Your View On Women As Pastors

[gb93433]

That makes number 10. You can see the same answer I would give under the deacon thread when you asked that a 9th time.

If you were to read your Bible then you would understand.

Until you see the role of the local church in your theology, your posts are meaningless.

Could you explain what this has to do with Your View On Women As Pastors ?

 

[saturneptune]

If you were to read your Bible then you would understand.


Could you explain what this has to do with Your View On Women As Pastors ?

What does "did Jesus die for you" have to do with women pastors? I read and have read my Bible, go to Bible study every week etc. Your point does not come through because there is no point to your posts. What does asking "did Jesus die for me" have to do with your hatred of the local church?

 

[Marcia]

I taught through the book of Proverbs verse by verse too and remember one time when I struggled with interpreting a verse and then relied on the structure of Hebrew poetry to solve the problem I had. It has been a long time so I cannot remember the verse. You certainly did use outside help. Nobody operates out of a vacuum except God. Even if you know Hebrew better than anyone in the world you still used outside help. Did you not use the historical background and literary genre of Proverbs to aid in interpreting that book. Has your interpretation been tested by others? If not then you have not opened yourself up to criticism and correction. so it is doubtful that you will really know the strengths and weaknesses of your interpretation.

God gives wisdom. Apparently before Proverbs was thought to be Hebrew poetry they did not have that wisdom necessary to correctly interpret the book. I am quite sure that did not keep people from living for Christ.

Proverbs is Hebrew poetry and most teach it that way today. If you do, then you utilize the work of the liberals and among those were a number of those who also came up with higher criticism. I do not buy into all of higher criticism but parts of it have solved many problems that once were not solved. One of those is to interpret Proverbs as Hebrew poetry.

I find it interesting that there are many things today that conservatives teach that liberals at one time taught.

Whoever promotes truth does not change truth. Truth is still truth.

Studying Proverbs as a genre does not mean one is using Higher Criticism. As I said earlier, Higher Criticism for the most part was/is known for denying the supernatural acts of God and trying to find natural explanations for them. Yes, some of Higher Criticism had some benefit but the bent of Higher Criticism was to deny the miracles and deny the Bible as God's inerrant revelation.

 

[gb93433]

if you apply Proverbs as wisdom you disregard higher criticism and are found to be obedient.

If you are admonished by the Epistles and respond in a godly manner you don't have to worry which principles of higher criticism are right or which ones are wrong.

If you take genre in the context of the literature then you aren't confused.

While I agree with you we have utilized the positive fruit of higher criticism. Before that time a lot of the text was spiritualized. Greek was called Holy Ghost Greek. We have many things today that we take for granted that little was known about 150 years ago and some as more recent as the 1970s.

If one were to read some of the Baptist sermons from a few hundred years ago they would be shocking and doubtful many would agree with the method of interpretation.

 

[gb93433]

Studying Proverbs as a genre does not mean one is using Higher Criticism. As I said earlier, Higher Criticism for the most part was/is known for denying the supernatural acts of God and trying to find natural explanations for them. Yes, some of Higher Criticism had some benefit but the bent of Higher Criticism was to deny the miracles and deny the Bible as God's inerrant revelation.

Proverbs was interpreted among the liberals and promoters of higher criticism the same way we do today. I would contend that while the liberals openly denied the miracles, the conservatives of the day ignored scripture by spiritualizing the text. We see much the same things today. I wouild cointend that truth is truth. In business and in the religious worlds I have seen disobedience on both sides of the fence. Justy look at the SBC folks suing each other in MO. How is that conservatism in accordance with scripture. They are in reality liberals by their application of scripture.

 

[Marcia]

Proverbs was interpreted among the liberals and promoters of higher criticism the same way we do today.

Except they saw it as the word of man, not God. Quite a difference.

I would contend that while the liberals openly denied the miracles, the conservatives of the day ignored scripture by spiritualizing the text

.


This is a false dichotomy. It's not either deny the miracles or spiritualize the text. I hate spiritualizing. Imo, most of the ones who do this are amillienists.

We see much the same things today. I wouild cointend that truth is truth

What does this have to do with anything? The Bible's truth is God's truth or it isn't. Higher critics said/say it isn't.

In business and in the religious worlds I have seen disobedience on both sides of the fence. Justy look at the SBC folks suing each other in MO. How is that conservatism in accordance with scripture. They are in reality liberals by their application of scripture.

Red herring.

Have you gone off topic because you can't show biblical support for women pastors?

 

[Marcia]

11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim 2.

 

[annsni]

11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim 2.

Marcia - You ever feel like you're screaming the answer in class and NO one is noticing you? I've yet to see anywhere a good argument for this passage being "cultural" AND including Adam and Eve and the creation order.

I'd take some aspirin for the headache you're most likely getting from banging your head on the wall like this :BangHead:

 

[gb93433]

What does "did Jesus die for you" have to do with women pastors? I read and have read my Bible, go to Bible study every week etc. Your point does not come through because there is no point to your posts. What does asking "did Jesus die for me" have to do with your hatred of the local church?

Considering Jesus died for us and rose again ought to have an impact on our attitude. That is the reason why I asked you that question so many times.

The fact is that I am involved in the local church and met with the pastor just a few weeks ago and also had his family over for dinner a few days ago. We are also involved in helping another discouraged local pastor.
So I find it hard to believe why you could be filled with such judgment and gossip.

If you loved your convention more you would do something to speak out against such unbiblical nonsense published in the national news so all can listen and read about what the SBC in MO is doing and how they treat one another in their efforts to sue one another.

God hates a lying tongue, gossip, and deceit.

 

[Amy.G]

Marcia - You ever feel like you're screaming the answer in class and NO one is noticing you? I've yet to see anywhere a good argument for this passage being "cultural" AND including Adam and Eve and the creation order.

I'd take some aspirin for the headache you're most likely getting from banging your head on the wall like this :BangHead:

To add, have you ever noticed that most Christian women do not have a desire to pastor? Do you think the Holy Spirit has anything to do with that? Maybe we don't want to pastor because the Holy Spirit testifies to us that we shouldn't? Just a thought.

 

[annsni]

To add, have you ever noticed that most Christian women do not have a desire to pastor? Do you think the Holy Spirit has anything to do with that? Maybe we don't want to pastor because the Holy Spirit testifies to us that we shouldn't? Just a thought.

I think that's right on. Besides, I've got enough being a wife, a mother, a pastor's wife, a media specialist, a dressage trainer (horses) and the only local child of a man in his 80s. Forget pastoring! I'll leave that to my husband and the other men that God has raised to pastor our church.

 

[gb93433]

This is a false dichotomy. It's not either deny the miracles or spiritualize the text. I hate spiritualizing. Imo, most of the ones who do this are amillienists.

It was before that time. Look at those who took the allegorical approach and those among some of the early dispensationalists who followed Darby.

What does this have to do with anything? The Bible's truth is God's truth or it isn't. Higher critics said/say it isn't.

I agree but we have to realize that just because those who declare it as God's word does not mean that they really do believe it by the way they live. Just lok at the BFA and the SBC folks in MO suing each other. In a real sense anyone who declares it as God's word and lives a lie is just as good as those who are disobedient.

Have you gone off topic because you can't show biblical support for women pastors?

While it is off topic is not to support women pastors. I believe there are not only biblical reasons but also practical reason why men should lead. Many a pastor will say that if it were not for the women not much would get done. Why?

Years ago I had a church call me and the woman asked me if I was interested in the church. Then as we talked she asked me if I visited people in the church. I told her that I did.She said, "Good because the men in the church are so busy that they do not have time to do anything." I then told her that I grew up on a dairy farm not far from her and we found time for what is important. In a church where the men are not willing to lead then anyone who will tickle their ears will do.

 

[gb93433]

11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Do you support women's conferences then? Are they not separate from the local church?

 

[Marcia]

Do you support women's conferences then? Are they not separate from the local church?

Where have I said anything about the local church? You're mixing me up with someone else.

 

[annsni]

Do you support women's conferences then? Are they not separate from the local church?

Are women at women's conferences teaching men? Are they in authority over men? Nope - I've not seen it unless you get into some of the Word of Faith women preachers.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia - You ever feel like you're screaming the answer in class and NO one is noticing you? I've yet to see anywhere a good argument for this passage being "cultural" AND including Adam and Eve and the creation order.

I'd take some aspirin for the headache you're most likely getting from banging your head on the wall like this :BangHead:

Yes! No one who supports women pastors will respond to or address this passage.

Pass the Advil!

 

[gb93433]

Where have I said anything about the local church? You're mixing me up with someone else.

You did not say anything about them but did you not post the verses about women learning in quiet submission? If a women is to learn in quiet submission then how does going to women's conferences which are typically apart from a local church apply that kind of teaching.

 

[gb93433]

Are women at women's conferences teaching men? Are they in authority over men? Nope - I've not seen it unless you get into some of the Word of Faith women preachers.

I have heard them come home and talk about what they heard and how we ought to have women's programs when I was trying to get the men to step up to the plate and be men and lead the church first. It is not unusual that men will lead at work but in the church if the work is done by women the men will not lead.

 

[Marcia]

You did not say anything about them but did you not post the verses about women learning in quiet submission? If a women is to learn in quiet submission then how does going to women's conferences which are typically apart from a local church apply that kind of teaching.

Look at the context - the point is that a woman is not to teach men. You are taking one statement by itself. It's not by itself. Should I post it again?

 

[annsni]

You did not say anything about them but did you not post the verses about women learning in quiet submission? If a women is to learn in quiet submission then how does going to women's conferences which are typically apart from a local church apply that kind of teaching.

I've been to a couple of them - I'm usually pretty quiet when I'm there (that is until the time afterwards and the ladies get out to go shopping!).