A question for the Calvinists

[The Archangel]

And? An interpretation is just that. As I said, show me where there was any widespread regeneration in the OC, the fact is, Jews under the law in the OT were not regenerated. The ministry of the HS after the ascension of Christ in the church age is new and was unique from anything previous in the OT. There are lots of mysteries revealed about God in the NT, OT regeneration was not among them. Clearly this goes back to inference, the same as the claim that man must be regenerated before they can believe. The fact that Jer 31:31 speaks of the NC factors in what God will do, future tense not for that present time.

Darren

Yes....but....

There is a major parallel between what God does for the people Israel and what He does for the people of the church.

In the New Covenant, God writes His law on the hearts of His people.

In the Old Covenant, God gives His law to a specific group of people at Sinai.

In both instances these actions were actions of Grace. Both instances show God doing something that was not universal (eg. the Philistines and the Amalekites didn't also receive the law).

So, again--and with all due respect, you are having a big issue with this because you refuse to let the New Testament inform your understanding of the Old.

If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (which He is) and if His Modus operandi in the New Testament is regeneration (which it is), it has to be that there was regeneration in the Old Testament.

Were the circumstances different? Sure. Was God absolutely and intimately involved in keeping a people for Himself--a faithful remnant? Without a doubt. He has not changed His ways.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

So if you are suggesting that God regenerates unbelievers before they believe yet without the HS indwelling, where is this teaching found? Being born-again is clearly from what I can see a work of the HS upon indwelling new believers of the NC, those whom have received the atoning work of Christ applied to them. Where are the OT examples to make the case.

Darren

Yep, the scriptures say that if the Holy Spirit does not dwell in you, you are none of his.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well, show scriptures that clearly show OT saints were regenerated and had the indwelling Spirit. Should be easy if it is so.

as I explained, it is a theological point based on the unchanging nature of man. the NT clearly says that man is totally depraved, and must be regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit in order to have eternal life and follow God. Since man's nature is the same in the OT and NT, the solution to man's nature must be the same.

This "show me a verse" is nonsense.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So if you are suggesting that God regenerates unbelievers before they believe yet without the HS indwelling

I am not suggesting that.

Where are the OT examples to make the case.

All of them. Show me one person in the OT who was pleasing to God who was not regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit. FAct is, you can't do it. (because you are using the wrong method and asking the wrong question.)

 

[Darrenss1]

as I explained, it is a theological point based on the unchanging nature of man. the NT clearly says that man is totally depraved, and must be regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit in order to have eternal life and follow God. Since man's nature is the same in the OT and NT, the solution to man's nature must be the same.

Goes to show that 4 points of Calvinism are tied up to regeneration preceding faith. IF the Calvinist view that the bible teaches man is Totally Depraved according to Calvin's view and its "clear" then there wouldn't be any other interpretations would there. :laugh:

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

All of them. Show me one person in the OT who was pleasing to God who was not regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit. FAct is, you can't do it. (because you are using the wrong method and asking the wrong question.)

Wrong I produced verses that show that being born again is for the NC, that puts you in the drivers seat to show otherwise. Good luck. :godisgood:

Darren

 

[Amy.G]

Was Abraham or Noah indwelt with the Spirit? I'm not saying they weren't, I just don't recall scripture saying so. As I recall they were declared righteous because they believed God.

 

[Benefactor]

Was Abraham or Noah indwelt with the Spirit? I'm not saying they weren't, I just don't recall scripture saying so. As I recall they were declared righteous because they believed God.

OT saints the HS was with them and in the NT in us.
Benefactor

 

[Allan]

Was Abraham or Noah indwelt with the Spirit? I'm not saying they weren't, I just don't recall scripture saying so. As I recall they were declared righteous because they believed God.

No, the indwelling is specific to the NT. However regeneration is not dependant upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit only that a persons nature has been renewed/changed through justification and sanctification by grace through faith. The Spirit of the Lord came upon different people but not all people but by the same token he also left God's people. It was for this reason that David proclaimed 'do not take your holy Spirit from me'.

It is important to note that in Duet when you read where God commands the people to choose between life and death, this part is speaking about spiritual life. When we are speaking about spiritual life we, as a matter of necessity must be speaking of the 'regeneration' or renewing of the old man into it's original 'living' (pertaining to it's relationship with God) state as it was in the beginning.

Thus if a person was 'not' regenerate (made to be alive toward God) then the Spirit of God could not come upon them/into them because they were not right before God and thus not alive unto and in God.

 

[Darrenss1]

There is a major parallel between what God does for the people Israel and what He does for the people of the church.

Agreed. However there are limitations to the comparison.

In the New Covenant, God writes His law on the hearts of His people.
In the Old Covenant, God gives His law to a specific group of people at Sinai.

I can't believe how simple it is, yet you let your preferences prevent the obvious. The Holy Spirit regenerated because of HIS permanent indwelling of the new believer. Thus God effected change within the heart of each individual, something the OT OC could never do and we know it never did, thus the need for God to write His laws within the inner man, to regenerate that man, giving him the power to become a spiritual child of God.

In both instances these actions were actions of Grace. Both instances show God doing something that was not universal (eg. the Philistines and the Amalekites didn't also receive the law).

And? I don't see the point you are making there....

So, again--and with all due respect, you are having a big issue with this because you refuse to let the New Testament inform your understanding of the Old.

I would say the same to you and the other Calvinist.

If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (which He is) and if His Modus operandi in the New Testament is regeneration (which it is), it has to be that there was regeneration in the Old Testament.

So God wrote the law on the hearts of those in the OC? Proving one thing by a completely different factor is obvious. God doesn't change but we know that God did things at certain times in certain places to certain people. At one point Christ died on the cross, ok, new thing or old, you tell me. Could the Jews have access to the atoning Blood of Jesus 1000 years before Christ died on the cross? The new covenant, the same yesterday today and forever? Not exactly as it had a beginning point in time, after which the death of Christ and His ascension. Could there be a NC before Christ came? No, there was just the OC. This is a clear point that was made in Hebrews from what I can see. Being born-again is a crirical element sown into the NC not the old. I believe its that simple.

Were the circumstances different? Sure. Was God absolutely and intimately involved in keeping a people for Himself--a faithful remnant? Without a doubt. He has not changed His ways.

There is lots of things God has done towards man that is different. The remnant, did they believe in order to be classed as a remnant? Did they believe to be saved? That much is the same but we know they were under different covenants. So why are you guys trying to sidestep the issue, of proving regeneration preceding faith in the OT and additionally born-again Jews of the OC? Remember there are 2 issues, neither one proves the other.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

It is important to note that in Duet when you read where God commands the people to choose between life and death, this part is speaking about spiritual life. When we are speaking about spiritual life we, as a matter of necessity must be speaking of the 'regeneration' or renewing of the old man into it's original 'living' (pertaining to it's relationship with God) state as it was in the beginning.

Thus if a person was 'not' regenerate (made to be alive toward God) then the Spirit of God could not come upon them/into them because they were not right before God and thus not alive unto and in God.

And how did this work for King Saul? If what you are saying is the HS has to come upon a spiritually prepared individual how did this teaching function in the example of Saul? We can talk about OT regeneration till the cows come home, how did it happen? I believe the bible teaches regeneration/born-again is unique to the NC because of the indwelling Holy Spirit on a sinner whose heart/sins has been cleased by the atoning blood of Jesus, making it possible for the Holy Spirit to take up residence in that vessel, for without which it was not possible.

Darren

 

[Allan]

And how did this work for King Saul? If what you are saying is the HS has to come upon a spiritually prepared individual how did this teaching function in the example of Saul?

Ok, first off.. what about him?

I believe the bible teaches regeneration/born-again is unique to the NC because of the indwelling Holy Spirit on a sinner whose heart/sins has been cleased by the atoning blood of Jesus, making it possible for the Holy Spirit to take up residence in that vessel, for without which it was not possible.

Ok, here I agree but let me break it down as to why.
Your statement here is correct:

I believe the bible teaches regeneration/born-again is unique to the NC because of the indwelling Holy Spirit on a sinner whose heart/sins has been cleased...

This is indeed something that never transpired in the OT. But let us look at what you said to understand why.
You are correct here as well:

...the indwelling Holy Spirit on a sinner whose heart/sins has been cleased by the atoning blood of Jesus, making it possible for the Holy Spirit to take up residence in that vessel, for without which it was not possible

Their hearts had been 'cleansed' by Christ's blood, though they were determined by God to be justified toward Him by faith, just as the OT saints were also determined to be justified by God toward Him by faith. So the question being asked why did the Holy Spirit not indwell them if they were justified?

Answer: Their sins were only 'covered' and not removed therefore it was not possible for the Holy Spirit to indwell them.

However salvation was still by grace through faith, and justification still equated them as in a right standing before a Holy God. Regeneration is the coming alive unto God and therefore is equated in the NT with salvation because it was equated with salvation in the OT even though it was not specifically mentioned as such. However we do see the same things in relation to salvation - life, love of God, obedience toward God, cleaving to Him. We find these in the NT describing what happens at the regeneration toward man but in the OT you will find the same thing when they are asked to 'choose life', as all the above follow after the choice of life in the OT. The distiinction is a difference in the dynamics of what transpires now as to then in the OT. Now that sin is removed the Spirit of God can now indwell man, and thus He can now place man 'into' Christ because his sin has been removed and is able to come into a holy God.

At least that is the way I see it.

 

[Darrenss1]

Ok, first off.. what about him?

Saul was not an example of a spiritually prepared man from what I see. In the end the HS departed and was replaced by a tormenting spirit.

We find these in the NT describing what happens at the regeneration toward man but in the OT you will find the same thing when they are asked to 'choose life', as all the above follow after the choice of life in the OT. The distiinction is a difference in the dynamics of what transpires now as to then in the OT.

Because this is the first I've heard of this I'll wait and comment after I have another look, specifically whether "choose life" is spiritual life.

:thumbs:

Darren

 

[Allan]

Saul was not an example of a spiritually prepared man from what I see. In the end the HS departed and was replaced by a tormenting spirit.

But he also had the Spirit of the Lord upon as well.

Paul also received to himself a 'buffeting' spirit. But not due to the same issues

Because this is the first I've heard of this I'll wait and comment after I have another look, specifically whether "choose life" is spiritual life.

:thumbs:

Darren

Here is where I quoting from:

Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 ¶ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

You will notice that Paul quotes verse 14 in Romans 10 when he is speaking of believing in respect to salvation (life) and thus the apostle believed that is exactly what God was meaning as seen here:

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
...
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Then back to the Deut passage, we notice God through Moses declares what happens if they (whom the word was nigh) reject (choose death). Then we note he goes on to describe what will happen when one chooses life (believes):

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Notice that verse 20 descibes what transpires when one believes/chooses life is, in general, the same things the NT says describes. Of course being placed into Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are distictly absent here because neither can happen apart from the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Darrenss1]

But he also had the Spirit of the Lord upon as well.

Yeah but that would be partial spirituality or temporary spirituality. In the same light is this the appropriate equivalency for OT regeneration?

You will notice that Paul quotes verse 14 in Romans 10 when he is speaking of believing in respect to salvation (life) and thus the apostle believed that is exactly what God was meaning. Then we notice God, through Moses, declares what happens if they (whom the word was nigh, even in their hearts) reject (choose death). Then we note he goes on to describe what will happen when one chooses life (believes):

Thats faith but not regeneration. As I said I believe man can respond to God in faith. IS OT regeneration/spirituality permenant? Could they lose it?

Darren

 

[Allan]

Yeah but that would be partial spirituality or temporary spirituality. In the same light is this the appropriate equivalency for OT regeneration?

No, it would simply mean that due to sin or His choosing He would/could leave. No one in the OT could loose their salvation any more than the people of the NT. God promises with respect to eternal security it the same in both places.

Thats faith but not regeneration. As I said I believe man can respond to God in faith. IS OT regeneration/spirituality permenant? Could they lose it?

If you look at verse 19 (choose life) is faith, verse 20 is specific to those things that did not exist prior to faith/believing/choosing life. Loving God, cleaving to Him, obtaining life, obeying His voice, all speak to a regenerate person because it is specific to 'after' belief/choosing life and is noted as such in the statement 'choose life - that you may... IOW- until they make the choice it was something that was not previously or presently in them to do of their own selves.

With respect to your question: IS OT regeneration/spirituality permenant? Could they lose it?
No it is salvation, and that salvation was contingent upon God being faithful to His word, not them trying to maintain something they could not earn in the first place.

 

[Darrenss1]

No, it would simply mean that due to sin or His choosing He would/could leave. No one in the OT could loose their salvation any more than the people of the NT. God promises with respect to eternal security it the same in both places.

OK but let's not confuse the OC with the new. The Holy Spirit indwelt the believer in the NC but not the old. So they had a type of spirituality (I don't liken that to regeneration at all) but it was not the same as the spirituality of the NC by any stretch of the imagination.

If you look at verse 19 (choose life) is faith, verse 20 is specific to those things that did not exist prior to faith/believing/choosing life. Loving God, cleaving to Him, obtaining life, obeying His voice, all speak to a regenerate person because it is specific to 'after' belief/choosing life and is noted as such in the statement 'choose life - that you may... IOW- until they make the choice it was something that was not previously or presently in them to do of their own selves.

With respect to your question: IS OT regeneration/spirituality permenant? Could they lose it?
No it is salvation, and that salvation was contingent upon God being faithful to His word, not them trying to maintain something they could not earn in the first place.

OK but how does this work together with the verses I quoted previously? They could choose spiritual life and be made spiritual and were regenerated (unless being regenerated is the same as saying being spiritually alive?) because of that, yet the HS could not indwell them, the HS could depart and God did NOT write HIS laws on the inward man, or give them a heart of flesh. Where does this leave being born again according to what Pastor Larry said Nicodemus should have known as OT Jews in the OC were in fact born-again Jews?

Eze 11:19, 36:26, Jer 31:33-34 or Heb 8:7-10

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

Goes to show that 4 points of Calvinism are tied up to regeneration preceding faith.

As a Calvinist who denies that regeneration precedes faith, I can assure you that you are wrong.

IF the Calvinist view that the bible teaches man is Totally Depraved according to Calvin's view and its "clear" then there wouldn't be any other interpretations would there.

Except for the very fact of total depravity. Man doesn't believe it because of the noetic effects of sin. Sin is deceptive, and as a result, no man wants to think he is as bad as he really is.

Even Arminians agree with Calvinists about total depravity. They simply disagree on the solution to it. Someone who denies total depravity is not even an Arminian. He is a Pelagian or semi-Pelagian.

Wrong I produced verses that show that being born again is for the NC, that puts you in the drivers seat to show otherwise. Good luck.

I missed these verses. As I recall, you showed verses that show that being born again takes place in the NC. You didn't show any verses that show that being born again takes place only in the NC. And that's a big difference. I can say that cars have motors. But that doesn't mean that only cars have motors. If you understand the NC, you understand that it is not simply about regeneration. Your position would mean that no one prior to the death of Christ had eternal life, because regeneration is what gives us eternal life.

 

[Lux et veritas]

If the Holy Spirit did not indwell saints under the Old Covenant, then how does one go about interpreting these verses:

Gen. 41:38 (Re: Joseph) And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Num. 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

Clearly the Spirit of God dwelt within these men. To view the New Covenant as strictly limited to regeneration is to miss it almost entirely. It has to do with much more than that.

God has always saved sinners through grace. (E.g. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, etc.).

No man can be saved apart from being regenerated - born again. (Even the great master / teacher of Isreal, Nicodemus ought to have known that!)

To have men 'saved' and going to heaven, and even being called "the church" in the Old Testament, yet not having been regenerated leaves us with a whole different methodolgy of salvation which is contrary to a purely spiritual work of grace.

 

[zrs6v4]

As a Calvinist who denies that regeneration precedes faith, I can assure you that you are wrong.

Not to get far off subject, but I wrestled with this before and have recently been trying to test my view again regarding the order of regeneration and faith (which comes first).

anyway, how do you view how God sovereignly brings about faith without regeneration first?

I dont want to take over the thread so you may PM me if you'd like.