Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[AresMan]

What?


Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


Also:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Are you a universalist?

Watch for an argument that the ones "drawn" and the ones "given" are not the same set of people. Also, watch for John 12:32 to "prove" that the "drawing" is not effectual and that this ineffectual drawing is upon every individual person who ever lived, is living, and will live.

 

[BaptistBob]

What?


Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


Also:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Are you a universalist?

Yes, notice how neither verse says what you said.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The Father gives all who believe his teaching to Christ. Christ is not delivering his own message -- it is the Father's.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to Christ unless they listen and learn from the Father. The Father draws through his message, and those who listen learn about and believe in Christ. They come and partake of the bread of life.

 

[The Archangel]

That really isn't the issue. The issue is that being made alive follows faith. Being dead to God was a common enough concept at that time, and it meant that people were separated from God due to moral corruption. The cross destroyed sin and death, so that by it those who have faith in Christ are once again put in a right relationship with God -- they are made alive.

Therefore, upon being united with Christ we are joined with him in all that he did. Of course, when speaking to believers, we speak of this as already having happened, since it happened to "us" when "we" believed.

You are taking my comments out of context. Webdog and I are discussing a particular passage and his claim that this passage shows that faith must precede regeneration. The Greek of the passage does not allow for Webdog's interpretation.

But, since you brought it up, it really is the issue. Paul is making a specific argument that what we have is bought by the death of Christ on the cross and that His death on the cross actually did something for us--it did not just make something possible. Paul's argument is that we were united with Christ as He was on the cross. So, your assertion about us being joined to Christ when we believed, while common, is not supported by this passage.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[BaptistBob]

Watch for an argument that the ones "drawn" and the ones "given" are not the same set of people. Also, watch for John 12:32 to "prove" that the "drawing" is not effectual and that this ineffectual drawing is upon every individual person who ever lived, is living, and will live.

Watch for exegesis, and not simply highlighting words in verses.

 

[OldRegular]

No, he says they can't come to him unless they are drawn. He never says that all who are drawn will come. He's saying that the Father draws through his message. If the message is rejected, they can't come and partake of the bread of life.

John 6:37. [KJV] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:37. [NASB] All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

 

[BaptistBob]

John 6:37. [KJV] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:37. [NASB] All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Glad to see we agree. :godisgood:

 

[OldRegular]

Original posted by Havensdad
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Response by BaptistBob
The Father gives all who believe his teaching to Christ. Christ is not delivering his own message -- it is the Father's.

Is your response what is called eisegesis?

 

[BaptistBob]

You are taking my comments out of context. Webdog and I are discussing a particular passage and his claim that this passage shows that faith must precede regeneration. The Greek of the passage does not allow for Webdog's interpretation.

But, since you brought it up, it really is the issue. Paul is making a specific argument that what we have is bought by the death of Christ on the cross and that His death on the cross actually did something for us--it did not just make something possible. Paul's argument is that we were united with Christ as He was on the cross. So, your assertion about us being joined to Christ when we believed, while common, is not supported by this passage.

Blessings,

The Archangel

What I am saying is that through faith the believer participates in the cross event. Few commentators disagree.

The concept is captured in a parallel verse in Colossians 2

12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

"Through" what?

 

[BaptistBob]

Is your response what is called eisegesis?

By comparison, yes. (I'm not going to participate in banter with you, brother. Feel free to mock, if it helps.) :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by webdog
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Clearly the regeneration (being made alive) occurs WITH Christ, not prior to coming to Christ. This single verse alone refutes the entire man made doctrine of pre faith regeneration!

Response by OldRegular
That verse alone establishes pre-faith regeneration.

Further response by webdog
Made alive WITH CHRIST. Establishes regeneration occurs upon faith in Christ.

Excellent example of eisegesis webdog.

 

[Havensdad]

LOL. This is horrible: why do I continually do this to myself?

:BangHead:

 

[OldRegular]

Glad to see we agree. :godisgood:

I doubt it!

 

[The Archangel]

What I am saying is that through faith the believer participates in the cross event. Few commentators disagree.

The concept is captured in a parallel verse in Colossians 2

12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

"Through" what?

First off, "Your" (from "Your faith") is not in the manuscript.

I would agree that participation in the cross is based on faith. However it is anachronistic to suggest that we participate in the cross of the 1st Century while we are currently in the 21st Century. The aorist forms that litter the passage are quite clear--the cross and our participation in it, while through faith, happened at the cross, not at our salvation. We cannot participate in a past event. According to the text (again, the aorist verbs and participles) the participation was at the actual event.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[BaptistBob]

First off, "Your" (from "Your faith") is not in the manuscript.

Do you have anything to add to that, or is your only point that you want woodenly literal translations?

I would agree that participation in the cross is based on faith.

Great.

However it is anachronistic to suggest that we participate in the cross of the 1st Century while we are currently in the 21st Century.

No, you're just being selective about what is anachronistic. It is anachronistic to say that we participate in the cross by faith in the 1st century when we live in the 21st. That is found nowhere in Scripture. Yet in Scripture, it says we both participated in the past and in the future, since we are already seated in the heavenlies, by faith, at whatever time we stand.

The aorist forms that litter the passage are quite clear--the cross and our participation in it, while through faith, happened at the cross, not at our salvation. We cannot participate in a past event. According to the text (again, the aorist verbs and participles) the participation was at the actual event.

Sorry, but it's normal interpetation, and the arorists have no affect on the concept whatsoever. If we participate in the past event done by Christ, through faith, then the aroists are the expected way of expressing it. What is true of Christ becomes true of us when we believe. There are no grammatical issues here, whatsoever.

 

[Benefactor]

First off, "Your" (from "Your faith") is not in the manuscript.

I would agree that participation in the cross is based on faith. However it is anachronistic to suggest that we participate in the cross of the 1st Century while we are currently in the 21st Century. The aorist forms that litter the passage are quite clear--the cross and our participation in it, while through faith, happened at the cross, not at our salvation. We cannot participate in a past event. According to the text (again, the aorist verbs and participles) the participation was at the actual event.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Often we read "his faith" "her faith" "their faith" "your faith" some of these Jesus made and some were made after the resurrection. Those made after the resurrection are close to the resurrection and those today of course 2k removed. Are you saying in your view that the statements concerning faith associated with personal pronouns are not relevant today as they were just following the resurrection and by Christ Himself? If I say "your faith has saved you" as Jesus did would that be true as you see it?

Please expand on your definition of the use of the verb forms from the Greek concerning the aorist and participle. The comments seem to come up short of a full and clear definition.

Jesus said to the woman "your faith has saved you” Paul told Timothy that saved is to be understood as "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" which teach that the woman first believed then was saved which is defined as the work of the Holy Spirit, thus illustrating that in all cases salvation is first preceded by faith and that this is the Scriptural order as it should be in all ages according to the Scripture. Not to mention Romans 3 and 10. But perhaps I have missed something here.

In Luke 7:50 "your" genitive second person singular and saved is perfect indicative active which means that the woman believed first and was saved as the result of believing which is define by Paul as the work of the Holy Spirit. Man's faith and the new birth by the Holy Spirit, but faith first then regeneration in that order. What is it that you are chronologically trying to say because it is not clear as I read what you are trying to express? Add more definition to your comment if you don't mind.

 

[BaptistBob]

Are you a universalist?

No. False choice.

 

[Havensdad]

No. False choice.

No it's not. Those that are drawn, are raised on the last day. That phrase is never used of unbelievers: it refers to salvation.

 

[Winman]

No it's not. Those that are drawn, are raised on the last day. That phrase is never used of unbelievers: it refers to salvation.

That it baloney.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If Christ be lifted up, who will be drawn? All men

So, if a person gets saved, were they drawn? Yes.

But does everybody come who is drawn or called? No.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Jesus clearly shows here that God calls and bids men (which is the same as drawing them), and that men can refuse and often do.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here Jesus shows many men are called or drawn, but only few are chosen (elect). And why weren't they chosen? Because they refused to obey and come to the wedding when God called and bid them.

So, is someone who does get saved called? Yes.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

But does everybody who is called by the gospel obey and come? No.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Notice it says all. All men receive the calling or drawing, but not every one who is called or is drawn obeys and believes the gospel.

And the scriptures never say God regenerates a man to believe. A good example of how God persuades men to believe is shown in Exodus.

Exo 1:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
2 And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.
3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.
4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.
7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.
8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Where is the regeneration shown here? It is not. Numerous times it speaks of the Jews not believeing. God commanded Moses to show them signs so that they would be convinced or persuaded. God does not impose belief upon you.

And Jesus showed the same in the NT.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Here Jesus appeals to Philip's reason. They had been together for three years. Philip had heard Jesus's preaching every day and should have believed. But Jesus says if he cannot believe from the preaching, then believe because of the many great works and miracles he had seen with his own eyes.

Again, Philip did not have faith imposed upon him by the Holy Spirit as Calvinism teaches. The Holy Spirit persuades or convinces one to believe, not regenerates one to believe.

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Paul says they persuade men to believe. Faith is not imposed.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Not one place in the scriptures does it show that God regenerates a man to believe. On the contrary, the scriptures show that God persuades or convinces man to believe.

 

[Havensdad]

That it baloney.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If Christ be lifted up, who will be drawn? All men

So, if a person gets saved, were they drawn? Yes.

But does everybody come who is drawn or called? No.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Jesus clearly shows here that God calls and bids men (which is the same as drawing them), and that men can refuse and often do.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here Jesus shows many men are called or drawn, but only few are chosen (elect). And why weren't they chosen? Because they refused to obey and come to the wedding when God called and bid them.

So, is someone who does get saved called? Yes.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

But does everybody who is called by the gospel obey and come? No.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Notice it says all. All men receive the calling or drawing, but not every one who is called or is drawn obeys and believes the gospel.

And the scriptures never say God regenerates a man to believe. A good example of how God persuades men to believe is shown in Exodus.

Exo 1:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
2 And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.
3 And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.
4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.
7 And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.
8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Where is the regeneration shown here? It is not. Numerous times it speaks of the Jews not believeing. God commanded Moses to show them signs so that they would be convinced or persuaded. God does not impose belief upon you.

And Jesus showed the same in the NT.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Here Jesus appeals to Philip's reason. They had been together for three years. Philip had heard Jesus's preaching every day and should have believed. But Jesus says if he cannot believe from the preaching, then believe because of the many great works and miracles he had seen with his own eyes.

Again, Philip did not have faith imposed upon him by the Holy Spirit as Calvinism teaches. The Holy Spirit persuades or convinces one to believe, not regenerates one to believe.

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Paul says they persuade men to believe. Faith is not imposed.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Not one place in the scriptures does it show that God regenerates a man to believe. On the contrary, the scriptures show that God persuades or convinces man to believe.

Yes, it actually clearly teaches it.

Also :

"Cmon Kids: we are going to have cake and go skating!"

"Oh, sorry little Johnny, you don't get to go skating: when I said "and", I meant 'some of you'. Hope you enjoyed your cake."

That does not work. Words have meaning. And you cannot simply dismiss a word (and, which is a direct correlative statement), because you do not like it.
Jesus clearly says that the Father will draw these men, and Christ will raise them up. It is an "and", not a "maybe, if you choose to."

I am SORRY, that you don't like the fact that God is in Control. He is in control of your life, He gets what He wants, and their is nothing you can do about it. Ha Ha.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

Now, tell me did EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL come to Jesus? (Matthew 3:5)

Not only that, but Jesus does not reference salvation at all in this verse, nor is the word "men" actually in the text at all. I believe, in context, it is referring to JUDGMENT in this verse, not salvation. That is the context.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Further, in this verse it is Jesus who draws, but Jesus Himself said no one could come to Him for salvation, unless the Father draws. Each person of the Trinity has different functions: the Father did not die on the Cross (Patripassianism). Neither does Jesus draw men for salvation. That is the Father's work.

 

[Winman]

You know you are not correct, but that is your problem, not mine.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is this verse speaking of all men? No. It is speaking only of those who do get saved, and shows that that they were drawn.

But is John 12:32 speaking of all men? Yes.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So, John 6:44 is only speaking of saved people, whereas John 12:32 is speaking of all men whether saved or not.

But if you want to convince yourself that you do not understand the difference, that is your choice.