Question for Arminians

[Allan]

Who said man is capable of making himself righteous? The scriptures say that if we believe on Christ righteouness shall be imputed to us.
Man is given the free will choice of believeing on Christ or not.

It might be best to state that man can not do this without the influence and moving of the Holy Spirit.

And this is shown in this passage.

Actaully, this passage doesn't show they were 'spiritually dead' only that they were old.

However what will make your case is Deut 30:19,20.
In which they are given a choice, to choose (spiritual) life or death.
And the passage states Choose life that you may or so that you will, love God, obey God, cleave to Him, and have life.

All of those things come after choosing life and not prior to it, which contradicts the reformed view of regeneration and it's preceding faith.

 

[Winman]

And Allan, I agree with you, they never address the scriptures we post to support our beliefs. I mean, if you think I am wrong in how I understand a passage of scripture, then show me where I am wrong. I am open to that.

But all I see is a total disregard for scripture.

 

[Winman]

It might be best to state that man can not do this without the influence and moving of the Holy Spirit.


Actaully, this passage doesn't show they were 'spiritually dead' only that they were old.

However what will make your case is Deut 30:19,20.
In which they are given a choice, to choose (spiritual) life or death.
And the passage states Choose life that you may or so that you will, love God, obey God, cleave to Him, and have life.

All of those things come after choosing life and not prior to it, which contradicts the reformed view of regeneration and it's preceding faith.

Allan, I agree, it is speaking of the physical here. But I believe it is a picture of salvation. I think it is notable that Roman 4:19 twice mentions the deadness of Abraham and Sara, their complete inability to bare children.

But Abraham and Sara believed WHILE they were in this state of deadness. After all, this is what made Abraham's faith so note-worthy and great. And the following verses very clearly point that out (not weak in faith, staggered not, strong in faith, fully persuaded).

And this passage is not speaking of the physical only, in fact the whole passage is speaking of Abraham having righteouness imputed to him. It is speaking of the spiritual and using the story of God's promise to Abraham and Sara as an example. In fact, I know this is the case, because the scriptures say it was not written for Abraham's sake only, but for us also. I hardly believe God is promising us children here, he is speaking of salvation.

 

[Rippon]

But if God elects certain men to mercy, and others to wrath then God would be breaking his own law.

Everything God does is right and no one should challenge Him. But you dare to. The Lord does indeed elect some, i.e. has compassion on them and hardens others.That's the God of the Bible -- the only God. You don't like that based on sentimental reasons. But you are dead wrong. You need to submit to the Word of God.

I believe only those who choose to trust and believe on Jesus are elected.

And your belief is not found in the Bible. Belief is a consequence or fruit of election. You have things convoluted. Election took place before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1:4,2 Thess. 2:13 and 2 Tim. 1:9 for confirmation of this fact.

because every man is given the opportunity to trust Christ

Even those who have never heard of the Gospel of Christ? It has been said before that God isn't an equal-opportunity Savior. Your beliefs are not biblical.

of his own free will.

Here you go again with that myth. There is nothing "free" about a one-directional will. Scripture constantly speaks of the enslaved will, but those passages seem to fly right pass your consciousness.

In Reformation times you would have been in league with the Roman Catholics such as Erasmus who extolled free will. But there is a work by Luther you need to read sometime called "The Bondage Of The Will" where he refutes Erasmus. Luther is quite scriptural in his work.

And not all that are drawn are chosen.

That is so silly. Anyone drawn is by the very definition - chosen. Being drawn is always to completion -- saving union with Christ.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

The above has nothing to do with drawing.

 

[Winman]

Everything God does is right and no one should challenge Him. But you dare to. The Lord does indeed elect some, i.e. has compassion on them and hardens others.That's the God of the Bible -- the only God. You don't like that based on sentimental reasons. But you are dead wrong. You need to submit to the Word of God.

True, everything God does is right, but that does not mean God can do anything he wants. God cannot lie for instance.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The Bible says God is no respecter of persons. He does not show any person favor over another. But if Calvinism is true, then God is showing favor or grace to those he shows mercy over those whom he chooses to show wrath.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

And your belief is not found in the Bible. Belief is a consequence or fruit of election. You have things convoluted. Election took place before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1:4,2 Thess. 2:13 and 2 Tim. 1:9 for confirmation of this fact.

No, those who respond and answer the gospel call are elected. Read the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22. God called many men to the wedding who refused or made excuse not to come. Only those who obeyed God and came to the wedding where "chosen". The one exception was the man who came without a wedding garment. This was a man who had not received Christ and did not have the robe of Christ's righteouness on him. He was cast out. But the ones who did obey God and came to the wedding with the wedding garment were the chosen.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

That is so silly. Anyone drawn is by the very definition - chosen. Being drawn is always to completion -- saving union with Christ.

Again, you err. The verse I just showed you says many are called but only few chosen. Ever go fishing? You can catch a fish and draw it in, but the fish can fight and resist and get away.

Here you go again with that myth. There is nothing "free" about a one-directional will. Scripture constantly speaks of the enslaved will, but those passages seem to fly right pass your consciousness.

Your ignorance of scripture is astounding. God himself says men have their own voluntary will. Voluntary by definition means free, of one's own volition.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

You believe that no one can resist God's will, but Jesus himself shows they can.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus shows here that only those who do the will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. If man cannot resist God's will, then all would be saved.

The above has nothing to do with drawing.

Obviously it is not given to you to understand this parable.

 

[Rippon]

True, everything God does is right, but that does not mean God can do anything he wants.

God can do anything He wants. Everything He does is perfect.

The Bible says God is no respecter of persons. He does not show any person favor over another.

If He grants some mercy -- He is displaying His favor. When He chooses some -- He passes by others. Exhibiting His grace to those He so desires is indeed showing favor. Election means the choosing of some and the non-election of others.

But if Calvinism is true, then God is showing favor or grace to those he shows mercy over those whom he chooses to show wrath.

Bingo.That's right. You are beginning to understand.

No, those who respond and answer the gospel call are elected.

Scripture refutes your assertions. I gave you Ephesians 1;4; 2 Thess. 2:13 and 2 Tim. 1:9. But you don't agree with those Bible passages. You are on dangerous ground. Election is in eternity past -- not in time while we are living. You are making things up.

Ever go fishing? You can catch a fish and draw it in, but the fish can fight and resist and get away.

Your avoidance of the import of the Word of God is problematic. It's actually quite fishy. Why the fish story? That has absolutely nothing to do with any verses dealing with biblical drawing. As I said before -- the drawing in Scripture is always toward completion -- saving union with Christ. It is no mere tug or pull that can be shrugged off.

God himself says men have their own voluntary will. Voluntary by definition means free, of one's own volition.

So you do not believe in total depravity. You don't believe that unregenerate folks are hostile toward God. You don't believe that everything they do is wicked in God's sight. Mr. Erasmus -- go check out Luther's Bondage of The Will and get back to me afterwards.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

That phrase is unique to the KJV. But it still doesn't prove the myth of free-will. You're grasping at straws.

 

[Winman]

And your belief is not found in the Bible. Belief is a consequence or fruit of election. You have things convoluted. Election took place before the foundation of the world. See Ephesians 1:4,2 Thess. 2:13 and 2 Tim. 1:9 for confirmation of this fact.

You are correct. God chose or elected those whom he would save before the foundation of the world. But what you fail to understand is that God chose those who would believe of their own free will to trust in Christ.

We see this everyday. When I was young and dating my wife, we were coming home from the beach. We were both in our bathing suits. We were listening to the radio and there was to be a Rolling Stones concert in the Gator Bowl that evening (Jacksonville, Fla.). The DJ said that he had fifty tickets for the concert and would give two to any girl who showed up at his station in a bikini free. Now, we were a little back-slidden in those days and my wife urged me to drive to the station. But I didn't want to go because the station was across town and nearly forty miles away. I did not want to make the long drive, plus I really did not think we could get there in time as I believed many people would respond and get there well ahead of us. So we did not go. About an hour later the DJ said he still had ten tickets left and my wife was a little upset with me.

Now, see if you can follow this. This DJ had already elected or chosen who he would give these free concert tickets to. They would go to girls who showed up at his station in a bikini. And if you did show up, then you were the elect.

Another example, our Presidential election. By law, we have already pre-determined who will win an election. To be the President-Elect, you have to win the Electoral College in the election. If you do win the Electoral College, then you are deemed the President-Elect.

It is you that gets it backward. We didn't choose Obama to be President and then vote for him. No we voted for him first and then because he fulfilled the condition of winning the Electoral College he became the President-Elect.

 

[Winman]

First, I prefer the scriptures over Luther.

Second, God cannot just do anything he wants. God is HOLY. God cannot sin. God cannot tell a lie. God never tempts any person to sin. God cannot steal.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

God does not have one set of rules for himself, and and another set of rules for us. To lie is a sin, and this is why the scriptures say God cannot lie.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God cannot do evil. And God never tempts man to do evil.

Unbelief is a sin. If God controls the will of men, then God allows men to remain in a state of unbelief and perish. This makes God responsible for their death.

Let's say you are a trained, certified life guard with much experience in saving drowning people. You are by the pool and someone who cannot swim falls in. They are thrashing around, obviously drowning. But you just sit there and watch them drown without assisting them.

Would you be accountable? Of course you would.

But this is your concept of God. He can will that any man believe, but simply lets some men perish because he can.

But the scriptures say that God is not willing that any should perish. The scriptures also say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

You need to quit listening to men, and listen to the scriptures.

 

[Carico]

You are correct. God chose or elected those whom he would save before the foundation of the world. But what you fail to understand is that God chose those who would believe of their own free will to trust in Christ.

:laugh: Boy, God sure lucks out every time a person he chose freely acted to believe. :laugh: You sure want man to boast.

Sorry, but faith is a [U]gift [/U]from God so that no one can boast as Ephesians 2:8-9 explains. And MT. 11:25-27 tells us clearly that God chooses to whom he wants to reveal himself. He hides his truth from the wise and learned and reveals it to little children.

But Arminians simply don't want to believe the bible so it's a waste of time to quote it to them.

 

[Rippon]

You are correct. God chose or elected those whom he would save before the foundation of the world.

Good, you're making some progress. You now acknowledge that no one is elected in time.

But what you fail to understand is that God chose those who would believe of their own free will to trust in Christ.

Emphatically not. You are importing your own philosophy into this. Do you believe the Scripture:"The Gentiles were delighted when they heard this and glorfied the word of the Lord. All who were destined for eternal life came to believe." (Acts 13:48 NAB)

Destined --appointed, ordained to believe. Then believed because they were appointed to do so. You have to submit to the order of Scripture. Belief is a consequence of the fact that they were ordained for this very purpose.

There is no free-will teaching supported by the Word of God.

______________________________________

Your backsliden example was totally off the mark and inappropriate.
_____________________________________

When you compare the earthbound American Democratic political system to biblical election you are way off-base. Yield to the authority of God's Word.

 

[Winman]

Acts 18:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Destined --appointed, ordained to believe. Then believed because they were appointed to do so.

That is not what it says. It does not say they were ordained to believe. It says they were ordained to eternal life.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You have to believe before God gives you the power to become the sons of God.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:11 shows Irresistable Grace error. It says he came unto "his own" and they received him not. How do you explain that? If Jesus owned them, how could they resist him?

And verse 12 shows you must first receive or believe on Jesus, and then God gives you the power (Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God.

It has been ordained that those who believe shall receive eternal life.

 

[Rippon]

First, I prefer the scriptures over Luther.

The Holy Word of God is front-and-center. You would benefit from reading Luther's work because he uses the Scripture to explain truths which you need to understand.

Second, God cannot just do anything he wants.

Of course He can. Everything He does is right, perfect and holy.He can't do anything against His nature.

Don't confuse God with yourself.

God allows men to remain in a state of unbelief and perish.

Yes, He allows certain people to remain in their unbelief and consequently perish. And some He doesn't even allow to hear the Gospel.

He can will that any man believe, but simply lets some men perish because he can.

He wills that certain folks believe. To the rest He gives them over to themselves.

The Lord has the perfect right to do whatsoever He so desires. I trust Him. No one deserves to be saved. All of us deserve condemnation. He has the royal prerogative to do what He wants with His own creatures.

But the scriptures say that God is not willing that any should perish.

"But is longsuffering to us-ward" i.e. the elect. The epistles of Peter are addressed to the elect.


The scriptures also say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.



1 Tim 2:
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[/quote]

Without regard to national distinctions. He saves people from around the world -- from among every nation,tribe and language.

listen to the scriptures.

It's my fervent hope that you do.

 

[Winman]

Martin Luther worshipped Mary

"She, the Lady above heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility! It would surely have been more just to have arranged for her a golden coach, pulled by 4,000 horses, and to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded: 'Here passes the woman who is raised FAR ABOVE all women, indeed above the WHOLE human race.'"

Martin Luther believed communion saved.

"Second: What blessing do we receive through this eating and drinking? That is shown us by these words, 'Given and poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins.' Through these words we receive forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation in this sacrament. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation."

Luther believed baptism saves.

Baptism works forgiveness of sin, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare. What are these words and promises of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

Sorry, but I think I will skip on Luther. Are you sure you are a Baptist?

 

[Rippon]

Sorry, but I think I will skip on Luther. Are you sure you are a Baptist?

You're not much of a reader I take it.

Since I endorse Martin Luther's treatment of the nature of the unregenerate will -- in your mind that means I can't possibly be a Baptist?!

Martin Luther was a fallible Christian. But on the issue of soteriology you really need to read The Bondage Of The Will.

I am sure you and other Baptists of the Arminian flavor have read some works by Methodists, just as the more Calvinistic of us have read works of Presbyterians.

Martin Luther, even with all his faults, was more conservative and biblical than most Lutherans are today.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Allen,

This is a second attack..

your attack...

See RB, this is what I meant by 'undeniable ignorance.. that stems from a lack of understanding.

Frankly brother, you need to grow some thick skin. You look at my reponses to you saying that I believe arminianism and your non-cal views as human reasoning, but when you call my views and others "undeniable ignorance' yours is a reasoned response?

Pullleeeze. lol

 

[ReformedBaptist]

And Allan, I agree with you, they never address the scriptures we post to support our beliefs. I mean, if you think I am wrong in how I understand a passage of scripture, then show me where I am wrong. I am open to that.

But all I see is a total disregard for scripture.

I am waiting for you to address my OP.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Can you find me one place in scripture where it states mentions God condemning/judging men based upon their natural fallenness?

Here is my statement of faith:

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )

2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

And

Chapter 32: Of the Last Judgment
1._____ God hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
( Acts 17:31; John 5:22, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:3; Jude 6; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:10, 12; Matthew 25:32-46 )

Added in to give clarification:

Can you site where either my view on man's total inability or a reformed/calvinist view has ever taught that mankind is condemned based on their nature and not their deeds?

 

[Winman]

I am waiting for you to address my OP.

I answered you in post # 2

Maybe you are waiting to actually read it. But I answered right away.

 

[Allan]

Allen,
Frankly brother, you need to grow some thick skin.

I wasn't the one saying they couldn't continue due to civility issues with Non-cals. I was pointing out that the issues started with you.

You look at my reponses to you saying that I believe arminianism and your non-cal views as human reasoning, but when you call my views and others "undeniable ignorance' yours is a reasoned response?

No, it was more than that and you know it. It was your accusations of views not being biblical or set strictly upon what the Word of God says, when in fact they are and the scriptures were included.

A person is ignorant when they have little to no understanding of certain subjects. Stating one is ignorant is only a pejorative when that person does in fact understand the subject matter being discussed, and the person they are dealing with knows this, but use it to slander the person.

With regard to my statement of 'undeniable ignorance' toward you, you previously thought was an attact, I explained, and you thanked me for explaining and understood what I was meaning. Now you are going back and saying you still think it was an attack. Make up your mind!

 

[Allan]

Here is my statement of faith:

And

Added in to give clarification:

Can you site where either my view on man's total inability or a reformed/calvinist view has ever taught that mankind is condemned based on their nature and not their deeds?

Then you concede the fact that God does not hold men resposible if they are unable.