A question for the Calvinists

Well, we really shouldn't argue about how long this process takes, no one knows, and that is not what is important. I myself believe that the moment a person believes they receive the Spirit and it is all pretty much an instantaneous thing.

Where I differ with you is that I believe a person dead in sins can believe. And Ephesians 1:13 agrees with this. It says a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then receives the Spirit. And this verse is very specific about the order of events and contains the word "after" twice.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

There's no getting around this verse. There is not another verse in the Bible that is so specific and detailed about the order of events in salvation. If you think there is, I would love to see it.

If a person does not receive the Spirit until after believeing, then that person had to be spiritually dead when they believed.

You may not like that, but that is what the scriptures clearly say.

And there are several examples of people who believed and did not receive the Spirit until later. Paul was an example. He first heard God's word when Jesus spoke to him on the road to Damascus. He believed. But he did not receive the Holy Spirit until days later.

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

You may not like it, but Paul heard the Lord speak and believed three days before he received the Holy Spirit.

 

Yes, that is amazing how you turn these verses around to say exactly the opposite of what they really say.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What comes first here, receiving and believeing on Christ, or God giving them the power (the Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God?

You must first hear the word of God and receive or believe it. Only then does God give the Holy Spirit. You are not regenerated until you receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You can't have faith until you first hear the word of God, and you can't receive the Holy Spirit until after you believe which requires faith.

And verse Rom 10:14 shows you can't call on Jesus unless you believe, and you can't possibly believe unless you have first heard of him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that (#1)heareth my word, and (#2)believeth on him that sent me,(#3)hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall (#1)hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that (#2)hear shall (#3)live.

There it is, plain as day in vs. 24, you must hear and believe. And it is made absolutely clear in the very next verse when Jesus said the hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the DEAD shall HEAR the voice of the Son of God: and they that HEAR shall live.

Calvinists don't like this because it proves their doctrine error, but Jesus himself said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear (which means to receive or believe) will live.

Once again, the order you will always see in scripture.

1) You must hear the word of God
2) You must believe
3) You receive the Holy Spirit and are quickened or regenerated.

 

More scripture showing this order.

Acts 2:37 Now when they (#1)heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, (#2)Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (#3)and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Were they saved when they heard the word of God and their heart was convicted? No, else Peter would have not needed to tell them to repent. And what does Peter say will happen if they repent? They will receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Were they saved or regenerated when they heard Peter preaching the word of God? No, because Peter told them to "save themselves" which also shows man plays a part in his own salvation. You really don't believe Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would teach false doctrine do you? And then it shows those who gladly received his word (believed) were added to the church.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Here Peter had just preached a long sermon. Were the people saved? No, because Peter told them to repent. And what does Peter say will happen if they repent and believe? That God will send Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to them.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Here these people heard Philip preaching and then believed. But none had yet received the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down later and laid hands on them.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Here Peter had preached to Cornelius and his family. And when they believed the word of God the Holy Ghost fell on them.

So these are all examples showing the order of events in salvation, first you hear the word of God, then believe, then receive the Spirit.

 

There is so much wrong with that, I don't know where to begin.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you are correct, and God first regerates a man to receive Christ (which is explained further as believeing on him), then you are teaching that a man who has already been made alive by Christ needs to be born again.

Why would somebody who is already spirtually alive need to receive Christ? Why would God have to give them the power to become the sons of God if they are already born of God?

You got part of that right. No one is saved through the blood. John the Baptist showed that no one was saved because they were the physical descendent of Abraham.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

But when verse 13 says we were not born of the will of the flesh, or the will of man, it is not saying that man's will is not involved in salvation. It is saying that the Gospel, the method that God has chosen to save man was wholly God's idea and plan and man played no part in it.

And very experience shows this. Look at all the religions in the world, what do they teach? Except for true Christianity they all teach that a man can earn his way to heaven by his own efforts.

There are really only two religions in the world, those who trust in Christ, and those who trust in their own goodness or works.

Man, if left to himself to devise a method of salvation will ALWAYS without fail choose works. And the history of religion proves this.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So, give man his way and he will always choose works. Even some who call themselves Christian feel they have to add works to God's simple plan of salvation. They will say you have to be baptized to be saved, or go to church on Saturday, or keep the law.

This is the most difficult part of salvation, getting a man to trust Jesus Christ alone. Some call those who preach that a person only need believe on Christ to be saved of "easy believeism". They say it is easy, but it is not easy for them, they always have to add something extra to the Gospel.

Without God's word, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else would ever dream up the idea of God himself coming to the world and being born in the flesh under the law, going to the cross bearing our sins, and rising from the dead.

So the Gospel, the plan and method of salvation is 100% God's idea and 100% of his will alone. That is what verse 13 is saying.

Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

And a little more.

Here is my problem (well, one, I have many) with the Calvinistic teaching that man is regenerated by God to believe. This may sound a little silly, but bear with me.

One day you are walking down the street. You are unsaved. You have no real interest in God or the scriptures, and the little you have heard you disagree with. None of it makes the least bit of sense to you, you cannot understand it at all, it is just foolish jibberish as far as you are concerned. You do not really believe God even exists, because science has proved that we all evolved billions of years ago. The Bible is just a book of myths written by ignorant superstitious men thousands of years ago.

Then suddenly everything changes. You suddenly feel a deep need to seek God. You are not really sure why. You cannot explain this change in your disposition. But it is real.

OK, here's my question. Are you saved now? Or do you need to hear the gospel and accept Jesus as your saviour? What if you do not hear the gospel for another two weeks? Are you saved until then? Are you born again before you hear the gospel?

You see, John 1:12 says God gave the power to become the sons of God to those who believe. But how can you be regenerated to believe unless you have something to believe in?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You see, the Bible clearly teaches you must first hear the gospel, then believe. And only after hearing the gospel and believeing do you receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I am going to keep posting Eph 1:13. That is God's word and it is not going to go away no matter how much you persist in teaching that God regenerates a man and then he believes. That is not what the scriptures say.