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A question for the Calvinists
- Thread starter Winman
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That feller is wrong...as that is what the analogy implies.
If the point is made in one or two lines, there is no need to elaborate. The analogy is simple...you guys make it difficult. Sheep hear and respond by following. Pretty simple if you ask me.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
I agree. And people hear and don't believe because they are not His sheep.
That doesnt say why or how.
So what makes man believe?
1) Satan
2) His sinful nature
3) The Holy Spirit
I'll give you a hint; it's not the first 2.
I'll give you a hint...nobody "makes" man believe in the same way nobody "makes" man not believe.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
So God does nothing? Man just spontanously believes?
He didn't say that, he said 'makes' or to 'force' someone to believe.
I will give Jauthor credit though, he at least is one of the few who will state that God does indeed force men to believe.
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God saves, He doesn't believe for us or make us believe. If He does, He also makes us sin as well. What you state is pelagianism.
Psalm 22:9, "Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast."
So you better start reading the bible if you claim to speak for God.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Who teaches God believes for them?
Psalm 22:9, "Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast."
So you better start reading the bible if you claim to speak for God.
I would encourage you to learn context.
There is not one non-Cal or Arminian who thinks they believed of or by themselves, that it was God who indeed brought them to faith. It is from this very premise that David speaks and we do as well. It was God who made us to believe but He did not force us to believe and some did not.
When you see in scripture "I have called but you have refused" or 'I have stretched out arms to a disobedient and gainsaying people' or "when you hear the Lord, do not harden your hearts', what do you think these refer to? (amoung many others)
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ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
What does God do to man?
As I read the Scriptures...to the elect alone...
1. He makes us accepted in Christ.
2. He makes the mystery of His will known to us.
3. He made us come alive in Christ.
4. He raise us up and made us sit with Christ in heavenly places.
5. He made us come near (Gentiles) by His blood.
Just to name a few.. :thumbsup:
As I read the Scriptures...to the elect alone...
1. He makes us accepted in Christ.
2. He makes the mystery of His will known to us.
3. He made us come alive in Christ.
4. He raise us up and made us sit with Christ in heavenly places.
5. He made us come near (Gentiles) by His blood.
Just to name a few.. :thumbsup:
You bet! And all but #1 and 2 of the above come into being only - by faith.
But even #1 entails faith at some point because that is the only way we become one with the Holy Christ.
Good post. I'll add more:
1) He creates and destroys
2) He opens the eyes of the blind
3) He hardens hearts
4) He gives us; faith, love, joy, hope, patience, self-control
5) He keeps us strong
6) He leads us out of temptation
7) He delivers us from evil
8) He keeps the righteous from harm
9) He establishes all authorities on earth
10) He determines our steps
11) He prepares some for noble purposes and others for common use
12) He works in us to act and will according to His purpose
13) He gives life and takes it away
14) He determines how long we will live
15) He determines how we will die
16) He punishes the wicked
17) He chooses the despised things of the world
18) He controls the weather
19) He controls animals
20) He makes the wisdom of the world look foolish
21) He controls Satan
Just a faction of the fact that God does absolutely everything. To God and only God be the glory.
1) He creates and destroys
2) He opens the eyes of the blind
3) He hardens hearts
4) He gives us; faith, love, joy, hope, patience, self-control
5) He keeps us strong
6) He leads us out of temptation
7) He delivers us from evil
8) He keeps the righteous from harm
9) He establishes all authorities on earth
10) He determines our steps
11) He prepares some for noble purposes and others for common use
12) He works in us to act and will according to His purpose
13) He gives life and takes it away
14) He determines how long we will live
15) He determines how we will die
16) He punishes the wicked
17) He chooses the despised things of the world
18) He controls the weather
19) He controls animals
20) He makes the wisdom of the world look foolish
21) He controls Satan
Just a faction of the fact that God does absolutely everything. To God and only God be the glory.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
I would not expect the most ardent non-cal/armin to disagree with my above post. At least I hope not...I took it straight from Ephesians..! lol
Amen!
I don't speak for God, nor have I claimed such. Debate would be more fruitful without the backhanded insults, btw....and Allan is right...please learn what context means :BangHead:Psalm 22:9, "Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast."
So you better start reading the bible if you claim to speak for God.
Here's why they "refused": DT. 29:4, "But to this day, the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that can see or ears that can hear."
They didn't refuse to believe because they wanted eternal separation from God or his wrath. :laugh: Good grief.
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