For By Grace Are Ye Saved

[OldRegular]

even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2:5


I don't care what elaborate definitions of grace the theologians have come up with over the years. The scriptual definition:

Grace is being brought to life from the dead.

AMEN! And only GOD is able to do that!

 

[OldRegular]

If you didn't then the fact remains God has forced you to love, forced you to obey, forced you believe.

You are consistent Allan, Consistently incorrect.

I praise GOD daily for HIS salvation of me. If it makes you happy to say that GOD forcibly saved me, so be it. I believe, and Scripture teaches, that, while I was dead in trespasses and sins, GOD made me spiritually alive. HE then gave me the gift of FAITH whereby I could accept all that HE has for those who belong to HIM.

 

[OldRegular]

1. God gives man the ability to reason even within himself and the will that rejects God is just as much given to man as the will to receive God is. The ability to go one way or the other is in everyone and given at birth.

GOD through the Apostle Paul describes the will of the unregenerate man as follows:
Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[OldRegular]

1. God gives man the ability to reason even within himself and the will that rejects God is just as much given to man as the will to receive God is. The ability to go one way or the other is in everyone and given at birth.

Then why does one respond and another not? Did GOD give one a little more "Will to Receive GOD Than Another"? Doesn't that make GOD unfair?

 

[Revmitchell]

Then why does one respond and another not? Did GOD give one a little more "Will to Receive GOD Than Another"? Doesn't that make GOD unfair?

Now based on your own reformed arguments I want you to take a look at your own statement and see if you need to revamp it.

 

[The Archangel]

He who has the power and authority to give salvation gets the credit for salvation regardless of what response He may require from those He saves. It matters not that God requires a response of the will from man for at least two reasons:

1. God gives man the ability to reason even within himself and the will that rejects God is just as much given to man as the will to receive God is. The ability to go one way or the other is in everyone and given at birth.

This is a common thought among many non-reformed persons. The problem with this idea, however, is that it make man neutral--neither good nor bad. But the scripture clearly tells us that the state of man is not and cannot be good.

By the way, this is why I also reject the idea of double predestination. Your thought above and the double predestination position seek to make man neutral.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Revmitchell]

This is a common thought among many non-reformed persons. The problem with this idea, however, is that it make man neutral--neither good nor bad. But the scripture clearly tells us that the state of man is not and cannot be good.

By the way, this is why I also reject the idea of double predestination. Your thought above and the double predestination position seek to make man neutral.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Not sure how you came to this neutral position but it is far from the truth. One does not lead to the other.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Then why does one respond and another not? Did GOD give one a little more "Will to Receive GOD Than Another"? Doesn't that make GOD unfair?

Now based on your own reformed arguments I want you to take a look at your own statement and see if you need to revamp it.

I have never accused GOD of being unfair. It is you Arminians who do when confronted with the Biblical Doctrines of GRACE. The fact is that were it not for GOD's electing some to salvation no one would be saved.

 

[The Archangel]

Not sure how you came to this neutral position but it is far from the truth. One does not lead to the other.

I do not hold to a "neutral" position. You are correct that it is far from the truth. I think you are holding to a neutral position. You said: The ability to go one way or the other is in everyone and given at birth.

This is pretty much a position of neutrality--that man is born neither good nor bad.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Crabtownboy]

I suspect that most Baptists who participate on this Forum believe that those who are saved are saved by the Grace of GOD. Yet many of those same people say that they must make the final decision in their own salvation, the decision to accept the Grace of GOD.

However, if I make the final decision regarding my salvation does that not deny the truth of the Scripture that states: For by grace are ye saved.?

Salvation through grace is given to those who make the decision to accept it through Jesus Christ. However, it is not just an acceptance, but a turning to a new life in Christ. If there is no change in the person's life, no discipleship, no following, regardless of the price, of Christ it is 'cheap grace' and thus not grace at all.

"Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession. … Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer
German theologian and resister"

This cheap grace has been no less disastrous to our own spiritual lives. Instead of opening up the way to Christ it has closed it. Instead of calling us to follow Christ, it has hardened us in our disobedience. Perhaps we had once heard the gracious call to follow Him, and had at this command even taken the first few steps along the path of
discipleship in the discipline of obedience, only to find ourselves confronted by the word of cheap grace. Was that not merciless and hard? The only effect that such a word could have on us was to bar our way to progress, and seduce us to the mediocre level of the world, quenching the joy of discipleship by telling us that we were following a way of our own choosing, that we were spending our strength and disciplining ourselves in vain- all of which was not merely useless, but extremely dangerous. After all, we were told, our salvation had already been accomplished by the grace of God. The smoking flax was mercilessly extinguished. It was unkind to speak to men like this, for such a cheap offer could only leave them bewildered and tempt them from the way to which they had been called by Christ. Having laid hold on cheap grace, they were barred for ever from the knowledge of costly grace. Deceived and weakened, men felt that they were strong now that they were in possession of this cheap grace- whereas they had in fact lost the power to live the life of discipleship and obedience. The word of cheap grace has been the ruin of more Christians than any commandment of works.

http://sobrietyandsimplicity.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html

Grace is costly. It cost Jesus His life. It will cost your life.

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
Matthew 10:37-39

 

[The Archangel]

Salvation through grace is given to those who make the decision to accept it through Jesus Christ. However, it is not just an acceptance, but a turning to a new life in Christ. If there is no change in the person's life, no discipleship, no following, regardless of the price, of Christ it is 'cheap grace' and thus not grace at all.

Crabtownboy,

What a GREAT statement. This is true regardless of which system of theology one holds to. Even as a Calvinist, I believe that man must make a decision to accept.

I think we see far too many Calvinists thinking "I'm saved so it doesn't matter what I do." That is far too close to the arrogance of the Old Testament Jews. Also, I think too many Arminians think of salvation as the end of the battle when it is really the beginning.

Thank you for this important corrective to both sides of the theological divide.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[JMSR]

Quote:
"Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession. … Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer
German theologian and resister"

That's stupid. That's not salvation at all.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have never accused GOD of being unfair. It is you Arminians who do when confronted with the Biblical Doctrines of GRACE. The fact is that were it not for GOD's electing some to salvation no one would be saved.

First I did not accuse you of accusing anyone of anything. Second, I am not an Arminian. As far as election we both hold to it but define it differently.

 

[Revmitchell]

I do not hold to a "neutral" position. You are correct that it is far from the truth. I think you are holding to a neutral position. You said: The ability to go one way or the other is in everyone and given at birth.

This is pretty much a position of neutrality--that man is born neither good nor bad.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Its not neutral and not sure how you came to that conclusion. Ability does not speak to neutrality only decisions.

 

[OldRegular]

Salvation through grace is given to those who make the decision to accept it through Jesus Christ.

Then why do some make such a decision while others do not? Aren't all tainted by inherited sin? Aren't all dead in trespass and sin? Is the Bible incorrect when it states:

Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[JMSR]

Isn't he just explaining that the Jews were just as much sinners as the Gentiles?

Rom 3:21 NIV - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Rom 3:22 NIV - This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 3:23 NIV - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24 NIV - and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[OldRegular]

Isn't he just explaining that the Jews were just as much sinners as the Gentiles?

And that covers everybody!

 

[JMSR]

Then why do some make such a decision while others do not?

Because they have faith.

 

[Benefactor]

Then why does one respond and another not? Did GOD give one a little more "Will to Receive GOD Than Another"? Doesn't that make GOD unfair?

This is a standard question for Calvinst to ask. It should be answer but those of us who are not Calvinist know full well any answer we give is not going to be accepted.

The reason some believe and others don't is because they don't.
The reason some don't believe and some do is because they do.
Both have the same 100 percent capacity of will to not believe or believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Because they have faith.

Why do some have faith and others don't? Is having faith good? Romans 3:12 states: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.