Demonic spirits

[Carico]

I have a question for Arminians.

Revelation 16:14, "They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of the Almighty."

So, do you think that man can resist those demons and alter prophesy by his own free will? You think that man is strong enough to resist God by his own free will, so you must think that man can overcome demons by his own free will as well.

If so, then why is Jesus necessary if man is powerful enough to resist God, Satan and demons by his own free will? Or do you think that Satan and demons are the Almighty, not God? Or perhaps you think that man is Almighty?Thank you.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Is this a discussion about free will or demons?

 

[Carico]

Is this a discussion about free will or demons?

I'm just curious how Arminians deal with God's and Satan's power. So I'd like to hear their explanations since they think that man can overcome everything by his own free will.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm just curious how Arminians deal with God's and Satan's power. So I'd like to hear their explanations since they think that man can overcome everything by his own free will.

Then you misunderstand their contention. They believe our will is tainted by sin. But that God is a gentleman and does not force himself on our free will even faulted. They do not hold that man overcomes everything by his own free will nor do they hold that Satan has power other than that what is allowed to him.

 

[Carico]

Then you misunderstand their contention. They believe our will is tainted by sin. But that God is a gentleman and does not force himself on our free will even faulted. They do not hold that man overcomes everything by his own free will nor do they hold that Satan has power other than that what is allowed to him.

So you don't believe that God hardens hearts. Is that correct? If so, then maybe we should strike that verse out of the bible as well. :smilewinkgrin:

Why can't man resist Satan if he can resist God? Do you think that Satan is more powerful than God? Obviously so. Or do you think that spirits, including the Holy Spirit are itty bitty entities that man can control at will? If so, then why do you even need God? What does God do for you that you can't do for yourself?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So you don't believe that God hardens hearts. Is that correct? If so, then maybe we should strike that verse out of the bible as well. :smilewinkgrin:

Why can't man resist Satan if he can resist God? Do you think that Satan is more powerful than God? Obviously so. Or do you think that spirits, including the Holy Spirit are itty bitty entities that man can control at will? If so, then why do you even need God?

You're making this personal. I'm not armeniest but know their position. lets take this a step at a time.

So you don't believe that God hardens hearts

both I and armeniest believe that God hardens hearts in the sence that the same grace given to bring men to him will have two effects. On the heart that is receptive to God it will soften his heart. ON the heart that is in rebellion it will harden. God desires that all men be saved but the men decide how they will respond to God's invitation.

Why can't man resist Satan if he can resist God

I'm not sure what you mean. However, Man has a sin nature that is predisposed to sin. So like walking down hill its easier to fall than to move upward. In short man likes not resisting satan because its easier.

Do you think that Satan is more powerful than God

how does that follow?

do you think that spirits, including the Holy Spirit are itty bitty entities that man can control at will

No they do their things but are limited by God. And we do our things and are limited by God.

so, then why do you even need God

because I'm a sinner and need grace.

 

[Carico]

both I and armeniest believe that God hardens hearts in the sence that the same grace given to bring men to him will have two effects. On the heart that is receptive to God it will soften his heart. ON the heart that is in rebellion it will harden. God desires that all men be saved but the men decide how they will respond to God's invitation.

And when did he "choose" people? Before the creation of the world as Romans 9:11, Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4 says. So it has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with man's works as Romans 9:11-18 says, but GOD'S SOVEREIGN CHOICE. That why the Book of Life written Before the creation of the world. And Romans 11:29 tells us that "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." Irrevocable, which ,means they cannot be resisted or changed.

But prideful humans don't like having a higher power over them. They want to say, "Nobody tells me what to do. I get to decide what happens in my life." That's rebellious pride that comes from Satan, not wisdom from the Spirit.

 

[Johnv]

Slightly off-topic, but there's a common misconception that prophesying is fortune-telling. That's incorrect. A person who prophesies is simply giving a divinely inspired utterance or revelation. That's doesn't necessarily mean that it's a telling of future events.

 

[Carico]

Slightly off-topic, but there's a common misconception that prophesying is fortune-telling. That's incorrect. A person who prophesies is simply giving a divinely inspired utterance or revelation. That's doesn't necessarily mean that it's a telling of future events.

Good post. Prophets are not seers or psychics. They only speak what God tells them to speak whether it has to do with the past, present or future. Without the Holy Spirit, they can no more predict the future than a weatherman can. :laugh: (joke).

Unfortunately, I've been told by many people that prophecy is my gift. And unfortunately, I think they're right. I would never choose this gift if I had the choice any more than Jeremiah wanted it because prophets are hated, ridiculed, beaten and sometimes killed for speaking the word of God, especially to believers. In fact, in Jeremiah 20:14 he said he would rather have not been born than to do what God called him to do. And same with me. So it's not a choice, but God's sovereign choice before we were born and God's gifts and his call are irrevocable, unfortunately. But that's what God chose and created for me to do before I was even born. So there's nothing I can do about it. The Spirit in me is strong, but the flesh is very weak.

So Jeremiah knew we don't have free will as much as I know that. Jeremiah 10:23, "I know, O Lord that a man's life is not his own. It's is not for a man to direct his steps."

That verse is confirmed all throughout the bible. But non-Calvinists don't believe that verse either.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And when did he "choose" people? Before the creation of the world as Romans 9:11, Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4 says. So it has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with man's works as Romans 9:11-18 says, but GOD'S SOVEREIGN CHOICE. That why the Book of Life written Before the creation of the world. And Romans 11:29 tells us that "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." Irrevocable, which ,means they cannot be resisted or changed.

But prideful humans don't like having a higher power over them. They want to say, "Nobody tells me what to do. I get to decide what happens in my life." That's rebellious pride that comes from Satan, not wisdom from the Spirit.

Based on what? Foreknowledge? Does he already know the hearts of men? Or not? No one is claiming that God is greater than men and that Gods will occurs despite mens free will but that doesn't mean mens will is any less free. Your last does not follow.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Good post. Prophets are not seers or psychics. They only speak what God tells them to speak whether it has to do with the past, present or future. Without the Holy Spirit, they can no more predict the future than a weatherman can. :laugh: (joke).

Unfortunately, I've been told by many people that prophecy is my gift. And unfortunately, I think they're right. I would never choose this gift if I had the choice any more than Jeremiah wanted it because prophets are hated, ridiculed, beaten and sometimes killed for speaking the word of God, especially to believers. In fact, in Jeremiah 20:14 he said he would rather have not been born than to do what God called him to do. And same with me. So it's not a choice, but God's sovereign choice before we were born and God's gifts and his call are irrevocable, unfortunately. But that's what God chose and created for me to do before I was even born. So there's nothing I can do about it. The Spirit in me is strong, but the flesh is very weak.

So Jeremiah knew we don't have free will as much as I know that. Jeremiah 10:23, "I know, O Lord that a man's life is not his own. It's is not for a man to direct his steps."

That verse is confirmed all throughout the bible. But non-Calvinists don't believe that verse either.

Jeremiah 10:23 needs to be in context:

I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
24 Correct me, LORD, but only with justice—
not in your anger,
lest you reduce me to nothing.

He's asking God to correct him because men should not direct their own steps but be obedient to God.. This is the quote in context of the passage. But I Calvinist have to grasp at straws!!! Tell me If God controls all things and double predestines us (those who go to heaven and those who go to hell) is he then not ultimately responsible for those who go to hell? Also if God is soverign over his angels can he be blamed for giving Satan the idea to rebel? Then is not God then as equally guilty for evil as anyone else in the Calvinistic perspective?

 

[Carico]

Jeremiah 10:23 needs to be in context: He's asking God to correct him because men should not direct their own steps but be obedient to God.. This is the quote in context of the passage. But I Calvinist have to grasp at straws!!! Tell me If God controls all things and double predestines us (those who go to heaven and those who go to hell) is he then not ultimately responsible for those who go to hell? Also if God is soverign over his angels can he be blamed for giving Satan the idea to rebel? Then is not God then as equally guilty for evil as anyone else in the Calvinistic perspective?

And why do you think men are disobedient? Because they know the one true God and know they're going to hell if they don't? No. Because Satan deceives them into believing they are doing the right thing by their actions.

So read Malachai to see that the Jews were completely stunned by God's anger with them as they still are today. In fact, they are still deceived today that they know God. That's because God has allowed Satan to blind their eyes to the Messiahs until the "full number of the Gentiles" comes in as Romans 11 explains.

Proverbs 16;9, "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."

Lamentations 3:37, "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?" NNE.

So yes, as Romans 9:21-25 says, the Lord is who determines who enters his kingdom of heaven and who does not. So read the parable of the worker in MT. 20 to see that the employer, not the employees determines how he runs his business. that was Christ's whole point in that passage.

But again, since no man knows God's plan for him, then each man is responsible for what's in his heart. That reconciles the whole bible together. Non-Calvinists, however, make man sovereign, not God which is a lie. Non-Calvinists don't know the power of Satan any more than they know the power of God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And why do you think men are disobedient? Because they know the one true God and know they're going to hell if they don't? No. Because Satan deceives them into believing they are doing the right thing by their actions.

So read Malachai to see that the Jews were completely stunned by God's anger with them as they still are today. In fact, they are still deceived today that they know God. That's because God has allowed Satan to blind their eyes to the Messiahs until the "full number of the Gentiles" comes in as Romans 11 explains.

Proverbs 16;9, "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."

Lamentations 3:37, "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?" NNE.

So yes, as Romans 9:21-25 says, the Lord is who determines who enters his kingdom of heaven and who does not. So read the parable of the worker in MT. 20 to see that the employer, not the employees determines how he runs his business. that was Christ's whole point in that passage.

But again, since no man knows God's plan for him, then each man is responsible for what's in his heart. That reconciles the whole bible together. Non-Calvinists, however, make man sovereign, not God which is a lie.

You're piece mealing the bible together. Not a good Idea. Mean are disobedient because they have the free will to be disobedient. Disobedient would not be possible if free will were absent. Your quote from Lamentations is in direct relation to Creation. God said "let there be and it was so" Who else can do that? That has nothing to do with double predestination. Mt 20 and the parable's point was not about who determines how a business is run but what a fair wage is. We all gain salvation no matter when in our lives we come to it. Some earlier some later but all receive the reward. Non-Calvinist do not make man sovreign to God but place man in a relationship with God where God is just. Calvinism doesn't alot for the justice of God.

 

[Carico]

Based on what? Foreknowledge? Does he already know the hearts of men? Or not? No one is claiming that God is greater than men and that Gods will occurs despite mens free will but that doesn't mean mens will is any less free. Your last does not follow.

He determines the hearts of men as he's told us in the quotes I've provided. He hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. Romans 9:22-25 and 11:32 explain why.

Secondly, Ezekiel 30:10-26 is just one of the myriad of examples that God gives us to tell us how it's HE who is doing everything.

Verse 22; "[U]I will [/U]break both his arms, the good arm as well as the broken one, and make the sword fall from his hand. [U]I will [/U]disperse Egypt among the nations and scatter them through the countries. I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon and put my sword in his hand... Then they will know that I am the Lord when I put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon and he brandishes it against Egypt."

So how can the king of Babylon act freely? He cannot because God is showing His power through what he does to the hearts and minds of men. The bible is God's revelation of HIMSELF to the world.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

He determines the hearts of men as he's told us in the quotes I've provided. He hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. Romans 9:22-25 and 11:32 explain why.

Secondly, Ezekiel 30:10-26 is just one of the myriad of examples that God gives us to tell us how it's HE who is doing everything.

Verse 22; "[U]I will [/U]break both his arms, the good arm as well as the broken one, and make the sword fall from his hand. [U]I will [/U]disperse Egypt among the nations and scatter them through the countries. I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon and put my sword in his hand... Then they will know that I am the Lord when I put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon and he brandishes it against Egypt."

So how can the king of Babylon act freely? He cannot because God is showing His power through what he does to the hearts and minds of men. The bible is God's revelation of HIMSELF to the world.

You are piece mealing the bible again. No one denies that God does these things. He uses men and their choices and still accomplishes his will that shows more soveriegnty than even Calvin imagined.

 

[Carico]

So the next question becomes; how does God make people do His will? The answer is through spirits and demons as the OP explains or through the Holy Spirit in His chosen.

 

[Carico]

You are piece mealing the bible again. No one denies that God does these things. He uses men and their choices and still accomplishes his will that shows more soveriegnty than even Calvin imagined.

So again, what choice did the king of Babylon have? If God said "I will put my sword in his hand", then you are claiming that the king of Babylon had the power to alter God's plans or you are claiming that it was not the hand of God that was doing it. But God said that He was doing it so they will know that I am the Lord. Unfortunately, since you deny that God's power is doing these things as He says it is, then you yourself don't know that He is the Lord.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So again, what choice did the king of Babylon have? If God said "I will put my sword in his hand", then you are claiming that the king of Babylon had the power to alter God's plans or you are claiming that it was not the hand of God that was doing it. But God said that He was doing it so they will know that I am the Lord. Unfortunately, since you deny that God's power is doing these things as He says it is, then you yourself don't know that He is the Lord.

No, I haven't said that at all. I've said that the king of Babylon had made that Choice of his own accord all along. God used him to bring about judgement. God didn't "force" the king to make that choice. And by just being l himself making his choice freely he accomplished Gods will.

 

[Carico]

No, I haven't said that at all. I've said that the king of Babylon had made that Choice of his own accord all along. God used him to bring about judgement. God didn't "force" the king to make that choice. And by just being l himself making his choice freely he accomplished Gods will.

That's not what those passages said. God said "I will put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon..." So you didn't answer the question. Again, how did God put His sword into the King of Babylon's hand?

Or do you think that God was wrong and it wasn't His sword and he just lucked out that the king of Babylon "freely chose" to go against Israel? Then no one will know that God is the Lord because he has no power over the earth. But the king of Babylon sure did!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That's not what those passages said. God said "I will put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon..." So you didn't answer the question. Again, how did God put His sword into the King of Babylon's hand?

Or do you think that God was wrong and it wasn't His sword and he just lucked out that the king of Babylon "freely chose" to go against Israel? Then no one will know that God is the Lord because he has no power over the earth. But the king of Babylon sure did!

He allowed victory by the king. He allowed the military campaign. The king could have lost certain battles on his way to Israel but God didn't permit it. And luck has nothing to do with it. I think you see God on a linear level. God is outside time and space. The end has already occured to him. The begining is just starting. step outside of time. Just like God establishes the universal laws that govern nature so he does our history. But we act according to our nature and our free will with in the context of God and his established plan.