God's election

[Carico]

It does not say their names were not written, it says "found". And Revelations 3:5 shows why. Because they did not receive Jesus their names were blotted (or erased) out.

And what about those that God does blot out? Did they lose their salvation? Did God un-elect them?

I have asked you at least three or four times, and you have never answered, did Jesus die for the non-elect?

I am still waiting on your answer to this question I have asked several times.

Now this is what's called quibbling about words which Paul tells us not to do. There is nowhere that the bible says that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life. Nowhere. So you are making up your own bible. And the word "found" is easy enough for a child to understand. That because God has hidden the truth from those who claim to be wise and have to quibble about words and has revealed the truth to little children who know that the word "found" in this context also means written.

I would be happy to answer your question about who Jesus died for. The bible does after all talk about God's elect.

But first you need to answer the repeated questions I have asked you. First and foremost, do you know why faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit? Or not?

 

[Winman]

So, at Christmas when you receive a present, you make an announcement to your family giving yourself credit for receiving the gift? I can see it now "...I would say thank you for the gifts, but due to the act of receiving this gift, I declare that I get all of the credit for you going out and buying it, wrapping it and giving it to me...you need to thank me for doing all the work"
Faith is NEVER a work, whether it comes from God, ourselves or the moon. Scripture is crystal clear it is never a work. Your theology redefines words to fit the meanings it needs.

Good example Webdog. And if we parachute out of a plane when we get down we brag, "the parachute did not get me to the ground safely, I got myself down safely"

And even in this case, it is not your faith that got you down safely. The parachute could malfunction and you would fall to your death. It is not our faith that gets us to the ground, it is the parachute. And our faith in Jesus does not save us, Jesus himself saves us.

You are correct, Calvinism alters and changes the definitions of biblical term and scripture. This is one reason they cannot understand the verses we show to refute their doctrine. They attach a completely different meaning to the words.

 

[Winman]

I asked you about Jesus dying for the un-elect weeks ago before you ever brought up this question.

Yes, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. But these verses are speaking of gifts to believers, not about faith for salvation. Let's look at the verses.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Tell me Carico, remove any mountains lately?

These are gifts to believers for the church.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Tell me Carico, have you healed anyone lately? performed any miracles? speak or interpret tongues?

These were special gifts given to the early church. We do not see these gifts after the 1st century or so, although the Pentacostals will say they continue today.

The faith spoken of here is not for salvation.

 

[Winman]

Hey Carico, it's getting dark where I am. But I have faith if I flip a switch to the On position that my room will be filled with light.

Wow. It worked.

It must have been my faith that made the lights come on. :laugh:

 

[Carico]

You've got it absolutely backwards. The parable of the sower explains that those who fell away are those who did not have saving faith because they had no root. The root is is Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:18, "You do not support the root, the root supports you."

So sorry but a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Secondly, God gives his gifts according to the measure that he has determined. that's why he left the thorn in Paul's flesh so that Paul would not become conceited. So sorry, but you can only do what God called you to do, nothing more, nothing less because you are not more powerful than he is, nor do you determine the measure of faith he has given you. So only those whom God wants to move mountains will he give them the faith to do so.

There are so many thing wrong with your post that it would take tomes to address them all. Suffice it to say, that since I, not you, know why the sinful nature cannot have faith in God, then I cannot boast. So if you want to contradict scripture so you can boast, then your boasting is a waste of time because it's not based on the truth. Boasting comes from the sin of pride which is from the devil.

 

[Winman]

I didn't know the parable of the sower was in Romans.

And when are you going to answer my question? Did Jesus die for the un-elect?

And Romans 12:3 says God has dealt the measure of faith to every man.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You are misrepresenting this verse. What is it talking about? It is talking about one man believeing he is more gifted than another. And Paul is telling those with greater gifts not to deem themselves better than those with lesser gifts.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

So, this is speaking of spiritual gifts (see 1 Cor 12:1).

It is like I have told you before, Jesus said to them that have, more will be given.

Matt 12:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

 

[Carico]

And i did not see your questions concerning the elect. But i am happy to answer them.

Scripture says that Jesus died for all, for many, and for few. Now that sounds like a contradiction to those who think that God contradicts himself, but it is not. Unlike non-Calvinists, we Calvinists reconcile the whole bible together instead of interpreting scripture to contradict itself. So when you reconcile them together you get;

Jesus died for all in the regard that no one but God knows who His elect are. So salvation is open to anyone who wants it.

Jesus died for many in regard to the fact that many will be saved.

And Jesus died for few in the regard that compared to the billions of people who reject Christ, only few will be saved.

That reconciles all scripture together which I know is something that doesn't appeal to you. So you might try reconciling scripture together for once so you wouldn't need to ask this question.

 

[Winman]

Yes, but what you said is not accurate.

Jesus died for all in the regard that no one but God knows who His elect are. So salvation is open to anyone who wants it.

Now on the face of this statement, I would agree with you 100%. But you believe only those who God regenerates will want or desire salvation. And those who have not been regenerated will never want or desire salvation.

Isn't that so?

 

[Carico]

Yes, but what you said is not accurate.



Now on the face of this statement, I would agree with you 100%. But you believe only those who God regenerates will want or desire salvation. And those who have not been regenerated will never want or desire salvation.

Isn't that so?

Again, as Jesus says, only those whom God is drawing can believe. If God were drawing everyone, then he wouldn't have needed to even say this. But Jesus said that when he was talking about Judas in John 6:63-65. In fact he starts that verse out by saying: "That's why I tell you that no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me enables him." He was explaining why Judas betrayed him; because no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." So his statement is crystal clear that God did not enable Judas.

 

[Winman]

Again, as Jesus says, only those whom God is drawing can believe. If God were drawing everyone, then he wouldn't have needed to even say this. But Jesus said that when he was talking about Judas in John 6:63-65. In fact he starts that verse out by saying: "That's why I tell you that no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me enables him." He was explaining why Judas betrayed him; because no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." So his statement is crystal clear that God did not enable Judas.

Man, this gets old. First Jesus said he would draw everyone.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

How many men does this say? All men.

So, if a man comes to Christ was he drawn? Of course.

But this verse does not say that every person drawn will be saved, in fact Jesus said many are called but few are chosen.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

How many are called? Many

How many are chosen? Few

So, it is obvious that not all that are called are chosen. And Jesus shows this in verse 2 and 3.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Were these people called and bid to the wedding? Yes.

Did they come? No.

So, you have had plenty of slack on this. It is about time you cut out this baloney. You know as well as I do that not all that are drawn and called will come.

Do you really believe people cannot see through this? Trust me, they do.

 

[Carico]

but few are chosen.

Chosen; by whom and why? There's a reason that Israel are called God's chosen people. "You did not choose me. I chose you." MT. 11:25-27 tells us that God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned. It also tells us; "No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." So God absolutely hides the truth from those he wants to hide it from as Romans 9:ll-27 also verifies.

I'll let you think about that and read the many verses that talk about God's elect. I have no more desire to post on this forum since there are nothing but quarrels.

 

[Winman]

Chosen; by whom and why? There's a reason that Israel are called God's chosen people. "You did not choose me. I chose you." MT. 11:25-27 tells us that God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned. It also tells us; "No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." So God absolutely hides the truth from those he wants to hide it from as Romans 9:ll-27 also verifies.

I'll let you think about that and read the many verses that talk about God's elect. I have no more desire to post on this forum since there are nothing but quarrels.

Carico, you are changing the subject. Matthew 22 verses 2 and 3 clearly state that God called and bid them to the wedding, but they would not come.

Now, did God choose them? No. Why? Because they did not come. But to those he called later did he choose them? No, not all. One man came and was cast out because he did not have on a wedding garment. But the ones who obeyed and came with a proper wedding garment on were chosen.

And you cannot see that they had to fulfill a condition to be the chosen or elect? Well, they did.

And this is what I have been trying to tell you, God can see down through all time and knows ahead of time who will answer his call in obedience and come to him.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus knows who will believe him and who will not beforehand. He knew Judas would betray him. Therefore Judas was not chosen. Note it said Jesus "knew", it does not say he caused them not to believe or caused Judas to betray him. No, it only mentions that he "knew".

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

This was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophesy. God knew Judas would betray Jesus and wrote of it hundreds of years earlier. If God caused Judas to betray Jesus he would be the author of sin.

You just don't get it. Those who God sees beforehand that will believe are the chosen, the elect. And the scriptures show this. It did not mention that Jesus "knew" who would believe not for no reason.

 

[AresMan]

Hey Carico, it's getting dark where I am. But I have faith if I flip a switch to the On position that my room will be filled with light.

Wow. It worked.

It must have been my faith that made the lights come on. :laugh:

Intuitive "faith" in the structure and mechanics of electrical circuitry is not the same as saving faith in the Gospel and in Who God is. Such "faith" through demonstrable observance is characteristic of humanity by nature. Faith in the unseen and truth of the Gospel is characteristic of one whom God has regenerated. It is not a characteristic of one's sin nature.

Besides, it is possible for you to have "faith" that the light will work, and yet it could unexpectedly short circuit, contrary to your "faithful" expectations. This incident would not be because your "faith" was misplaced, but because there would be a factor behind the scenes that interfered with your normal course of judgment.

 

[Winman]

Intuitive "faith" in the structure and mechanics of electrical circuitry is not the same as saving faith in the Gospel and in Who God is. Such "faith" through demonstrable observance is characteristic of humanity by nature. Faith in the unseen and truth of the Gospel is characteristic of one whom God has regenerated. It is not a characteristic of one's sin nature.

Besides, it is possible for you to have "faith" that the light will work, and yet it could unexpectedly short circuit, contrary to your "faithful" expectations. This incident would not be because your "faith" was misplaced, but because there would be a factor behind the scenes that interfered with your normal course of judgment.

There we go again, not one word of scripture, just Calvinist doctrine.

 

[webdog]

Intuitive "faith" in the structure and mechanics of electrical circuitry is not the same as saving faith in the Gospel and in Who God is. Such "faith" through demonstrable observance is characteristic of humanity by nature. Faith in the unseen and truth of the Gospel is characteristic of one whom God has regenerated. It is not a characteristic of one's sin nature.

Besides, it is possible for you to have "faith" that the light will work, and yet it could unexpectedly short circuit, contrary to your "faithful" expectations. This incident would not be because your "faith" was misplaced, but because there would be a factor behind the scenes that interfered with your normal course of judgment.

Burden of proof is on you that the faith that leads to salvation is a different kind of faith that we use every day in our lives. Scripture please (it hasn't been provided for hundreds of years, so it may be a while

 

[AresMan]

There we go again, not one word of scripture, just Calvinist doctrine.

... in reply to a statement that had not one word of scripture either. :flower:

 

[Winman]

... in reply to a statement that had not one word of scripture either. :flower:

Well, here is a verse for you that shows we are elect according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This shows that God knew beforehand who would believe, and it is those whom he has elected, the exact opposite of what Calvinism teaches.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[Revmitchell]

I realize that many people don't believe that God elects even though the bible makes it very clear that He does.

Who are these people? Are they on this board?

 

[Havensdad]

Well, here is a verse for you that shows we are elect according to God's foreknowledge.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This shows that God knew beforehand who would believe, and it is those whom he has elected, the exact opposite of what Calvinism teaches.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

"know" represents a relationship. Nowhere in this verse does it say that God elected based upon information known ABOUT the person. In fact, Paul refutes this:

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Not of anything foreseen about the children, were they called. They were called according to God's will.

John 6, in context, is referring to the beginning of his ministry, BTW, and Judas.

 

[Rippon]

Burden of proof is on you that the faith that leads to salvation is a different kind of faith that we use every day in our lives.

So in your estimation saving faith is just the run-of-the-mill "faith" that someone has? Someone has faith that a chair will support their weight is of the same stuff as saving faith? Your contention is not credible.