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Foreknowledge is a pretty basic word, even to children.
All I did was show John 3:16 in the Greek with an English rendering for each word and phrase.
It means "the one [who..]" or "all the ones [who...]" depending upon whether it is singular or plural.
Sure.
Sure.
No argument.
Who is "complicating"? All I am trying to do is to exegete the text to show that neither the English word whosoever nor the Greek behind it have any intrinsic denotation or connotation of a global ability. It is the ones who insist that "whosoever X" implies that the words themselves dictate a universal ability that are complicating the meaning of the text.
Amen!
Where does the Bible ever say that election is based upon God foreknowing the faith of people? It says nothing of the kind. It always has people as the object, not actions.
I disagree. The Bible is replete about God's foreknowledge, closely related to the omniscience of God. David, in Psalm 139 speaks of God's thoughts being too numerous for him. God knows the number of hairs on our heads--each head, each person that ever lived. He knew it before the foundation of the world. It is a fact given to show man how much he cares for them. These are facts, not personal relationships, but facts that teach that God loves.
This is just man's reasoning. Foreknowledge speaks directly to what God knew beforehand. He is omniscient. He knows all things. He knows the end before it begins. And thus his foreknowledge. He knows who will reject and who will receive Christ. But it is still man's choice to trust Christ. He doesn't force salvation on anyone.
Tone down the rhetoric please. There is no need for name-calling.
What contradictory statements:
The only person that is a new creation in Jesus Christ, is that person who has freely come to him of his own free will and chosen to put his trust in Him.
If he is already regenerated, as in above, then he is already saved for he has already believed. A person is saved/regenerated only once. He is not born again and again and again.
He knew who would trust Him. We all had the choice to trust or reject. There is no excuse for rejecting Christ. We have the choice. God knows what choice we will make.
Do you believe man can accept or reject God's offer of Salvation? If so that makes you a Freewiller! Free will is a term proudly used by those who are called Arminians as you proudly indicate in the following:
Did you read what I said?
I did not deny that God foreknows any events or actions of people. I said that election in the Bible is always based upon God foreknowing people.AresMan said:
And yet I provided Scriptures to back up my points. Did you read them to see what I was talking about? You are so quick and knee-jerk ready to jump the gun on anything with which you do not agree that you sometimes miss what is actually stated.
Yes, but the foreknowledge of election always has people as the direct objects. The Bible never describes election as God foreknowing the faith of people. It says that God foreknew people. To know someone is to have some kind of relationship with him. To foreknow someone is to do this beforehand.
True, but you are assuming this people "receiving Christ" is something that the elect do autonomously, and that God's election is a logical response to this. The Bible never says what you assume.
Sure it is. It is just that anyone given the choice by their own will always rejects Him. It is only through the "golden chain of redemption" that anyone actually comes to Him (Rom 8:28-30).
If you mean that He coerces people to do something unwillingly, then no. If you mean that He graciously regenerates them and gives them a new heart so that they love Him as children love and depend upon their parents, then yes.
If you don't completely understand the New Birth, then you better go to John chapter one.
That is just semantics. The word election is simply another word for choosing. God chooses birds as much as he does people. Not a bird falls to the ground without his knowledge.
Proof texts don't make a system of semantics or man-made theology correct.
This is either your definition or your opinion. I do not find it in the Bible. I do not find "the foreknowledge of election" but rather simply "foreknowledge." God's foreknowledge as in God's omniscience. I see no reason to limit God's foreknowledge to relationships. That is your limitation on God. God has no such limitations.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The Holy Spirit draws; the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Man is not forced to believe. He chooses to believe of his own free will. But we do not deny the work of the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration and salvation are one and the same. The one does not precede the other.
Exactly. The were born is past perfect tense, passive voice. In other words, it means "which have been born." This tense precedes the present active participle "believe" or "are believing."
I see nothing in the Bible about God "choosing" birds. There is a difference between God's "passive" foreknowing of all events and God's "active" foreknowing of His people. There are sure a lot of strong texts in the Bible about God's electing/choosing people, having special love for people, giving His life for His sheep, knowing His sheep as the Son and Father know each other, predestining His chosen people for sanctification, and so on. Are you telling me that you are just going to reduce all these strong passages and the intimate language and active verbs of God on behalf of His people into nothing but His "passive" knowledge of the events of nature and how they simply unfold?! God's election is just nothing more than His "electing birds" in the simple manner of Him just knowing what they will do autonomously?!
And merely wishing things to go away does not make them go away. Did you even read the verses? They proved exactly what I was talking about knowing meaning for those points. You're not even going to try to deal with them?
You tell me what it means to know people. You tell me what it means to foreknow people. You tell me what Mat 1:25, Mat 7:23, and Joh 10:14-15 mean by the word know.
God's foreknowledge of events are based upon whether He directly or indirectly decrees for them to come to pass. God's foreknowing of people is exactly that He fore-relationshipped them. How can it make any other sense? Nowhere does the Bible ever say that His "election according to foreknowledge" is based upon "foreseen faith." That is your assumption because that is what you want to be true. The Bible never states this. However, in the Greek and in English, knowing/foreknowing people implies some kind of relationship.
You assume that. However, Rom 3:10-12, Rom 8:5-9, 1 Cor 2:14, and Phi 1:29, among others show that man needs God to give him faith; otherwise, by his sin nature will always reject God.
You are assuming and reading into Scripture that belief in the Gospel is something that any non-regenerate, sin-cursed, depraved, non-righteous, natural man can do. Also, the "is born... of God" precedes according to tense the "believe."
Yup. He helkuo's, which is an effectual action (Joh 6:43). In fact, something is not called "drawn" unless it is successful. If the action is not successful, you would say "tried to draw" or "could not draw" (Joh 21:6).
You assume that Gospel faith comes from "one's own free will." Well, it does come from a "freed" will. The natural man chooses of his own free will to reject Christ (all the time). Those who have been freed from sin choose Christ of their own free will, because their will has been freed.
Regeneration is part of salvation, just as justification, sanctification, and glorification are part of salvation. We just like to use "salvation" as a synonym for justification.
That text is not saying what you are trying to make it say, and it does not "logically" precede belief, in fact it defies any such logic. One that passes from spiritual death to spiritual life is saved from death. This occurring prior to faith in Christ is not the logical progression.