Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[Havensdad]

No, the order of salvation is shown in Ephesians 1:13

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Say anything you want, Ephesians 1:13 says we first hear the gospel (no mention of regeneration), then believe (no mention of regeneration), and afterward receive the Spirit.

Galations 3:2 shows the same thing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What is the order here? #1 Hearing, #2 Faith, #3 Receiving the Spirit.

It is always shown in this order in scripture. Always.

Acts 11:Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

It is shown, but it is not complete. You cannot argue from silence. Just because a particular truth is present in one verse, but is not mentioned in thee other, does mean you can dismiss it.

Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'


What is the order? First, someone is sent preaching (verse 17).

Second they "turn from darkness to light" from the the "power of Satan to the power of God." This is SO THAT they may receive forgiveness through faith.

So the order in Ephesians is correct: it just doesn't list everything. Until someone is released from the power of Satan, they cannot "hear" the word, or "see" the light. The "prince of this world has blinded their eyes." He has deafened their ears. Unless God frees them, they cannot respond to the Gospel.

Jesus agrees with this: he says the reason people did not receive Him, is that they could not "hear his word" because they were "Of their father the devil." (John 8).

 

[Havensdad]

And being born again does mean our sins are forgiven.

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Where does this speak of being born again? Again, don't "read into" the text. This is speaking of forgiveness of sins/justification/sanctification. Not being "born again."

 

[Winman]

It is shown, but it is not complete. You cannot argue from silence. Just because a particular truth is present in one verse, but is not mentioned in thee other, does mean you can dismiss it.

That is laughable. You will find no other verse in scripture that is as specific and concise on the order of events in salvation as Ephesians 1:13. You simply don't like it because it proves the doctrine of Calvinism error.

I could show you half a dozen examples of people who first heard the preaching (with no mention of regeneration), then believed (with no mention of regeneration), and then afterward received the Holy Spirit.

The conversion of Paul is a perfect example. The Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus and spoke to him. He believed, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days later.

Cornelius heard the preaching of Peter. He believed and then the Holy Spirit fell on him.

Peter and the apostles believed on Jesus, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Pentacost, many days later.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What happened first? They heard the word of God from Peter and were convicted. No mention of regeneration whatsoever. Then Peter tells them to repent or turn from unbelief and trust in Christ. After they believe they will receive the Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

What did Peter say about the Gentiles here? He said they #1 heard the gospel, #2 believed, #3 God bare witness by giving them the Holy Ghost.

You will never find a different order shown in scriptures.

 

[webdog]

The scriptural order of salvation (at least the portion we are dealing with), is:

#1 God "opens our eyes", "frees us from Satan", "turns us from darkness to light" etc., according to His sovereign election. This is "Repentance", and the stage I would refer to as being "regenerated", although it is not the classical view of regeneration.

#2 We then believe, and are forgiven of sins. God does this by showing us our lost state, showing us what he has done, etc., through his word.

#3 We are turned TO God. We are imputed with righteousness which is synonymous with being "circumcised" in heart", and contemporaneous with being "sealed with the Spirit."

The scriptures clearly state that we are "freed" SO THAT we might believe and receive forgiveness (cleansing).

Is there a chance they might not believe?

 

[webdog]

Where does this speak of being born again? Again, don't "read into" the text. This is speaking of forgiveness of sins/justification/sanctification. Not being "born again."

Justified and born again are one in the same. He did not read into the text anything but what should be.

 

[webdog]

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Clearly the regeneration (being made alive) occurs WITH Christ, not prior to coming to Christ. This single verse alone refutes the entire man made doctrine of pre faith regeneration!

 

[OldRegular]

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Clearly the regeneration (being made alive) occurs WITH Christ, not prior to coming to Christ. This single verse alone refutes the entire man made doctrine of pre faith regeneration!

That verse alone establishes pre-faith regeneration.

 

[webdog]

That verse alone establishes pre-faith regeneration.

Made alive WITH CHRIST. Establishes regeneration occurs upon faith in Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

Made alive WITH CHRIST. Establishes regeneration occurs upon faith in Christ.

Actually, it doesn't and it can't. The aorist verbs signify that God, who is the subject of the verbs, is doing the action. The aorist means that He did this in time past, namely when Christ died on the cross (because that is the means of our forgiveness).

So, you are free to argue for regeneration being concurrent with faith, but you can't do it from this passage. The Greek won't support your argument.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

Actually, it doesn't and it can't. The aorist verbs signify that God, who is the subject of the verbs, is doing the action. The aorist means that He did this in time past, namely when Christ died on the cross (because that is the means of our forgiveness).

So, you are free to argue for regeneration being concurrent with faith, but you can't do it from this passage. The Greek won't support your argument.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I agree God is the one doing the regeneration, however the text states it is with Christ, not prior to being in Him. As Ephesians 1 shows, "in Him" is the cause of God's action.

 

[The Archangel]

I agree God is the one doing the regeneration, however the text states it is with Christ, not prior to being in Him. As Ephesians 1 shows, "in Him" is the cause of God's action.

Actually, the text states that it is "Together with Him," obviously referring to Christ. The "together" in Greek is far more instructive than just the simple "with" and it means that it is happening at the same time. So for God to do these things (all the participles in the passage) "together with Him" means he is doing to us at the same time that He is doing to Christ. Therefore, this passage is far more suggestive of regeneration preceding salvation.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

Actually, the text states that it is "Together with Him," obviously referring to Christ. The "together" in Greek is far more instructive than just the simple "with" and it means that it is happening at the same time. So for God to do these things (all the participles in the passage) "together with Him" means he is doing to us at the same time that He is doing to Christ. Therefore, this passage is far more suggestive of regeneration preceding salvation.

Blessings,

The Archangel

We have been crucified with Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This occurs upon faith in Christ, not prior.

 

[Havensdad]

That is laughable.

The Word of God is laughable?

You will find no other verse in scripture that is as specific and concise on the order of events in salvation as Ephesians 1:13.

That is nothing but your opinion. Others, who believe as you do, believe that other verses are more specific, and they quote them as their pet verses.

Since the verse I quoted specifically shows the opening of the eyes, and freeing from Satan preceding faith and forgiveness, I do not know how you can argue with it. Are you just denying this verse altogether?

You simply don't like it because it proves the doctrine of Calvinism error.

What on EARTH could possibly be my motivation for "wanting" to hold on to what you call Calvinism (for some unknown reason: Calvin did not originate it)?

When I found out about reformed Soteriology, I hated it. So why would I choose, AGAINST something that I liked, if I believed the scriptures didn't teach it? That is insane.

I could show you half a dozen examples of people who first heard the preaching (with no mention of regeneration), then believed (with no mention of regeneration), and then afterward received the Holy Spirit.

All it takes is one verse, that DOES show it: then it must be included in every verse, unless specifically excluded. But there are MULTIPLE verses which show God opening someones eyes, before they believed.

The conversion of Paul is a perfect example. The Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus and spoke to him. He believed, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days later.

The Lord chose Paul, then appeared to Him. By Paul's own Words, in his testimony, He states that God came to open peoples eyes, and turn them from darkness to light that they may believe and be forgiven.

Cornelius heard the preaching of Peter. He believed and then the Holy Spirit fell on him.

Not talking about empowering by the Holy Spirit. We are talking about someone being enabled to respond to Spiritual Stimuli, which according to Paul, precedes faith and forgiveness. Nothing in that verse says that God DIDN'T open their eyes and turn them, so that they might believe: in fact, since Christ says this is what He does, we can conclude it DID happen: Christ does not lie.

Peter and the apostles believed on Jesus, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Pentacost, many days later.

Ahhh, but they were ALREADY "clean". (John 13:10).

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What happened first? They heard the word of God from Peter and were convicted. No mention of regeneration whatsoever. Then Peter tells them to repent or turn from unbelief and trust in Christ. After they believe they will receive the Spirit.

How many times must I restate this? I am not talking about receiving the Holy Spirit. Being Cleansed is separate from being filled with the Holy Spirit (as shown above). One must be born again, in order to believe, and be justified, so that they can receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

What did Peter say about the Gentiles here? He said they #1 heard the gospel, #2 believed, #3 God bare witness by giving them the Holy Ghost.

You will never find a different order shown in scriptures.

Except the one that I have shown, with Jesus speaking from the Eternal perspective, stating that people are turned SO THAT they might believe and receive forgiveness.

 

[The Archangel]

We have been crucified with Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This occurs upon faith in Christ, not prior.

There are two issues here. First you've been arguing from Colossians 2:13 and this clearly states the "together with" idea that what God had done to/for us He did in the past moment of Christ on the cross. So, when you jump to Galatians 2:20 this causes a non-sequitur line of reasoning. It is as if you are saying "I'm right in my interpretation of Colossians 2 because Galatians 2 says..."

Secondly, the passage in Galatians 2:20 has the exact same Greek "Together with."

So, your argument fails on two counts.

The "together with Him [Christ]" concept runs through the Pauline epistles with an incessant drum beat. Paul is making the argument that any thing that we are given by God is bought for us in Christ on the cross.

Our salvation is bought by Christ dying on the cross because we died too on the cross--we have been crucified together with Christ.

Again, you are free to make your argument for regeneration being concurrent with salvation, but you can't do it from these passages because the Greek doesn't allow for it.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Havensdad]

Is there a chance they might not believe?

I believe they COULD theoretically: I just believe none WILL. Christ said that all who are drawn WILL come to Him.

Also, I think that the Glory of God is such, that when one sees Him truly, and understands what He has done, in the "freed" state to which God has blessed them, they will all have faith.

In this way, it is both true that we choose to come to Christ, and yet faith is a gift in that God enacts events that will inevitably draw His elect to Him.

 

[The Archangel]

No, the order of salvation is shown in Ephesians 1:13

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Say anything you want, Ephesians 1:13 says we first hear the gospel (no mention of regeneration), then believe (no mention of regeneration), and afterward receive the Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 shows the same thing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What is the order here? #1 Hearing, #2 Faith, #3 Receiving the Spirit.

It is always shown in this order in scripture. Always.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Ephesians 1:13 is not saying what you are saying. You are missing and mixing-up the participles and the finite verbs.

The only finite verb in the passage is "[you] were sealed." So the passage simply reads "In Him you were sealed" the participles elaborate by adding "Having heard the word of truth" and "Having believed in Him." No aspect of progression is in the text, nor is it implied. The verbs and the participles are Aorist signifying something that happened in the past. This is because Paul is writing to Christians and their salvation (regardless of your opinion on regeneration/salvation issue) happened before Paul wrote this letter.

So, your argument can't be made from this passage.

Galatians 3:2 is a rhetorical question and doesn't even come close to addressing what you claim it addresses.

Acts 17:11 the "who believed" is not a statement of belief (as in I did this). Rather this word is a participle and it addresses the gift of God that was given (which is referring to the giving of the Holy Spirit) and to whom it is given--the believing ones. But, Luke is not arguing that the Holy Spirit is coming after salvation. Now, I don't think you'd argue that the believers were not saved until the Holy Spirit fell upon them, but that is the logical conclusion to what you are arguing.

This "sign" of the Holy Spirit was given to the Jews at Pentecost, the Samaritans, and the Gentiles at a later date. This is what Peter is testifying about. He is not saying that the Holy Spirit follows salvation. Even a basic reading of Acts will confirm this.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[AresMan]

That is not correct. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until after we believe.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What? do you believe you receive the Spirit twice? Once to enable you to believe, and then after you believe you receive the Spirit again?

I believe that the Holy Spirit regenerates us, then after faith in the Gospel and justification, the Holy Spirit indwells us.

During the early stages of the church, the Holy Spirit did not immediately indwell a regenerated believer until one was baptized (Acts 2:38), or had an apostle or someone else with the Holy Spirit lay hands upon him (Acts 8:14-24). After God ordained Paul to preach to the Gentiles, the Holy Spirit began to indwell new converts without baptism and without the laying on of hands (Acts 10:44-48). This method continues to this day.

It is completely logical and Scriptural to infer that the Holy Spirit is always involved in regenerating one to spiritual life, but that regeneration and indwelling are not the same thing. Indwelling happens now once one is justified.

If I may use an illustration, regeneration can be likened to using a key to unlock and open a door to an old house and tidying up the inside for living accomodations. Indwelling would then be formally taking occupancy.

 

[BaptistBob]

Christ said that all who are drawn WILL come to Him.

No, he says they can't come to him unless they are drawn. He never says that all who are drawn will come. He's saying that the Father draws through his message. If the message is rejected, they can't come and partake of the bread of life.

 

[BaptistBob]

Actually, the text states that it is "Together with Him," obviously referring to Christ. The "together" in Greek is far more instructive than just the simple "with" and it means that it is happening at the same time. So for God to do these things (all the participles in the passage) "together with Him" means he is doing to us at the same time that He is doing to Christ. Therefore, this passage is far more suggestive of regeneration preceding salvation.

Blessings,

The Archangel

That really isn't the issue. The issue is that being made alive follows faith. Being dead to God was a common enough concept at that time, and it meant that people were separated from God due to moral corruption. The cross destroyed sin and death, so that by it those who have faith in Christ are once again put in a right relationship with God -- they are made alive.

Therefore, upon being united with Christ we are joined with him in all that he did. Of course, when speaking to believers, we speak of this as already having happened, since it happened to "us" when "we" believed.

 

[Havensdad]

No, he says they can't come to him unless they are drawn. He never says that all who are drawn will come. He's saying that the Father draws through his message. If the message is rejected, they can't come and partake of the bread of life.

What?


Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


Also:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Are you a universalist?