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Cause verses Allows

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do not think God incited the colonists to rebel - God allowed it and worked through it for his own purposes.

I think we cannot agree because it seems you think God is the first cause of every action (that He directly causes people to do everything, including sin), which I strongly disagree with.

What say you people?

Jhn 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


Pilate, having the power to protect Jesus, allowed Jesus to be murdered.

Now Pilate did not cause the people to kill Jesus, he only allowed it.

Was Pilate innocent of the murder?

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May I ask, who planned the crucifixion of Jesus?

The Jews?
Pilate?
Satan?
God?

:godisgood:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Isa 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

:jesus:
 

Amy.G

New Member
May I ask, who planned the crucifixion of Jesus?

The Jews?
Pilate?
Satan?
God?

:godisgood:

God planned it through Pilate, Satan, Judas, the Jews and the Romans. And the bible says it was His pleasure to do so.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God planned it through Pilate, Satan, Judas, the Jews and the Romans. And the bible says it was His pleasure to do so.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

God planned a murder?

If we plan a murder we are guilty of sin are we not?

:jesus:
 

Amy.G

New Member
God planned a murder?

If we plan a murder we are guilty of sin are we not?

:jesus:

First of all, God does not sin. The OT is full of accounts in which God commanded the total destruction of cities, which included many children and innocents. Does this make God a murderer? God forbid!

In the case of Jesus, God planned a sacrifice for sin, which meant that the shedding of blood must occur or there is no remission. He used the sinfulness of man to accomplish this.

Another thought.....in all the OT accounts of God's "killing" of people, it was always a judgment against them. It was not out of a sinful desire to kill. The death of Christ was also a judgment against sin. In all of these cases, I think God carried out justice and fulfilled His word "the wages of sin is death".
 

Johnv

New Member
There's a huge difference between "planning" and "allowing". God allows sin as a part and parcel of us having free will. When a grievous sin is committed, however, God always has the last word. We should not confuse God having the last word with God condining the sin which led up to it.
 

Amy.G

New Member
There's a huge difference between "planning" and "allowing". God allows sin as a part and parcel of us having free will. When a grievous sin is committed, however, God always has the last word. We should not confuse God having the last word with God condining the sin which led up to it.

Are you saying that God only "allowed" Christ to die and had nothing to do with the planning of it?
 

billwald

New Member
Someplace in the Bible God says, "I cause good and I cause evil." Something to that effect. Can never remember the citation.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You're thinking of God planning the same way you or I would plan something God isn't so limited.

I don't think you answered her question. Did God plan Jesus' murder or did He just allow it?

:thumbsup:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In the case of Jesus, God planned a sacrifice for sin, which meant that the shedding of blood must occur or there is no remission. He used the sinfulness of man to accomplish this.
.

God planned the sacrifice of Himself for the remission of sin before He created anything, even before sin existed.

Did He have to use murder by sinful men?

The Father could have taken a tree, pulled it up by the roots and slain Jesus Himself, maybe in the town square. Wouldn't the sacrifice still have been made?

:thumbsup:
 

Amy.G

New Member
God planned the sacrifice of Himself for the remission of sin before He created anything, even before sin existed.

Did He have to use murder by sinful men?
Hmmmm. Yes, I think He did. Jesus' died because of sin and at the hands of sin. What if His death had been accidental? :eek:

The Father could have taken a tree, pulled it up by the roots and slain Jesus Himself, maybe in the town square. Wouldn't the sacrifice still have been made?
Don't think so. Jesus willingly laid down His life at the hands of sinners, for sin.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

This verse has come up on the BB many times before. The word translated as "evil" is more aptly translated as "calamity."

Does it follow logically, then, that ra is best interpreted as evil in Isaiah 45:7? Of course not, and any suggestion that it does logically follow is nonsense. First, any Hebrew concordance will list several meanings for ra, and list the various translations possible for the word. One example to add to the proverbs 16:4 citation above will suffice to demonstrate that ra does not always designate evil proper:

And he asked Pharaoh’s officers that were with him in the ward of his lord’s house, saying, Wherefore look ye so sadly today? (Gen 40:7)
In fact, any standard concordance will list multiple nuances in meaning for this word. For reference, follow this link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7451&t=KJV&cscs=Isa*


Thus, a simple word Hebrew word search is inadequate to help us arrive at the proper meaning of ra in Isaiah 45:7. Fortunately, two tried and true principles are available to us that remove any and all doubt about what Isaiah meant, not in accordance with our pet theories or interpretations of what he meant, but pursuant to an objective standard that would compel any and all rational observers to arrive at the same conclusion.
The first is context. Isaiah begins chapter 45 with these words: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him…For the sake of my servant Jacob, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.” It’s evident, then, that the “evil” God is creating in verse seven is better understood as calamity or disaster. It’s a description of the judgment of God on his people achieved through Cyrus.


This should be enough to convince both skeptic and believer alike that what Isaiah means in verse 7 is best understood by us as calamity or disaster. For the stubborn, however, there’s further, undeniable proof that God does not create evil according to Isaiah 45:7. In addition to context, it is important to recognize literary features of a text when they are present. Failure to do so leads to error in interpretation. Applicable to Isaiah 45:7 is a particular Hebrew construction known as parallelism.


his is precisely what occurs in Isaiah 45:7: “I make peace, and create evil.” What is the opposite of peace? Calamity, turmoil, disaster, war–similar to what might be delivered by Cyrus–but certainly not evil proper. Hence, the verse is properly translated in modern language as “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.” Note the antithetical structure: light/darkness, prosperity/disaster.

To claim, then, that God creates evil on the basis of Isaiah 45:7 is simply the result of improper Biblical handling, and the equivocation that results from conflation of modern English with 400 year-old KJV English. Despite rumors to the contrary, Biblical interpretation is really not all that nebulous in the overwhelming majorty of cases.
http://www.marcschooley.com/blog/?p=86

He is not the only one to say this.

Also, the word is "calamity" or "disaster" in most modern versions.

God does not create evil; God is good and abhors evil. Evil is not a thing anyway; it is a result of sin or it is sin acting out.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This verse has come up on the BB many times before. The word translated as "evil" is more aptly translated as "calamity."

http://www.marcschooley.com/blog/?p=86

He is not the only one to say this.

Also, the word is "calamity" or "disaster" in most modern versions.

God does not create evil; God is good and abhors evil. Evil is not a thing anyway; it is a result of sin or it is sin acting out.

Doesn't matter what translation you choose, God creates the disasters and clamities that kill and destroy people. Yet God is good and abhors evil, as you rightly said. Even the evil which He has created for His glory.

Do you then believe diasters and clamities are a "good" thing? What is the opposite of "good"? "Bad" maybe? Then God creates the bad even though He is good.

:jesus:
 
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Marcia

Active Member
Doesn't matter what translation you choose, God creates the disasters and clamities that kill and destroy people. Yet God is good and abhors evil, as you rightly said. Even the evil which He has created for His glory.

:jesus:


But Steaver, when God does these things, they are not evil!!!!! God does not murder; when people die as a result of what God is doing, or what He does through others (as what happened to many in the OT), it was execution of His judgment. That is not murder.

To say a God who abhors evil actually creates it is contradictory, and I consider it a horrific view. It reminds me of dualism - good and evil are part of each other.


"God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." This is in 1 John somewhere.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hmmmm. Yes, I think He did. Jesus' died because of sin and at the hands of sin. What if His death had been accidental? :eek:


Don't think so. Jesus willingly laid down His life at the hands of sinners, for sin.

Why did it have to be this way?

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But Steaver, when God does these things, they are not evil!!!!! God does not murder; when people die as a result of what God is doing, or what He does through others (as what happened to many in the OT), it was execution of His judgment. That is not murder.

To say a God who abhors evil actually creates it is contradictory, and I consider it a horrific view. It reminds me of dualism - good and evil are part of each other.


"God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." This is in 1 John somewhere.

What was God's judgment on Job?
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But Steaver, when God does these things, they are not evil!!!!! God does not murder; when people die as a result of what God is doing, or what He does through others (as what happened to many in the OT), it was execution of His judgment. That is not murder.

To say a God who abhors evil actually creates it is contradictory, and I consider it a horrific view. It reminds me of dualism - good and evil are part of each other.


"God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." This is in 1 John somewhere.

Job 2:10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
 
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