Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[Winman]

One of the best proofs that a man believes while still in a sinful state is circumcision. The scriptures say Abraham believed when yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The scriptures clearly show Abraham believed before he was circumcised. And that circumcision is a seal of the righteousness which he had already attained when yet in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Abraham is also the example of those who believe though they be not circumcised. That is what verse 11 says.

And the scriptures show that when a man believes, God himself circumcises their heart. This is being born again, receiving the Holy Spirit which is now our seal.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So, it is clear that we believe in uncircumcision just as Abraham did, and then we receive the circumcision of Christ which is the new heart and new birth.

 

[Allan]

Anyway Heavensdad, we should just agree to disagree as we both pretty much know each others arguments, stances, and views so I doubt this conversation will do much for either of us.

May the Lord bless you and keep you centered in His will to the fulfilling of His plan and purpose in your life :thumbs:

 

[Benefactor]

One of the best proofs that a man believes while still in a sinful state is circumcision. The scriptures say Abraham believed when yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The scriptures clearly show Abraham believed before he was circumcised. And that circumcision is a seal of the righteousness which he had already attained when yet in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Abraham is also the example of those who believe though they be not circumcised. That is what verse 11 says.

And the scriptures show that when a man believes, God himself circumcises their heart. This is being born again, receiving the Holy Spirit which is now our seal.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So, it is clear that we believe in uncircumcision just as Abraham did, and then we receive the circumcision of Christ which is the new heart and new birth.

It does not get any clearer than this. Great post

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by kyredneck

8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.

17.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Him.

..... why is Calvinist losing their salvation when they are bit by snakes and then being resaved again when or if they believe that if they look and actually do look and live? .....

?????? You lost me there Bud. Do you see Calvinists everywhere?

 

[webdog]

If the answer to that question lies in man, then man can answer that question.
If the answer to that question lies in God, then all that we can (or need) to go on is what God has revealed. We have no obligation to answer to another man on God's behalf.

I have yet to hear any reasonable answer for this question from any position of man as the ultimate arbiter of saving faith. Perhaps we need more advances in psychology or neuroscience to figure it out.

P.S. Here is my simple answer:

Why do some have saving faith? God.
Why do some not have saving faith? Themselves (man).

Let's play fair

The one that doesn't have faith...why doesn't he have faith, and how can he be held accountable and responsible for not having faith?

It's either all God or it isn't!

 

[Winman]

Why do some have saving faith? God.
Why do some not have saving faith? Themselves (man).

First of all, the term "saving faith" is found nowhere in scripture, not once. That is a man-made term.

Second, faith comes by hearing God's word as has been shown numerous times.

And why do men believe? Well, we know that those who do not believe have pleasure in unrighteousness, but those who seek after righteousness shall be filled.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Now, being a Calvinist you cannot possibly accept that some people do truth, but the scriptures say otherwise. And you aren't saved until after you come to the light which is Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate cannot possibly seek God, but the young rich man sought God. And he went away unsaved.

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

The Philipian jailer was not regenerated, but he sought God.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

No where in the scriptures does it teach an unsaved person cannot have a desire to seek God, in fact, it shows the contrary.

 

[Winman]

2 Chron 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

This verse says that if the Jews humble themselves, and pray, and seek God's face, and turn from their wicked ways, that then God will hear from heaven and forgive their sin.

So obviously they have to be in sin when they do the seeking. Their sin is not forgiven until after doing so.

 

[Havensdad]

Nice dance step but you missed the point. The reformed mainline position maintains that when one is regenerated then one is unified/IN Christ.
However one can not be unified with Christ if still in their sins. If still in their sins then forgiveness is necessary in order to be unified with Christ. If we are made 'new' (having no stain or taint) then we have no sin and therefore no need for forgivenss as we are already clean and as such, unified or In Christ.

LOL.. spoken like someone who misunderstands the argument in question. One CAN NOT be unified with Christ and still in their sins. Thusly one CAN NOT, according to scripture, be justified or sanctified (which deal with sin) without the excersizing of faith.

Really? So Adam already had a sin nature, when he was walking with God before the fall?

I would say that regeneration brings us to a pre-fall condition, making us as Adam in the garden. Adam, though without sin, was not yet truly perfected, because he was still capable of falling (which he did), and was not yet "sealed".

Those of us chosen by God, are regenerated (given the ability to choose Good), with the added benefit of conviction by the Holy Spirit, and knowledge of the price of our sin.

Wrong!
They were slaves when called to faith in Christ.
You can't get around that no matter how much you want to.
It maintains their status as 'still' in a state of slavery when called out.
It does not state they were set free first by the call, but that they were slaves when called. If your contention was correct it would state more like - they were slaves until called to faith in the Lord (or to that effect), thus denoting when their slavery ended and the calling which ended it. The passage however does not nor but is specific in that when God called them they were slaves.

Allan, excuse me. I am afraid, in my hurried attempt to post, I missed the fact that you completely ripped this out of context. Paul is referring to earthly slaves and masters: this has nothing to do with sin and salvation. Please read the whole chapter. "Called in the Lord as an earthly slave", is the correct context.

The next verse I gave supports my position.
"Act 26:18 To open their eyes, to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me

Notice their eyes are opened and 'yet' they are still in darkness and under the power of Satan. If they are 'in darkness' they are seperated from God because He is light. Their eyes are opened that they might turn FROM darkness TO light, from the power of Satan TO God. This contradicts the common Reformed position of Regeneration.

Again, you are misunderstanding. It is not "yet". It is giving three equally true comparisons, which are "at the same time". #1 To open their eyes; #2 To turn them from darkness to light #3 power of Satan to God.

Notice that their eyes are opened, they are free from darkness, and freed from the power of Satan unto God, SO THAT he may receive forgiveness of sins. He has been regenerated (freed from darkness, and Satan) yet HASN'T yet received forgiveness.

See here is what I am talking about and agree we are looking at it from two different perspectives:
You state in one place their eyes are opened (regeneration) 'to turn from darkness'.. and then just below that you state 'Once one is 'cleansed' from the old nature..

If one is cleansed from the old nature one 'no longer' is stained nor tained with sin - ie. they have no sin and are in union with Christ already. Scripture states old things are passed away, or better old things no longer exist.. behold all things have become new - without stain or taint. You can not be new and still in your tresspasses and sin. The issue here revolves around the fact that that you are still IN your sins and THAT is what makes us dead.

A new nature means one is not tainted or soiled by sin and therefore not bound by said sin to control them. They has been set free because sin has been removed making them 'new', or completely changed/renewed. This is why Paul states that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. He equates, in the life of the believer, that the sin with which we contend is not in the spirit anymore but in the flesh as the flesh has not been cleansed though our spirit has. As believers if we sin, our sin does not come from or stem from our spirit but out from our flesh or the desires thereof that we 'choose' to meet in an unrighteous way.


First, that is a postulation and is noted as such by your injection of opinion quite literally into the text itself. Nothing in scripture states that when their eyes are opened they are freed from the bondage of sin, which is the view of the reformed position. It is supposition imposed upon the text.

Actually the verse above states exactly that. They are freed from Satan, their eyes are opened, SO THAT they can receive forgiveness.

Secondly, I'm not sure if your view of regenation comports with the common view of the Reformed perspective. At least from the above your contension has me mystified a bit in relation to the commonly held perspective.

I do not care. I am aware my view might be a bit different than many. I have a rather moderate reformed position.

This view states that if one is regenerate one is no longer in darkness because one is in Christ therefore one can not turn from it since one is no longer in it. And as such if one is regenerate then one is no longer under the power of Satan but under the power of God and therefore there is not turning from it.

The person no longer in darkness, and who has been freed from the power of Satan, has not yet received forgiveness. These things happen so that "one might receive" forgiveness of sins.

Thus the above verse I was speaking of relating to opening their eyes 'while in darkness' in fact says the opposite of your postulation. Their eyes were opened so they might turn .. turn from their darkness and the power of Satan TO God. It does not state that their eyes opened and being freed from the power of Satan they came to God. NO. It states that they would 'turn FROM the power of Satan', meaning that is where they 'were at' TO God.

Actually, their eyes were opened, they were freed from the power of Satan, and turned from the darkness to the light "so that" they might receive forgiveness of sins. They must be returned to an Adamic state before they can receive forgiveness of sins. This state, along with the conviction of sins brought about by the Holy Spirit, and the knowledge of what Christ has done, assures our repentance.

Scripture says we are made righteous through faith, we are justified through faith, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is through faith, the propitation is applied to us through faith, and we are united with Christ through faith.

All of these are noted scripturally as various aspect of what regeneration IS. Therefore it is conceded as factaul that according to scripture faith precedes regeneration as it is by faith the regeneration/salvation transpires yet not with grace that precedes it.

Not so. We are regenerated SO THAT we might receive forgiveness of sins. This forgiveness of sins is what requires faith. This faith is a result of the new nature given, the Conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the knowledge which God gives us of what Christ has done for us. Thus, it is a "gift" as well as something that we are not forced into, but freely choose.

 

[Winman]

Not so. We are regenerated SO THAT we might receive forgiveness of sins. This forgiveness of sins is what requires faith. This faith is a result of the new nature given, the Conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the knowledge which God gives us of what Christ has done for us. Thus, it is a "gift" as well as something that we are not forced into, but freely choose.

That is not correct. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until after we believe.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What? do you believe you receive the Spirit twice? Once to enable you to believe, and then after you believe you receive the Spirit again?

 

[Havensdad]

Sorry I missed your post on this.

My friend, you might not understand as much about 'translating' the Greek as you assume you do. Point of fact, what I posted regarding the passage in 1 John was a slightly modified explaination of the passage from someone who not only has the degree(s) necessary to qualify him as reliable in tranlating the bible from it's original languages into other languages but has the experience of doing so, and is even 'currently' doing so. That person is one of our own resident members here on the BB - John of Japan

Therefore what I gave to you regarding the passage of 1 John not only follows proper rules of translation but is in fact the very way a person who is a certified bible translator states it should be understood .

I do not need to be an expert on Greek (which I am not). Much like yourself, who is relying on another man's interpretation of that Greek, I am applying what little I know, and comparing that with commentaries: several of which agree with me.

You Said the phrase was making a conditon: agreeing with me:

The participle, though it is a present participle, doesn't in this case indicate time but `condition, "the one who believes."

You then define this condition:

those in the condition of salvation have been regenerated

But this is not what the verse states. It doesn't say anything about this. The condition presented is that those who believe, have been born of God.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."

It is saying, that if you believe, you have been born of God. It is NOT saying that "those in the condition of salvation have been regenerated". Nothing in this verse speaks to that.

It is ALSO not saying, that anyone who believes will be born again. Everyone who is born again, believes. But it does not necessarily say the opposite: that anyone who believes, will be born again. In this way "belief" is dependent upon "being born again", not vice versa.

 

[Havensdad]

That is not correct. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until after we believe.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What? do you believe you receive the Spirit twice? Once to enable you to believe, and then after you believe you receive the Spirit again?

Brother, I didn't say anything about receiving the Holy Spirit. Don't "read into" my post.

 

[Winman]

Havensdad, you have not responded to my earlier post, so I will show it again. These verses show that we believe while uncircumcised, just as Abraham, and after believeing receive the circumcision of Christ, which is the seal of our salvation, which is the Holy Spirit.

One of the best proofs that a man believes while still in a sinful state is circumcision. The scriptures say Abraham believed when yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The scriptures clearly show Abraham believed before he was circumcised. And that circumcision is a seal of the righteousness which he had already attained when yet in uncircumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Abraham is also the example of those who believe though they be not circumcised. That is what verse 11 says.

And the scriptures show that when a man believes, God himself circumcises their heart. This is being born again, receiving the Holy Spirit which is now our seal.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So, it is clear that we believe in uncircumcision just as Abraham did, and then we receive the circumcision of Christ which is the new heart and new birth.

 

[Winman]

Brother, I didn't say anything about receiving the Holy Spirit. Don't "read into" my post.

Well, then explain. If a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe, then does that person receive the Holy Spirit or not?

But the scriptures teach we receive the Spirit after believeing, never before.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So please explain.

 

[Havensdad]

Havensdad, you have not responded to my earlier post, so I will show it again. These verses show that we believe while uncircumcised, just as Abraham, and after believeing receive the circumcision of Christ, which is the seal of our salvation, which is the Holy Spirit.

None of this has anything to do with the issue at hand. Circumcision of the heart and mind is not the same as being freed from the power of sin and Satan.

The scriptures clearly state that we are "freed" SO THAT we might believe and receive forgiveness (cleansing).

 

[Havensdad]

Well, then explain. If a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe, then does that person receive the Holy Spirit or not?

But the scriptures teach we receive the Spirit after believeing, never before.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So please explain.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, after we believe, which is after the "freeing " from the power of Satan.

 

[Winman]

None of this has anything to do with the issue at hand. Circumcision of the heart and mind is not the same as being freed from the power of sin and Satan.

The scriptures clearly state that we are "freed" SO THAT we might believe and receive forgiveness (cleansing).

Sure it does, the scriptures say God will circumcise our hearts so that we can love him with all our heart and soul, and that we may live. This is the new birth.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The scriptures clearly show that the circumcision spoken of in Deut 30:6 is the new birth, being born again. This is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

But the scriptures show we believe while yet in uncircumcision, that is, in a sinful state.

Rom 4:Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This says Abraham is the father and example of all those who believe, though they be not circumcised. This is speaking of the spiritual, not physical, for it says righteousness will be imputed to us also.

 

[Havensdad]

Sure it does, the scriptures say God will circumcise our hearts so that we can love him with all our heart and soul, and that we may live. This is the new birth.

The scriptural order of salvation (at least the portion we are dealing with), is:

#1 God "opens our eyes", "frees us from Satan", "turns us from darkness to light" etc., according to His sovereign election. This is "Repentance", and the stage I would refer to as being "regenerated", although it is not the classical view of regeneration.

#2 We then believe, and are forgiven of sins. God does this by showing us our lost state, showing us what he has done, etc., through his word.

#3 We are turned TO God. We are imputed with righteousness which is synonymous with being "circumcised" in heart", and contemporaneous with being "sealed with the Spirit."

This says Abraham is the father and example of all those who believe, though they be not circumcised. This is speaking of the spiritual, not physical, for it says righteousness will be imputed to us also.

This is speaking of the positive element, (imputing of righteousness) which happens at salvation, not the negative aspect.

Important: Spiritual Rebirth just means that a person is now capable of responding to spiritual stimuli. It does not mean that a person has yet been forgiven of their sins, or exercised faith.

 

[Havensdad]

Anyway Heavensdad, we should just agree to disagree as we both pretty much know each others arguments, stances, and views so I doubt this conversation will do much for either of us.

May the Lord bless you and keep you centered in His will to the fulfilling of His plan and purpose in your life :thumbs:

LOL: I will quit when you do, brother!

:BangHead:

 

[Winman]

The scriptural order of salvation (at least the portion we are dealing with), is:

#1 God "opens our eyes", "frees us from Satan", "turns us from darkness to light" etc., according to His sovereign election. This is "Repentance", and the stage I would refer to as being "regenerated", although it is not the classical view of regeneration.

#2 We then believe, and are forgiven of sins. God does this by showing us our lost state, showing us what he has done, etc., through his word.

#3 We are turned TO God. We are imputed with righteousness which is synonymous with being "circumcised" in heart", and contemporaneous with being "sealed with the Spirit."

This is speaking of the positive element, (imputing of righteousness) which happens at salvation, not the negative aspect.

Important: Spiritual Rebirth just means that a person is now capable of responding to spiritual stimuli. It does not mean that a person has yet been forgiven of their sins, or exercised faith.

No, the order of salvation is shown in Ephesians 1:13

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Say anything you want, Ephesians 1:13 says we first hear the gospel (no mention of regeneration), then believe (no mention of regeneration), and afterward receive the Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 shows the same thing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What is the order here? #1 Hearing, #2 Faith, #3 Receiving the Spirit.

It is always shown in this order in scripture. Always.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

 

[Winman]

And being born again does mean our sins are forgiven.

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.