Where does believing faith come from part 2

[OldRegular]

I think that some people have a problem with the simple things in life; simple verses such as:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think that they would rather edit that entire verse as to their brand of Calvinism, and that really is too bad.

Yes they do, such as:

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:6. that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 8:29, 30
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Ephesians 2:4-8
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[AresMan]

I always believed that "whosoever" in John 3:16 meant just that, "whosoever".

It does. Now, what does "whosoever" really mean?

That means any person at any time.

Umm. No. That is your assumption based upon your understanding of what one English word means. Whosoever does not have some intrinsic meaning alone apart from its modifier. Whosoever believeth is the English phrase that translates pas ho pisteuwn or "all the ones believing."

You are falsely assuming that the English word whosoever implies an intrinsic ability in every individual human being. This is not the case (at least in this verse). The word whosoever translates the word pas ("all"), but the word has a modifier--a qualifier--that determines its scope. The modifier is ho pisteuwn ("the ones believing").

The verse says that the reason for the giving of the Son is so that all the believing ones would be saved.

Joh 3:16 ουτως ("in this manner") γαρ ("therefore") ηγαπησεν ("loved") ο θεος ("God") τον κοσμον ("the world") ωστε ("so that") τον υιον ("the son") αυτου ("of the same" or "his") τον μονογενη ("the one of a kind") εδωκεν ("he gave") ινα ("for the purpose or result that") πας ("all") ο πιστευων ("the ones believing") εις ("into") αυτον ("the same" or "him") μη ("not") αποληται ("will perish") αλλ ("but rather") εχη ("have" or "hold") ζωην ("life") αιωνιον ("age-long" or "everlasting" or "eternal")

It says nothing either way about the ability of every individual human being to be one of "all the believing ones." Taking your understanding of an English word (whosoever) and taking your assumptions of it back into the text is called eisegesis.

If you want a verse to prove ability, you have to look elsewhere.

But Calvinism attempts to change the definition of very simply understood words. They have to.

Ummm. No. It is the non-"Calvinists" that attempt to eisegete based upon tradition and inference of the implications of certain English words to insert "universal ability" into the text where it does not even mention such a thing at all.

Whenever I hear any person or preacher say a word does not really mean what it says, I quit listening to that person.

Well, you can rest assured that I am not saying that any word in John 3:16 does not really mean what it says. I am clarifying the exact meaning of each word in the Greek and how it is reflected in English translation.

 

[AresMan]

I think that some people have a problem with the simple things in life; simple verses such as:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I have no problem with this simple verse. It simply says that God loved the world in this manner--that He gave His unique Son--for the purpose that all the ones believing in him will not perish but rather have eternal life.

Some people here are trying to complicate the verse by injecting other doctrine and assumptions into words in the verse that do not exist in the Greek (or even in the English). They are using their tradition and their understanding of certain English words in certain translations and injecting these assumptions back into the text, when the text says nothing about what they are trying to say. They are adding to the simplicity of the verse.

I think that they would rather edit that entire verse as to their brand of Calvinism, and that really is too bad.

I did not edit it. I exegeted it. I showed every Greek word and a valid English translation.

 

[webdog]

The above paragraph shows the roll of God in the perseverance of the believer, in effect the preservation of the believer: This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will. You really need to read more carefully webdog.

I did read it quite carefully...it is a mumbled mess that redefines what to persevere means. In addition, it stems from "immutability of the decree of election", whatever that means. When you start with the wrong presupposition, you reach a wrong conclusion.

Incidentally I don't know that anyone claims the London Confession of Faith is inspired, I assume you are talking about inspiration by God. However, I would say that it is much more inspired than your writing. As in the case of others on this Forum you are not an inerrant interpreter of Scripture.

The same Holy Spirit indwells me, so I'm not going to put anyone on a pedestal. Their writing is no more inspired than mine, and to claim such is borderline idolatry.

 

[webdog]

it says nothing either way about the ability of every individual human being to be one of "all the believing ones." Taking your understanding of an English word (whosoever) and taking your assumptions of it back into the text is called eisegesis.

Kind of like what you do with "world" in the same verse?

 

[OldRegular]

The same Holy Spirit indwells me, so I'm not going to put anyone on a pedestal.

Obviously everyone does not listen well to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Their writing is no more inspired than mine, and to claim such is borderline idolatry.

That is a matter of opinion webdog and has nothing to do with idolatry.

 

[AresMan]

Kind of like what you do with "world" in the same verse?

What did I do with "world" in that verse? I didn't really do anything with it.

 

[webdog]

Obviously everyone does not listen well to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Apparently by reading that perseverance definition.

 

[webdog]

What did I do with "world" in that verse? I didn't really do anything with it.

In that post you are correct. I have read where "world" doesn't really mean all those in the world.

 

[AresMan]

In that post you are correct. I have read where "world" doesn't really mean all those in the world.

Regardless of what "world" means in John 3:16 (and it had more than one context), the verse says that God expressed His love for "the world" in this manner--that He gave His unique Son--for the purpose that (or with the result that) all the ones believing into him will not perish, but rather have unending life.

 

[DHK]

It does. Now, what does "whosoever" really mean?

By your mumbo-jumbo; your incorrect eisegesis; your inability to correctly rightly divide the word of truth, you apparently don't know.

What does "whosoever" really mean? Let the Scripture speak for itself:

Matthew 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Of course there are scores more; these are just a few that have the exact word "whosoever." Such a simple statement as: He that has the son has life; he that has not the son hath not life," is a straightforward statement in itself. How does one get life?


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

How easy it is. Why is it that certain on the board want to complicate such a simple message?



"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

 

[webdog]

Regardless of what "world" means in John 3:16 (and it had more than one context), the verse says that God expressed His love for "the world" in this manner--that He gave His unique Son--for the purpose that (or with the result that) all the ones believing into him will not perish, but rather have unending life.

The meaning of world is quite important, as God so loved the world that whosoever (of the world, whom God loves) believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. From this passage we see that God loves the world (not just the elect), He gave His Son for the world whom He loves (not just the elect) and whosoever of this world (whom He loves and gave His Son) believes will not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[OldRegular]

Can any Freewillers on the Board explain the following passages of Scripture.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Havingpredestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 17:11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[webdog]

Been there, done that. If you haven't learned by now, you won't by further stating the same things over and over again.

 

[DHK]

He has chosen us according to his foreknowledge.

He draws us by His Holy Spirit.

 

[Johnv]

Askign where believing comes from to the the issue of freewill? Did I miss something?

But I can answer the question asked in post# 133: God does't exist in a timeline like we do.

 

[DHK]

How did we get from the biblcal appropriateness of para-church ministries to the the issue of freewill? Did I miss something?

I joined this conversation late John but noted the title of the thread:

Where does believing faith come from part 2

I don't see from the title what it has to do with para-church ministries.

 

[Johnv]

Sorry, I typed the info wrong, and have since gone back and edited it.

 

[TomVols]

I think that some people have a problem with the simple things in life; simple verses such as:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think that they would rather edit that entire verse as to their brand of Calvinism, and that really is too bad.

Or worse yet, explain this away, as do many Arminians. I've yet to meet a Calvinist who does not believe the total veracity of this verse. I've met surprisingly many Arminians who add qualifiers.

Does John 3:17 mean the whole world will be saved? Otherwise, you add qualifiers to "world".

Several people like to claim that foreknowledge is the causative agent. But this can't be. If I know that something is going to happen, does that make it happen? Either God is sovereign or man is in control of his own salvation. Sorry...I'll take the Bible and its teaching that salvation is from God alone and reject that which stands in opposition.

Been there, done that. If you haven't learned by now, you won't by further stating the same things over and over again.

Yeah, you're right. See...I've made two posts here. Now I don't have to come back til 2011 :laugh: Now I think I'll go discuss something rational...like bible version debates :laugh:

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[OldRegular]

He has chosen us according to his foreknowledge.

I can't argue with that but you obviously don't know what is meant by the foreknowledge of God. According to you Freewillers God has to wait while you shuffle your feet trying to decide how you will choose before He can elect you or non-elect you.