For By Grace Are Ye Saved

[AresMan]

But the scriptures show you have to believe to be born again or regenerated as you call it.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

This verse does not say whosoever is born of God believeth. It says whosoever believeth is born of God. Order matters in scripture.

Oh, yes it does! Look at the tenses in the Greek. I have pointed this out before:

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth [pas ho pisteuwn, present active participle nominative singular, "all the ones believing" (as a singular unit)] that Jesus is the Christ is born [gegennetai, present perfect passive indicative third-person singular, "has been born"] of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

This verse says that all who believe have been born of God! The new birth precedes and effectuates the believe in the Gospel.

You cannot be born again apart from believeing that Jesus is the Christ. So faith is absolutely required to be born again. You are justified "by faith" (Rom 5:1), you have access into God's grace "by faith" (Rom 5:2).

We are justified by faith, true. Romans 5:2 is referring to sanctifying grace after justification.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You have to receive Jesus, which is explained as believeing on his name before God gives you the power (the Holy Spirit) "to become" the sons of God. You note the phrase "to them" in verse 12? Who is that talking about? It is talking about those who received Jesus (past tense). And it is "to them" that God gave power "to become" the sons of God.

This verse is very easy to understand, but you turn it completely around to say that those who are born again receive the power to believe. Nonsense.

Let's look at the tenses:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe [tois pisteuousin, present active participle dative plural, "to the ones believing"] on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born [egennethesan, aorist passive indicative third-person plural, "which ones were born"], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who believe on His name were born NOT of blood nor of the will, BUT of God!

We will argue about this forever.

Probably.

The scriptures clearly show numerous times that you must believe to be born again, not as a result of it.

No. The scriptures clearly show numerous times that you must believe to be justified. However, "born again" similar to physical birth is something that happens passively to one and is not a voluntary choice on his part. The new birth/regeneration is something that God does to begin salvation on behalf of someone, and faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification follows.

 

[TomVols]

Since the Calvinism vs Arminianism thread was closed and the Theology thread (of which I was once a moderator) has been turned into a Cal vs Arm thread by default, I've shied away, much like the BvT forum. You can only bear the same discussion so many times until you start chasing after the wind, as Ecclesiastes said. However, it's been interesting to see some of the posts lately in here. It's been a reminder to me that:

1. The battle for the doctrine of God is alive and well, and we must proclaim the truth to counter error. Hearing posters blatently and virtually unapologetically espouse open theism and attack God's sovereignty openly is a call for us to remember that not everyone believes what the Bible teaches about God.

2. the battle for the doctrine of justification is indeed still going on. Perhaps crystalized in the controversial 1994 Evangelicals and Catholics together, and given what recently happened at IVCF, it's clear that we can no longer just claim justification by faith with no other explanation. People with far ranging definitions can conscientiously claim adherence to justificaton by faith. It seems as though now almost everyone claims justification by faith, but clearly not all are saying the same thing, be they Lutherans, Church of Christ, Reformed, Catholics, Arminians, etc.

3. We still cannot disagree without being disagreeable.

4. Rarely ever are debaters' minds changed through debate. Yet information can be presented that can be helpful to those who hear. Still, debate and discussion should remember #3.

Earnestly contend for the faith!

 

[webdog]

4. Rarely ever are debaters' minds changed through debate. Yet information can be presented that can be helpful to those who hear. Still, debate and discussion should remember #3.

I disagree. I changed a few views through debate, the "doctrines of grace" being one. Good debate will make you study and research harder to prove your point...and sometimes it proves just the opposite, as happened to me. At that point you can either be stubborn or change your view. I think most stay stubborn.

 

[OldRegular]

No. The scriptures clearly show numerous times that you must believe to be justified. However, "born again" similar to physical birth is something that happens passively to one and is not a voluntary choice on his part. The new birth/regeneration is something that God does to begin salvation on behalf of someone, and faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification follows.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[TomVols]

I disagree. I changed a few views through debate, the "doctrines of grace" being one. Good debate will make you study and research harder to prove your point...and sometimes it proves just the opposite, as happened to me. At that point you can either be stubborn or change your view. I think most stay stubborn.

Yet I contrast debate with discussion. I think what you assert happens in discussion. I think it rarely happens in "you're wrong and here's why I'm not" debate.

 

[Winman]

Originally Posted by AresMan
No. The scriptures clearly show numerous times that you must believe to be justified. However, "born again" similar to physical birth is something that happens passively to one and is not a voluntary choice on his part. The new birth/regeneration is something that God does to begin salvation on behalf of someone, and faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification follows.

Now this is where I disagree with you. In human reproduction you have the seed provided by the male, and the egg provided by the female. And you probably won't see this, but being born again is pictured in human reproduction.

First you have the seed. And as you know, many millions of seed are sown. Now to me, this represents all the many doctrines out there. The devil is a liar, he can say anything he wants. He can say one plus one is five, he can say it is ten, he can tell a million lies. He tells men many lies that promise salvation that are false. But God can only tell the truth. He is the one and only seed (or word of God) that can save you.

If you've ever watched a film of human conception you will see these many millions of male seed competing to fertilize the egg. They are all trying to penetrate the cell wall of the egg. But the egg has a choice (and this is actually true). The egg only allows one single male seed to penetrate it's cell wall. So the egg plays a definite role or action in the process. When this single male seed penetrates the cell wall of the egg, it immediately dies and fertilizes the egg. This is the very moment we are conceived. And yes, I am one of those conservatives that believes life starts at the moment of conception.

This may sound like the goofiest argument for salvation you've ever heard, but this is the very process that takes place. All of the seed provided by the male try to penetrate the egg. Just as the word of God competes with all the lies of Satan to penetrate your heart (man believes with the heart). But as in human conception, the egg provided by the female makes a choice and only allows one single male seed to penetrate and fertilize it. And when it does, life supernaturally begins. And we have the choice of believeing any of the many lies of the devil out there, or we can believe the true word of God to penetrate our heart. Or as it is shown in Revelations 3:20, we can choose to open the door.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is on the outside, but he wants to come in. He makes his intention known, he knocks on the door and calls to you. But he will not forcibly enter. Only you, of your own free will can open the door to him. But he has promised if you open the door of your heart, he will come in to you. This is a very simple but accurate picture of salvation. The Holy Spirit does not impose faith on you, the Holy Spirit calls you and convicts you. Only when you willingly receive the word of God into your heart does the Holy Spirit enter and you are born again.

And the Bible shows similarity between human birth and spiritual birth.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Notice, it must penetrate (into) and die, just as in human reproduction.

Here Jesus spoke of himself, unless he were to die on the cross he could not save us. And all seed, including human seed has to die to bring forth life.

But both the seed provided by the male, and the female egg play a role in human reproduction. The male seed tries to penetrate, but only the egg provided by the female can make the choice of which seed is allowed to penetrate. This is not my opinion, you can look it up in any High School Biology book.

Now, you may think this is a silly argument, but I think that God oftentimes reveals himself through the natural world if we have eyes to see.

Going back to Romans, it shows that you must have faith to receive God's grace.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This verse is contrasting works versus grace. It says if you worked for salvation, then you would receive salvation as a wage or debt owed you. But if you receive salvation by faith or believeing, it is then of grace.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

We are saved by God's grace, but we cannot receive God's grace except through faith. You must have faith first, before you can receive God's grace. And this is what Rom 4:16 is saying.

Even the Calvinists favorite verse says this:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, by grace we are saved, but you must have faith first to receive this grace. I believe the gift spoken of here is salvation, I fully realize that many believe it refers to faith, others grace. This verse has been a controversy for centuries.

And this is also what Hebrews 11:6 shows.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To be in God's grace means to be in God's favor. But you cannot possibly be in God's favor unless you first have faith.

 

[Winman]

1. The battle for the doctrine of God is alive and well, and we must proclaim the truth to counter error. Hearing posters blatently and virtually unapologetically espouse open theism and attack God's sovereignty openly is a call for us to remember that not everyone believes what the Bible teaches about God.

Believeing man is given a free will and choice by God is not attacking his sovereignty. I am going to show you an example from scripture where God gave man his way, even though the choice man made was against his will.

Israel was ruled by judges until the days of Samuel. When Samuel got old, all the elders came to Samuel and asked that he appoint them a king. This displeased both Samuel and the Lord.

1 Sam 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

And how did the Lord answer Samuel when he prayed about this matter?

1 Sam 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

The Lord told Samuel to do what the people wanted. And this was not God's will, they were rejecting God's will, for he had set judges over them. But he told Samuel to warn them of all the hardship a king would place upon them.

1 Sam 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

So God warned them of the ramifications of appointing a king. But the people did not listen to God's warnings. And they asked for a king anyway. Note in verse 18 God says they shall cry out because of the king they have "chosen".

1 Sam 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

So, here is a case where the children of Israel wanted a king so they could be like the nations around them. God through Samuel solemnly warned them of all the hardships this would bring on them. It was not God's will that they be ruled by a king.

But God allowed men to make a choice here.

Now, you can ridicule folks like me who believe men are given a free will and choice. But I have shown you here in scripture it is so.

 

[kyredneck]

Winman, if the Lord ever brings you to realize the helplessness/hopelessness of man on his own, in the state of his own 'free will'; you, with your great oratory and writing skills and energy, what an asset you will be to the doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace. Much as the conversion of Saul was. JMHO

Don't laugh.

Stranger things have happened.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

You make a good case [unwittingly I am sure] in your post 207 why no one would be saved were it not for the Sovereign Choice by God the Father of some to salvation in Jesus Christ and their regeneration in time by the Holy Spirit.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 322] says it best, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Winman

I realize from your past posts that you are contemptuous of the opinions of others but you would be well advised to realized that you are not the final arbiter of the understanding of Scripture and listen to what some of the old time Saints have written.

 

[Winman]

Winman, if the Lord ever brings you to realize the helplessness/hopelessness of man on his own, in the state of his own 'free will'; you, with your great oratory and writing skills and energy, what an asset you will be to the doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace. Much as the conversion of Saul was. JMHO

Don't laugh.

Stanger things have happened.

I don't come on here to be known for my oratory or writing skills. I have never thought of myself as a good writer, but I do enjoy it.

Look, I could go my way and let you believe what you will. I do not come on here to argue with anybody, I truly dislike arguing or debating with people. No, the reason I keep coming back again and again is because I sincerely believe your doctrine is error. That is why I present so much scripture. I am nobody, I have no power to change your mind or convince you. But the scriptures are the power of God. They have supernatural power. I can't possibly understand that, but that is what the scriptures say.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Notice that Jesus said "the words" I speak unto you. The scriptures are supernatural. They are spiritual, and they are alive.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God does not regenerate you to believe. You already have that ability. The Holy Spirit was sent to reprove or convict a man.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Spirit first operates from outside a man. The word of God preaches to you and convicts us of sin. And the word of God tells us to believe on Jesus. When we receive Jesus, the Holy Spirit enters our heart and we are born again. But God gives us personal free will. We can reject Jesus, or we can accept him.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

When you refuse to listen to the word of God, you are rejecting Jesus himself. It is by receiving the word of God into your heart and trusting them that you are born again.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again by the word of God, that is what the scriptures say. But you must believe God's word when you hear it to be born again.

The scriptures often describe the word of God as water.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Here the word of God is described as water. Now you will understand what Jesus meant when he said we had to be born again of water and the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Have you ever read this and wondered what the water is? Jesus is speaking of the word of God here. And notice it is mentioned first. You must first hear the word of God and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures say you first hear the word of God, then believe them, and then afterward receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Do you notice how none of these verses I've posted contradict each other? When you rightly divide the word of God they won't, the scripture will always agree with itself.

I don't think of myself as some sort of theologian. I am just a simple guy, but I truly believe the scriptures and pray always that God would give me understanding. And I believe he does.

I have just about gotten to the point of giving up. I have shown many dozens of verses of scripture to show that Calvinism is error, and they do show it error. But people simply disregard it.

I'll tell you what. When you go to bed tonight, get down on your knees and pray God to show you the truth. I have been praying that since I was a boy. And I guarantee you that if you pray that sincerely and mean it from your heart, that God will show you what is truth. But you have to be prepared to let it take you where it will, and that is not always easy or enjoyable.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

I have found these verses to be very true. If you ask God to help you understand the scriptures, he will grant that to you.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

Before you get too excited about the female egg having the power of choice I suggest you read the article Human Reproduction by Randy J. Guliuzza, P. E., M.D., in the January, 2009 issue of Acts and Facts, published by the Institute for Creation Research. It is true that only one sperm can penetrate the egg but that is by the design of God, not the ability of the egg to make a choice.

http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af0901.pdf

 

[Winman]

Winman

You make a good case [unwittingly I am sure] in your post 207 why no one would be saved were it not for the Sovereign Choice by God the Father of some to salvation in Jesus Christ and their regeneration in time by the Holy Spirit.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 322] says it best, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

Winman

I realize from your past posts that you are contemptuous of the opinions of others but you would be well advised to realized that you are not the final arbiter of the understanding of Scripture and listen to what some of the old time Saints have written.

Old Regular, thank you for that post, it was done in a good spirit. And I like you, I really do. I looked at your profile long ago and noticed you are just a couple of years younger than my Dad. My Dad passed away this year and I miss him, he was a wonderful and loving father. But I see you are getting up there in age. Hopefully you have many years ahead of you, but a person must be realistic.

And so I worry for you. I really do. I want to shake your hand in heaven. I am sure we would be great pals. We agree on politics at least. :thumbsup:

Look, if all you do is read Calvinist commentaries, you are limiting your point of view. One night I read an article about a man who came out of Calvinism. He said one of his problems was that he only exposed himself to Calvinistic teachers. So, never seeing an opposing opinion, he was convinced his doctrine was sound. But reading the scriptures he found many verses that clearly contradicted what he was taught to believe.

Here is what he said:

For many years, Calvinism was at the heart of my belief system. It was unquestionable that man could not believe the gospel. He had a latent and inborn aversion to all things spiritual, even the gracious gospel that the common people heard gladly in Jesus' day (Mark 12:37). Man, I held, was totally unable even to cry out for mercy.

The Fall had rendered him incapable of receiving its remedy. Even his best acts were filthy rags, detestable before God. What was needed was a work of Efficacious Grace - a miracle, in fact - that would remove the heart of stone and bestow saving faith.

This I deemed "sound doctrine." I elevated above the rabble of non-Calvinists all writers and theologians who championed it. They were somehow more worthy of respect. They had an inherently greater demand on my attention and belief. Clark Pinnock describes a similar attitude he developed in the course of his faith-journey:

"Certainly most of the authors I was introduced to in those early days as theologically 'sound' were staunchly Calvinistic....Theirs were the books that were sold in the Inter-Varsity bookroom I frequented. They were the ones I was told to listen to; sound theology was what they would teach me." 1

Any Christian who dissented from my soteriology was "an Arminian," regardless of whether that person subscribed to the issues of the Remonstrance (or even heard of them). As with many Calvinists, my spiritual autobiography had two distinct peaks: my conversion to Christ and my subsequent enlightenment into "sovereign grace."

This faith was highly attractive because of the men who had held it over the centuries. My spiritual pedigree contained some of the brightest lights the faith has ever known: Bunyan, Spurgeon, Edwards, Whitefield, Brainerd and the Puritans. I was in good company. Years later, however, I seriously re-examined my beloved "five points."

The main point at which I first questioned Calvinism was the nature of man in his sinful state. To question this point of the system is to question all of it. The last four points of Calvinism rest squarely upon the first, Total Inability. Once that dogma is removed, the entire superstructure crashes under its own weight.

Now, I don't agree with this particular fellow on everything. But I do agree with him about the doctrine of Total Depravity being error. I have shown several examples of unsaved men like the young rich ruler who desired to be saved. And Jesus himself confirmed that this young man understood the scriptures. The Philipian jailer sought to know God before he was saved.

I do believe we are all sinners. We cannot possibly earn our way to heaven. But man did not lose his ability to hear God and believe his words. Nowhere is that shown in scripture, in fact, the contrary is shown many times.

You need to get away from all these commentaries. I had a great pastor many years ago. He told me he did not read commentaries anymore. I asked why. He said when he came to a difficult passage that was difficult to understand he would go to a commentary, and every time he found that writer had just as much difficulty understanding the passage as he did. And trust me, my pastor knew the scriptures forward and backward.

God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us know the word of God. Pray and ask God to help you understand and you will.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Now, all that said, believe me, I do not think myself some kind of expert on the scriptures. I read every day, and practically every day I have to ask God to help me understand.

You know, I think it is difficult for God to speak to us. We are like little children to him. He has to talk to us in baby talk. If he really spoke to us like he is able, we couldn't possibly understand him. So, I think he has to come down to our level and speak to us like little children. The scriptures often call us little children.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

I have presented many scriptures for many weeks to support my views. I am getting worn out, and I know you are getting sick of me. But get rid of all those commentaries written by Calvinists. What do you expect them to say? If you get a commentary written by a Catholic, of course they will twist the scriptures to agree with their doctrine. Same with a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness. Just rely on the scriptures and the Holy Spirit to teach you.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

I did not always believe in the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace but God led me to the truth. As I have grew older I came to know myself better and I know that if it were not for the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation I would be lost.

That being said; I may question the doctrine of some Christians but not their salvation so I am sure we will meet one day!:love2:

 

[kyredneck]

I don't come on here to be known for my oratory or writing skills. I have never thought of myself as a good writer, but I do enjoy it. .

Well, you are very good at it. It's too bad that you're wrong in your drive to discredit anyone who believes in God's Sovereign Grace. Perhaps some day the truth will dawn on you.

Look, I could go my way and let you believe what you will.

Well, yes, I am going to go on and beliieve what I know the Lord has revealed to me over the years, and not you nor anyone elsle is gonna shake me from that.

I do not come on here to argue with anybody, I truly dislike arguing or debating with people.

Winman, sorry. I find that very hard to believe. IMO, it's the thrill of the debate that drives you (as is with several others on this site). I believe that's what you're really after. The rush of it all. You're not really listening to anyone. You desire only to be heard.

No, the reason I keep coming back again and again is because I sincerely believe your doctrine is error.

Do you believe folks are going to hell because of their belief in the the Calvinist doctrines? Do you believe us Calvinists are sending people to hell?

I am nobody

IMO, that's a good attitude. I feel that way also.

I have no power to change your mind or convince you. But the scriptures are the power of God. They have supernatural power. I can't possibly understand that, but that is what the scriptures say.

The scriptures teach us nothing. Without the Spirit, the scriptures are just letters on paper. The scriptures are there to give us a way to articulate what the Spirit is teaching.

 

[TomVols]

Winman, if you actually answered a substantive argument, that would be one thing. But you keep fillibustering against strawman after strawman. I appreciate you sharing Scripture, but it's not on point or germane in any way.

I sincerely believe your doctrine is error.

I agree with you...but about your doctrines :laugh:

I am nobody

....me too! Join the club. The only thing about me worth anything is what Christ has made me through His blood.

But the scriptures are the power of God.

Stay in them. The truth will set you free.


Thanks, friend!

 

[AresMan]

Now this is where I disagree with you. In human reproduction you have the seed provided by the male, and the egg provided by the female. And you probably won't see this, but being born again is pictured in human reproduction.

Good so far.

First you have the seed. And as you know, many millions of seed are sown. Now to me, this represents all the many doctrines out there. The devil is a liar, he can say anything he wants. He can say one plus one is five, he can say it is ten, he can tell a million lies. He tells men many lies that promise salvation that are false. But God can only tell the truth. He is the one and only seed (or word of God) that can save you.

If you've ever watched a film of human conception you will see these many millions of male seed competing to fertilize the egg. They are all trying to penetrate the cell wall of the egg. But the egg has a choice (and this is actually true). The egg only allows one single male seed to penetrate it's cell wall. So the egg plays a definite role or action in the process. When this single male seed penetrates the cell wall of the egg, it immediately dies and fertilizes the egg. This is the very moment we are conceived.

Nice attempt at an analogy. However, an egg itself is not a human life. A fertilized egg at conception is, as you would agree. Also, no one who is born consciously chooses with a functioning brain prior to birth whether to be born. We do not even remember our own birth and some of our early childhood. I remember vividly times when I was in a crib and sucked a bottle, but I do not remember my birth. I as a person with a developed brain with will as pertaining to a person did not choose my birth. My parents made that choice for me. I just act as one who has been born.

And yes, I am one of those conservatives that believes life starts at the moment of conception.

Amen! My wife and I are staunch pro-lifers and my wife has spent countless hours doing volunteer work for pregnancy centers to counsel pregnant women away from abortions. She has personally saved the lives of dozens of children! This is one issue that I do not take lightly.

This may sound like the goofiest argument for salvation you've ever heard, but this is the very process that takes place. All of the seed provided by the male try to penetrate the egg. Just as the word of God competes with all the lies of Satan to penetrate your heart (man believes with the heart). But as in human conception, the egg provided by the female makes a choice and only allows one single male seed to penetrate and fertilize it. And when it does, life supernaturally begins. And we have the choice of believeing any of the many lies of the devil out there, or we can believe the true word of God to penetrate our heart.

I really appreciate your analogy, I really do. However, there are some philosophical difficulties with trying to use the science of this to prove that we choose to be born out of "free will" or that it serves as an adequate analogy to prove that we choose our own regeneration.

Do you know the criteria upon which an egg "chooses" the one sperm for fertilization? If it picks one "randomly" or arbitrarily, then that analogy presents a difficulty with a "choice" to believe the Gospel simply being an arbitrary choice among many, rendering the chooser as a victim of statistics rather than being accountable for volition. If it always picks "the right one," then the analogy presents a difficulty when comparing to people who do not all believe the Gospel.

 

[AresMan]

Or as it is shown in Revelations 3:20, we can choose to open the door.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is on the outside, but he wants to come in. He makes his intention known, he knocks on the door and calls to you. But he will not forcibly enter. Only you, of your own free will can open the door to him. But he has promised if you open the door of your heart, he will come in to you. This is a very simple but accurate picture of salvation.

This verse is not talking about salvation. It is talking about a church that, as a whole, has not followed Jesus.

The Holy Spirit does not impose faith on you, the Holy Spirit calls you and convicts you. Only when you willingly receive the word of God into your heart does the Holy Spirit enter and you are born again.

According to Romans 12:3-6, all believers in the body of Christ have had God give them the measure of faith.
Philippians 1:29 shows that God gives both Gospel faith and trials.
If repentance is the flip side of faith (or the other side of the same coin), then God could give faith by virtue of Him also giving repentance.
God gives repentance to Israel (Acts 5:31).
God gives repentance to the Gentiles (Acts 11:18).
God gives people repentance so that they acknowledge the truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

I would not call the work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating one to the truth "imposing" faith. The Holy Spirit raises one to spiritual life and gives him faith. When one sees the truth of the Gospel all he can do is love the God Who saves him. It is not "forced," "imposed," or other pejoratives. It is given, and those who receive it can only but rejoice in it. Otherwise, all they would ever freely will to do would be to reject the Gospel.

And the Bible shows similarity between human birth and spiritual birth.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Notice, it must penetrate (into) and die, just as in human reproduction.

Here Jesus spoke of himself, unless he were to die on the cross he could not save us. And all seed, including human seed has to die to bring forth life.

Good.

But both the seed provided by the male, and the female egg play a role in human reproduction. The male seed tries to penetrate, but only the egg provided by the female can make the choice of which seed is allowed to penetrate. This is not my opinion, you can look it up in any High School Biology book.

But this is still not the same as a person choosing out of the will of a human mind to accept the Gospel. Since each sperm cell and each egg cell are living organisms, this hardly proves the case of any individual person "choosing" his own birth.

Now, you may think this is a silly argument, but I think that God oftentimes reveals himself through the natural world if we have eyes to see.

True, and it is an interesting discussion. I truly appreciate your analogy. However, it fails to prove your point.

Going back to Romans, it shows that you must have faith to receive God's grace.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This verse is contrasting works versus grace. It says if you worked for salvation, then you would receive salvation as a wage or debt owed you. But if you receive salvation by faith or believeing [sic], it is then of grace.

True. I know that justification and sanctification are through faith and not through works. We trust God for our justification and we even trust God for our sanctification. I am aware of the dichotomy and the importance of it. However, this still does not prove that Gospel faith actually comes autonomously from the sinner itself. Other verses (such as ones that I posted above) show where this faith comes from.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

We are saved by God's grace, but we cannot receive God's grace except through faith.

I agree with this. God's grace for salvation is never without faith. One must have faith to be justified.

You must have faith first, before you can receive God's grace. And this is what Rom 4:16 is saying.

Not necessarily. I believe that the faith is also part of God's grace. Grace being unmerited favor.

Even the Calvinists favorite verse says this:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, by grace we are saved, but you must have faith first to receive this grace. I believe the gift spoken of here is salvation, I fully realize that many believe it refers to faith, others grace. This verse has been a controversy for centuries.

Here, grace is feminine, saved is masculine, and faith is feminine. However, that is neuter. For the construct, I would think that the whole clause "by grace are ye saved through faith" is the antecedent of that. All of this is "not of yourselves." All of this is the gift of God.

And this is also what Hebrews 11:6 shows.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To be in God's grace means to be in God's favor. But you cannot possibly be in God's favor unless you first have faith.

If you have to have faith to please God, then what about those "in the flesh" (the unsaved)?

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh [see Ephesians 2:1-7, Romans 3:10-12, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 John 2:11]; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit [see Ephesians 2:8-13, Ephesians 5:8-9, 1 Corinthians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 4:6-7, Colossians 1:12-14, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 John 2:10].
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God [see Hebrews 11:6].
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you [this proves that those "in the flesh" are unsaved and those "in the Spirit" are saved]. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:9 proves that those "in the flesh" are unsaved, and those "in the spirit" are saved, because those "in the spirit" are indwelt by the Spirit. If one is not "in the spirit" he is "in the flesh" as these verse provide no room outside this dichotomy. Now, given both these truths those who are "in the flesh" cannot please God.

If one cannot please God without faith, and if one cannot please God while "in the flesh," and if one must have the Spirit indwelling to be "in the spirit" and be able to please God, then it can only follow that faith to please God must come from God Himself.

God gives faith (Romans 12:3-6; Philippians 1:29).
God gives repentance (Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:15).
God saves by regeneration (Titus 3:5-7).
God regenerates by His Word (1 Corinthians 4:15; 1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18).
Regeneration (the new birth) precedes faith (John 1:12-13; 1 John 5:1).
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from God's Word (Romans 10:17).

When all here is said and done, here is my ordo salutis:
1. Regeneration (the new birth)
2. Faith
3. Justification
4. Sanctification
5. Glorification

 

[AresMan]

Believeing man is given a free will and choice by God is not attacking his sovereignty.

It depends upon what you mean by "free." If you believe that man's will is free even from God's providence and perfect will and that God cannot even know what future choices people will make as the open theists believe, then I would say that it definitely attacks God's sovereignty. If you believe that man's will is not free from God's knowledge and cannot stay God's hand and act against God's providence and perfect will, then I would agree.

I am going to show you an example from scripture where God gave man his way, even though the choice man made was against his will.

Israel was ruled by judges until the days of Samuel. When Samuel got old, all the elders came to Samuel and asked that he appoint them a king. This displeased both Samuel and the Lord.

1 Sam 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

And how did the Lord answer Samuel when he prayed about this matter?

1 Sam 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

The Lord told Samuel to do what the people wanted. And this was not God's will, they were rejecting God's will, for he had set judges over them. But he told Samuel to warn them of all the hardship a king would place upon them.

This is no way proves that man's will is "free" in the libertarian sense. Showing people making evil choices that displease God does not prove libertarian free will. It proves the people make choices against God's moral will based upon their sin nature.

Do you believe that God did not know that the people would reject Him as leader and want a human king? God knew that Israel would desire a king and He even dictated the requirements for one (Deuteronomy 17:14-20). In His eternal plan, Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) would be born of kingly lineage (Matthew 1:1; Isaiah 9:6-7), be the "King of the Jews" (John 19:19) and "King of kings" (Revelation 17:14).

All this proves compatibilist free will (rather than libertarian free will) that the volitional choices of depraved people are also God's perfect plan to do what He desires.

So, here is a case where the children of Israel wanted a king so they could be like the nations around them. God through Samuel solemnly warned them of all the hardships this would bring on them. It was not God's will that they be ruled by a king.

But God allowed men to make a choice here.

Yup, and as predicted they made a bad choice that was also part of God's perfect plan.

Now, you can ridicule folks like me who believe men are given a free will and choice. But I have shown you here in scripture it is so.

This example in no way proves your understanding of "free will." It only shows depraved people making depraved choices that are also compatibilistically part of God's perfect plan.

Where does the Bible teach libertarian free will that all people possess innate within themselves the ability to be righteous and pleasing to God or unrighteous and displeasing to God? All I see is mankind, by default, are filthy, depraved, and hate God. The ones who are the exceptions are those whom God has pulled out of the miry clay, saved them, and made them heirs as sons. Without God's intervening love, we are nothing but puke.

 

[AresMan]

I don't come on here to be known for my oratory or writing skills. I have never thought of myself as a good writer, but I do enjoy it.

You are a very thorough writer and you really challenge me and make me think. I enjoy this discussion, and I enjoy having to study the Scriptures even more.

Look, I could go my way and let you believe what you will. I do not come on here to argue with anybody, I truly dislike arguing or debating with people. No, the reason I keep coming back again and again is because I sincerely believe your doctrine is error. That is why I present so much scripture. I am nobody, I have no power to change your mind or convince you. But the scriptures are the power of God. They have supernatural power. I can't possibly understand that, but that is what the scriptures say.

I understand your zeal, and I argued the way you did years ago. However, if you understand that the Scriptures indeed do have power in the hand of the Holy Spirit, then you would have to affirm the power of the Holy Spirit over the hearts of people.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Notice that Jesus said "the words" I speak unto you. The scriptures are supernatural. They are spiritual, and they are alive.

But, if your understanding of libertarian free will is true, then the scriptures really do not have power. They are ineffective of themselves. Even the Holy Spirit is ineffective of Himself. If the words are spirit and life, and if this Spirit quickens, then the Holy Spirit has the power through His Word to change people effectually according as He desires. According to your thinking, man has this ultimate power and the word and the spirit do not really have true effectual power and in of themselves.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If the Word of God is alive and powerful, why is it ineffective to do anything to anyone without them "allowing" it with their "autonomous" will?

God does not regenerate you to believe.

Yes He does. See post #217.

You already have that ability.

You haven't proved that; you only assume it. See post #217.

The Holy Spirit was sent to reprove or convict a man.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Spirit first operates from outside a man. The word of God preaches to you and convicts us of sin. And the word of God tells us to believe on Jesus. When we receive Jesus, the Holy Spirit enters our heart and we are born again. But God gives us personal free will. We can reject Jesus, or we can accept him.

Yes, it is true that we believe the Gospel to be justified.

Can you answer these questions?:

1. Is it necessary for the Holy Spirit to work in one's heart before he can believe the Gospel?
2. If yes, then what is the capacity of this work and how effectual is it?
3. If the Holy Spirit knows the hearts of people more than they do, how is He not able to give enough internal light sufficient to guarantee a positive result?
4. When one is converted, how much credit goes to the work of the Holy Spirit and how much goes to the autonomous will of the person?
5. Of the two factors necessary for conversion--the work of the Holy Spirit and the autonomous free will of man--which one is the hinge that drove the conversion?

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

When you refuse to listen to the word of God, you are rejecting Jesus himself. It is by receiving the word of God into your heart and trusting them that you are born again.

Of course people reject Jesus. Everyone does this by default (Romans 3:10-12). Without the Holy Spirit everyone does this of their own "free will." Everyone "freely chooses" out of complete and utter volition according to desires of their sin nature to reject the Gospel. The work of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God is necessary to change this. Now, the question is: is the work of the Holy Spirit effectual to bring about conversion?

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again by the word of God, that is what the scriptures say. But you must believe God's word when you hear it to be born again.

Yes, this and other scriptures (as I have shown in post #217) say that God regenerates people through His Word. God rebirths people through His Word. This is something that God does. The Holy Spirit uses His word to regenerate people. This regeneration (the new birth [and people do not choose to be born]) results in saving faith. Faith is the pecuniary grounds for justification.

The scriptures often describe the word of God as water.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Here the word of God is described as water. Now you will understand what Jesus meant when he said we had to be born again of water and the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Nice verses to show that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God are all that God "needs" by His will to regenerate people. Regeneration results in faith and justification.

Have you ever read this and wondered what the water is? Jesus is speaking of the word of God here. And notice it is mentioned first.

And notice that several Scriptures talk about us being "born again" by the Word of God. Some of them do not even mention the faith. God rebirths us "of His own will" by His Word (James 1:18).

You must first hear the word of God and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The scriptures say you first hear the word of God, then believe them, and then afterward receive the Spirit.

Here I believe that being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is not the same as being regenerated.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Do you notice how none of these verses I've posted contradict each other? When you rightly divide the word of God they won't, the scripture will always agree with itself.

Yup.

1. Regeneration (God rebirths people by the Spirit and the Word)
2. Faith
3. Justification
4. Spirit sealing

I don't think of myself as some sort of theologian. I am just a simple guy, but I truly believe the scriptures and pray always that God would give me understanding. And I believe he does.

I pray that God gives us all more understanding.

I have just about gotten to the point of giving up. I have shown many dozens of verses of scripture to show that Calvinism is error, and they do show it error. But people simply disregard it.

No they don't. You are likely misunderstanding some parts of it.

 

[TomVols]

And yes, I am one of those conservatives that believes life starts at the moment of conception.

My belief in this isn't called being conservative. It's being Christian....it's called having a brain. Don't get me started on the anti-life crowd (oh, they can call us anti-choice, but since we're pro-life, we can't call them what they really are?)