intuition) and that hearing through the word of Christ--the Gospel."

I agree.

Sharing the gospel with others, be it personal evangelism, missionaries, radio, TV, preaching in church, etc etc etc is what God has called us to do.

Those who enter into a faith relationship with Christ as a result will be saved, those who dont will not.

But those who have never heard in that manner have to be accounted for. We cant just pretend they dont exist. They have existed, and some still exist.

We KNOW that God is not unjust or un-merciful. He is fair, just, and merciful.

And I believe the scriptures do make clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed proclaimed to EVERYONE, not just some *lucky* ones who happen to be born in a time and place where they can hear the gospel in the normal way.

The scriptures tell us that even the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament show His handiwork.

You and I are thoroughly capable of sharing the gospel with someone. Dont you think that God is able to share it as well?...

...with those who will never hear from us???

The scriptures seem to tell us that He can, and does.

 

[Darrenss1]

AsThe position you (and) others have suggested is a heresy. It isn't heresy because it is part of an Arminian or Calvinist system; it is heresy because it suggests that someone can be saved without explicit faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ.

I never said they could get saved without Christ, rather God's judgment upon them may take into account their response to Him. As I said it would have to be an exceptional circumstance, we are talking about those whom NEVER heard the gospel and for the situation it was not available to them at the time.

Darren

 

[Alive in Christ]

Archangel...

"It isn't heresy because it is part of an Arminian or Calvinist system; it is heresy because it suggests that someone can be saved without explicit faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ."

Just speaking for myself I have never said anything of the sort.

I have simply said that based on the scriptures I have shared Jesus Christ can get the gospel message to the mind and heart of any person whom God knows will live their entire life without ever hearing the gospel from a physical witness.

"He (John the baptist) was not that Light, but was sent to give witness to that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man that comes into the world

 

[The Archangel]

TheArchangel...



I agree.

Sharing the gospel with others, be it personal evangelism, missionaries, radio, TV, preaching in church, etc etc etc is what God has called us to do.

Those who enter into a faith relationship with Christ as a result will be saved, those who dont will not.

But those who have never heard in that manner have to be accounted for. We cant just pretend they dont exist. They have existed, and some still exist.

We KNOW that God is not unjust or un-merciful. He is fair, just, and merciful.

The scriptures tell us that even the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament show His handiwork.

You and I are thoroughly capable of sharing the gospel with someone. Dont you think that God is able to share it as well?...

...with those who will never hear from us???

The scriptures seem to tell us that He can, and does.

God being able to share and His ordained means are two different things. God could have written the Gospel on the moon; He could have placed the stars to spell words to share the Gospel, but He didn't.

We, the believers, are the only means that God has given to share the Gospel.

An excerpt:

And I believe the scriptures do make clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed proclaimed to EVERYONE, not just some *lucky* ones who happen to be born in a time and place where they can hear the gospel in the normal way.

You certainly are free to believe that. But the scripture you quote doesn't say that.

I'll return to my analogy: How do you deal with the Native American Indians in AD 800? Were they "enlightened?" We're fairly certain the Gospel had not made it to the new world, how were they saved? If salvation is based on faith in Christ--and it is--how could they be saved?

The Archangel