God's election

[Havensdad]

Man's will is not free; He is ruled either by the sinful nature or the Holy Spirit as romans 8:8-9 explains. 2 Peter 2"19, "for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him."

Man's WILL is perfectly free. The bondage is a moral bondage, not a physical bondage. We are enslaved by our own desires; prevented by nothing but our own wicked choices.

We are all in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves which is precisely why we need a savior.

No one chooses;

1) to be born
2) His genes
3) The family in which he is born
4) The times in which he is born
5) the prevailing beliefs during the time he lives
6) the number of his days
7) Whether his name was written in the Book of Life before the creation of the world
8) His personality traits
9) His physical strengths and weaknesses
10 When he will die
11) His place in heaven
12)His calling
13) What he was taught by his family and those around him

And yet, He chooses whether or not to respond to Christ. We are commanded to "choose life".

Our will is indeed free. Just not in a "libertarian" sense.

We are thus instruments that God uses for His purposes; clay in the hands of the potter. Instruments have zero power over their masters and can only do what their masters make them do.

Your extreme view of God's Sovereignty, makes god the author of sin. The scriptures deny this.

But this is solid food, not milk. Only after studying the bible incessantly and studying human nature can one have the knowledge to talk about this.

Not sure what you are implying here. Many of the people on here (from both sides) are very well studied on God's word. Their are quite a few PhD.'s on here, I believe.

As far as myself, I am working on my second Master's degree in Religion/Theology. I am not claiming to be a mister smarty pants, or anything, but I think I can understand the tension between God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will.

You have a rather arrogant attitude. Might want to work on that: God "resists the proud" after all.

 

[JMSR]

We are thus instruments that God uses for His purposes; clay in the hands of the potter. Instruments have zero power over their masters and can only do what their masters make them do.

This statement confuses me. Christians do sin. Are you saying God made them sin, or that God is not their master?

 

[Carico]

Man's WILL is perfectly free. The bondage is a moral bondage, not a physical bondage. We are enslaved by our own desires; prevented by nothing but our own wicked choices.



And yet, He chooses whether or not to respond to Christ. We are commanded to "choose life".

Our will is indeed free. Just not in a "libertarian" sense.




Your extreme view of God's Sovereignty, makes god the author of sin. The scriptures deny this.



Not sure what you are implying here. Many of the people on here (from both sides) are very well studied on God's word. Their are quite a few PhD.'s on here, I believe.

As far as myself, I am working on my second Master's degree in Religion/Theology. I am not claiming to be a mister smarty pants, or anything, but I think I can understand the tension between God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will.

You have a rather arrogant attitude. Might want to work on that: God "resists the proud" after all.

Again, what makes us "choose" Christ?

1) our sinful nature
2) the devil
3) the Holy Spirit.

If you don't know that it's the Holy Spirit that gives us faith, then I'm afraid you're still on milk. Paul told believers they were on milk and they listened, they weren't offended because they were interested in learning, not competing with others to see "who's the smartest".

That's because people on solid food know that God's word doesn't come from the mind of man or human intelligence but from God Himself. They also know that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. So they don't give humans the credit for their knowledge because they know that it comes from God. They also know that God determined to whom he would impart that knowledge before we were even born. So none of us can take credit for it or have any reason to boast.

So people who know that don't compete with other Christians because they know that "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood." So there are no power struggles between people who are on solid food or statements like; "You think you're so smart." Those come from people who don't know that faith and knowledge are gifts from God so they see our struggle as against flesh and blood.

But from what I've seen online, few people know the above. that's why many forums consist of nothing but; "na-na-na-na." So I have no interest whatsoever in conversing with people who respond with, "na-na-na-na" and want nothing more than to compete with others and tear them down. I'm here simply to discuss scripture.

 

[webdog]

Good heavens! We can't have anyone on solid food here. Then some people might be jealous. So we all have to be on milk so some people won't be jealous of the faith of others. I know it would make you happy Amy, if I had less faith. but of course, that isn't love at all.

So since the only responses you make to my posts are personal attacks, they're not worth responding to any more.

...and the nerve of you to accuse me of pride :BangHead:

 

[Carico]

...and the nerve of you to accuse me of pride :BangHead:

Sorry webdog, but because I know that whatever knowledge or faith I have come from God, not myself, then I cannot take pride in them.

But as I pointed out, those who give humans the credit for the gifts that God gave them will have pride and thus claim that other Christians who have gifts are proud as well. They are under the false notion that righteousness and faith come from human nature instead of God alone. So they will be self-righteous and proud.

So you are incorrect; I cannot take credit for what God gave me nor will I. But I will not apologize for them or be ashamed of them either. We should be thankful for the gifts that God gave each of us, not tear them down or compete with them.

 

[webdog]

Sorry webdog, but because I know that whatever knowledge or faith I have come from God, not myself, then I cannot take pride in them.

But as I pointed out, those who give humans the credit for the gifts that God gave them will have pride and thus claim that other Christians who have gifts are proud as well. They are under the false notion that righteousness and faith come from human nature instead of God alone. So they will be self-righteous and proud.

So you are incorrect; I cannot take credit for what God gave me nor will I. But I will not apologize for them or be ashamed of them either. We should be thankful for the gifts that God gave each of us, not tear them down or compete with them.

The above post sounds familiar. Oh yeah, now I know...

The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. Luke 18:11

 

[Carico]

The above post sounds familiar. Oh yeah, now I know...

The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. Luke 18:11

Sorry, webdog, but I'm the tax collector because, unlike you, I know that I didn't choose to have faith, be good, nor am I righteous enough to have faith without the Holy Spirit. So your analogy only applies to those who claim that faith and righteousness comes from the self as the Pharisees did and you also do.

So I'm not interested in playing verbal volleyball with you, Webdog. I'm here to discuss scripture. If you want to play "na-na-na-na", then play it with someone else.

 

[webdog]

Sorry, webdog, but I'm the tax collector because, unlike you, I know that I didn't choose to have faith, be good, nor am I righteous enough to have faith without the Holy Spirit. So your analogy only applies to those who claim that faith and righteousness comes from the self as the Pharisees did and you also do.

So I'm not interested in playing verbal volleyball with you, Webdog. I'm here to discuss scripture. If you want to play "na-na-na-na", then play it with someone else.

With the constant lies, haughtiness and un-Christlikeness you exhibit, you would be hard pressed to believe it.

Still waiting for all of the apologies for outright lies...or is God making you not apologize, since you can do nothing? I have never claimed the above bolded garbage that keeps flowing from your keyboard, so quit claiming I do. Trolling is against the rules here at the BB.

 

[Winman]

Sorry webdog, but because I know that whatever knowledge or faith I have come from God, not myself, then I cannot take pride in them.

But as I pointed out, those who give humans the credit for the gifts that God gave them will have pride and thus claim that other Christians who have gifts are proud as well. They are under the false notion that righteousness and faith come from human nature instead of God alone. So they will be self-righteous and proud.

So you are incorrect; I cannot take credit for what God gave me nor will I. But I will not apologize for them or be ashamed of them either. We should be thankful for the gifts that God gave each of us, not tear them down or compete with them.

I do not take personal pride in my faith in Christ. Without the scriptures, I would have never known about Jesus to put my faith in him.

So this is a false accusation that Calvinist's accuse non-Cals of, that we go around bragging "I believed on Jesus Christ, so I am worthy to be saved!"

I can't speak for others, but this kind of thought has never entered my mind. On the contrary, I am very thankful and grateful to God that he showed me, a lost sinner, that he loved me and sent his own Son Jesus to die for me, and that if I put my trust in him I can have eternal life.

As I said, I can't speak for others, but I am willing to bet that not one non-Cal here is full of self-pride as you accuse us.

 

[Carico]

I do not take personal pride in my faith in Christ. Without the scriptures, I would have never known about Jesus to put my faith in him.

You have to, Winman if you claim that faith comes from yourself. You've got to give someone the credit for it and if you claim that it doesn't come from God, then you have to credit yourself with your faith.

But that's why Ephesians 2;8-9 said "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, not by works so that no one can boast." So conversely if you claim that faith comes from yourself, then you are boasting. it's that simple.

 

[webdog]

You have to, Winman if you claim that faith comes from yourself. You've got to give someone the credit for it and if you claim that it doesn't come from God, then you have to credit yourself with your faith.

But that's why Ephesians 2;8-9 said "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, not by works so that no one can boast." So conversely if you claim that faith comes from yourself, then you are boasting. it's that simple.

So, at Christmas when you receive a present, you make an announcement to your family giving yourself credit for receiving the gift? I can see it now "...I would say thank you for the gifts, but due to the act of receiving this gift, I declare that I get all of the credit for you going out and buying it, wrapping it and giving it to me...you need to thank me for doing all the work"
Faith is NEVER a work, whether it comes from God, ourselves or the moon. Scripture is crystal clear it is never a work. Your theology redefines words to fit the meanings it needs.

 

[Carico]

So, at Christmas when you receive a present, you make an announcement to your family giving yourself credit for receiving the gift? I can see it now "...I would say thank you for the gifts, but due to the act of receiving this gift, I declare that I get all of the credit for you going out and buying it, wrapping it and giving it to me...you need to thank me for doing all the work"
Faith is NEVER a work, whether it comes from God, ourselves or the moon. Scripture is crystal clear it is never a work. Your theology redefines words to fit the meanings it needs.

My "theology" is the exact opposite. Faith doesn't take any more work than opening one's eyes after he has been healed of blindness. And even opening one's eyes is involuntary. So unlike you, I don't take credit for my faith because i know that it's a gift from God so that no one can boast."

But since you're so busy arguing against God's claim that the earth is round, then I see why you misinterpret me as well. Unbelievable.

 

[Winman]

You have to, Winman if you claim that faith comes from yourself. You've got to give someone the credit for it and if you claim that it doesn't come from God, then you have to credit yourself with your faith.

But that's why Ephesians 2;8-9 said "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, not by works so that no one can boast." So conversely if you claim that faith comes from yourself, then you are boasting. it's that simple.

First of all, folks have been arguing over the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9 for centuries. Many believe the gift is speaking of grace, others believe it refers to faith, and others believe it refers to salvation which is the topic of the passage and which I agree with.

And Carico, I believe every ability I have was given to me of God. I did not create myself. Everything I can do, think, hear, see, touch, love, have faith, all are gifts to men. But I believe faith is a "common grace", that is, it is given to all men along with many other abilities.

And I believe man is responsible to God for what he believes. And it is clear men can believe in that which is false.

Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

Jesus did not say they couldn't believe he was the Christ, he said they will not believe. What you believe in is a choice.

Look Carico, if what you believe is true, no amount of debate on the forum will do one bit of good. Because according to you a man has no control or say whatsoever about what he believes. You believe that God causes a man to have faith in Christ, and the others cannot possibly believe.

So, why are we debating here? Truth is, you wouldn't be putting forth arguments to support your doctrine unless you believed there is a chance that someone would listen and believe. Now for me, I believe man is in control of what he believes, a man can listen to the evidence and decide for himself.

And this is what the scriptures show, that man can be persuaded and convinced to believe.

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

If Calvinism is true, these scriptures make no sense. According to you, God does not persuade men to believe, he regenerates them. And according to your belief, no amount of persuasion would work on a man who has not been regenerated to believe.

I think I have shown you a hundred verses that contradict Calvinism, but you cling to it.

 

[webdog]

My "theology" is the exact opposite. Faith doesn't take any more work than opening one's eyes after he has been healed of blindness. And even opening one's eyes is involuntary. So unlike you, I don't take credit for my faith because i know that it's a gift from God so that no one can boast."

But since you're so busy arguing against God's claim that the earth is round, then I see why you misinterpret me as well. Unbelievable.

I don't take credit for my faith. Do you know how silly that really is? Do you take credit for your legs, arms, lungs, sight and hearing? According to you, anything that comes from yourself you have to take credit for, right?

You have the verse where God declares the Earth is round? You have already been shown the one you think says it does not...is there another one in mind? Me thinks it's found in 1 Opinions.

I would like it if you would debate what is actually said on this forum. I think you are a troll, and you are here to just stir the pot. No other reason to post here if your fatalistic determinsim is true...

 

[Carico]

And Carico, I believe every ability I have was given to me of God. I did not create myself. Everything I can do, think, hear, see, touch, love, have faith, all are gifts to men. But I believe faith is a "common grace", that is, it is given to all men along with many other abilities.

You can believe whatever you want, just like Muslims believe in allah. But your beliefs have nothing whatsoever to do with what scripture says. the Book of Life was written before the creation of the world. God chose Israel through whom he would reveal himself and to no other nation.

Romans 9:6-9 explain that it is not the natural children of Abraham who are God's seed, but the children of the promise. Galatians 3:29 explains that "If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed."

Romans 8:29, "For those whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His son, that he might be firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified he also glorified."

And God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. So you better believe that God is going to complete the work that he planned before the creation of the world which includes, saving His chosen. So the bible makes it crystal clear, that God does the choosing, as Jesus says, God does the calling, God does the glorifying, God does the saving. The bible is about what God does for unrepentant sinners, not what people do for themselves. The latter is secular humanism.

 

[Winman]

More scripture that shows a man can be convinced or persuaded.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Acts 26:25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

What did king Agrippa mean by "almost thou persuadest me"? If your doctrine is correct, Agrippa has no choice in the matter. If God regenerates him he will believe, and if he is not regenerated he could not be persuaded. There is no "if" allowed in your doctrine, it is one or the other.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Again, there is no room for the word "if" in Calvinism. Either you believe or you don't, and a man cannot change this.

And why would Jesus even say such a thing? Jesus is God, he would know if this man could believe, in fact, according to you this man could not possibly believe unless God regenerated him.

What is truly amazing to me is how you simply ignore all this scripture that clearly contradicts your doctrine. It just goes in one ear and out the other, you don't even comment on it. If you think I am misrepresenting the scriptures, go over these very verses and show me where I am wrong.

 

[Carico]

More posts trying to give man the credit for what God does in him.

Sorry but again, Winman, boasting is not a fruit of the Spirit. It comes from the sinful nature and the sinful nature cannot understand God. So the sinful nature will lead you to an interpretation that contradicts other scripture.

So unless you put those verses together with; Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 4;4, 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 12"8-9 then you are misquoting God. And for what reason? So that man can boast.: "He who exalts himself will be humbled." indeed.

1 Corinthians 3;21, "So then, no more boasting about men!" You would be wise to believe that.

 

[Winman]

You can believe whatever you want, just like Muslims believe in allah. But your beliefs have nothing whatsoever to do with what scripture says. the Book of Life was written before the creation of the world. God chose Israel through whom he would reveal himself and to no other nation.

Romans 9:6-9 explain that it is not the natural children of Abraham who are God's seed, but the children of the promise. Galatians 3:29 explains that "If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed."

Romans 8:29, "For those whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His son, that he might be firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified he also glorified."

And God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. So you better believe that God is going to complete the work that he planned before the creation of the world which includes, saving His chosen. So the bible makes it crystal clear, that God does the choosing, as Jesus says, God does the calling, God does the glorifying, God does the saving. The bible is about what God does for unrepentant sinners, not what people do for themselves. The latter is secular humanism.

Carico, every man's name was in the book of life. You don't get your name added to the book, you get it blotted out.

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So there goes your false doctrine of Limited Atonement. God wants all to be saved. Everyone's name is in the book of life to begin with, but if you refuse to believe on Christ your name will be blotted out.

Man you are stubborn. You are getting beaten to a pulp by the word of God and still you hold to your false doctrine.

 

[Carico]

Carico, every man's name was in the book of life. You don't get your name added to the book, you get it blotted out.

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So there goes your false doctrine of Limited Atonement. God wants all to be saved. Everyone's name is in the book of life to begin with, but if you refuse to believe on Christ your name will be blotted out.

Man you are stubborn. You are getting beaten to a pulp by the word of God and still you hold to your false doctrine.

Wrong again. Boy, you sure like to make up your own bible.

Revelation 20:15, "If anyone's name was not found in the Book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." That means that not everyone's name is written in the Book of Life.

And I guarantee you, many people will be thrown into the lake of fire as Jesus tells us in MT. 7:13-14, and 21-23 because their names were not written in the Book of life which again was written before the creation of the world. So you have contradicted so much scripture and made up your own, then I'm not even sure it will be productive to quote scripture to you any more.

 

[Winman]

Wrong again. Boy, you sure like to make up your own bible.

Revelation 20:15, "If anyone's name was not found in the Book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

And I guarantee you, many people will be thrown into the lake of fire as Jesus tells us in MT. 7:13-14, and 21-23 because their names were not written in the Book of life which again was written before the creation of the world. So you have contradicted so much scripture and made up your own, then I'm not even sure it will be productive to quote scripture to you any more.

It does not say their names were not written, it says "found". And Revelations 3:5 shows why. Because they did not receive Jesus their names were blotted (or erased) out.

And what about those that God does blot out? Did they lose their salvation? Did God un-elect them?

I have asked you at least three or four times, and you have never answered, did Jesus die for the non-elect?

I am still waiting on your answer to this question I have asked several times.