Where were saints before Jesus died on the cross?

[Dr. Bob]

Elect dead prior to the cross were in Paradise, NOT in what we glibly call "heaven", but certainly heaven-like.

It is where Jesus went when He died. (Today you shall be with Me in Paradise). BTW, on Easter Sunday daybreak He told Mary He had NOT BEEN TO HEAVEN. Interesting.

He then led those captive to Heaven, ascending on high with them in His train. (Ephesians gives a graphic pix)

Today? We have a MORE BLESSED reward. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This was radical and new as Paul shared it with the early church in Greece.

 

[Soulman]

There were a number of people that said just that on the other thread. I don't remember the name of the thread right now, maybe someone else will. Heaven and Paradise are one in the same.

Sorry, but no they are not the same.Paradise is in the earth and hell as we now have it is seperated by a gulf. Eventually death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. Re.20:13-14

God could not allow o.t. saints into heaven because although their sins were covered, they were not paid for until Christ went to the cross. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

 

[webdog]

Sorry, but no they are not the same.Paradise is in the earth and hell as we now have it is seperated by a gulf. Eventually death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. Re.20:13-14

God could not allow o.t. saints into heaven because although their sins were covered, they were not paid for until Christ went to the cross. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

I disagree as I do not believe there is a timeline for an omnitemporal God to follow. Paradise being in earth takes much speculation and reading into something that I do not believe should be done. Since Christ is God, and He is one with the Father, wherever Christ went when He died, that is Heaven.

 

[Soulman]

I disagree as I do not believe there is a timeline for an omnitemporal God to follow. Paradise being in earth takes much speculation and reading into something that I do not believe should be done. Since Christ is God, and He is one with the Father, wherever Christ went when He died, that is Heaven.

You have no biblical basis for your statement that I can find.

 

[webdog]

You have no biblical basis for your statement that I can find.

What biblical basis do you need to show that God is omipresent / omnitemporal? If God is not either, He is not God. I have presented numerous Scripture showing Heaven is referred to as paradise. There is no such Scripture stating paradise is anything other than Heaven...this is eisegeted into a handful of texts to prove otherwise. I'm sorry, but your view really has no biblical basis.

 

[Benefactor]

I guess I have come to this question many times and never put a great deal of thought into it, but here we go...

I was reading through the Gospel of Mathew and I got to the end of chapter 27

27:52 "The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised."

This then for some reason made me think and connect with...

John 12:32 " And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Maybe this is a false connection, but it seems as if He is talking about lifting up all the saints with his death here in this passage of John..

So My question is what does the bible teach us about those who had been asleep before the death of Christ, are they literally dead and in a state of hibernation if you will until this point in which Christ has lifted them up to heaven as their substitution?

The tricky part of all of this is where the final judgment comes into play, do people in heaven get pulled out of heaven in the future to be judged for good deeds?

I understand that looking at it through our finite minds causes us to not fully understand but it is still a good time trying to think this through.

The place where Abraham was then and now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[zrs6v4]

There is a lot to comment on, although thanks for the variety of viewpoints.

#1 I dont think certain scriptures used are to give a location of heaven or hell, hence center of earth.

#2 The absent from the body = present with the lord statement holds true no matter if in heaven or in hell or in paradise. where isnt God? I do think the key is that as believers when we die we will be with God in heaven today.

#3 It does make sense that paradise was a holding place and that heaven is the final place, but it is a mystery as to how the afterlife functions. I do respect and consider many views here.

#4 Webdog- I have tried to ponder the omnitemporal statement you have made in many other posts namely regarding predestination and this. I will hand it to you that it is a deep subject and very interesting. You should start a specific thread on it so that it can be taken deeper.

 

[webdog]

#4 Webdog- I have tried to ponder the omnitemporal statement you have made in many other posts namely regarding predestination and this. I will hand it to you that it is a deep subject and very interesting. You should start a specific thread on it so that it can be taken deeper.

I have to discuss it in short bursts...it makes my head hurt to ponder it beyond that point
I think I did try once, and it was dismissed and I was labeled a methodist :laugh: I think many theological differences could be cleared up by realizing God is capable, and does exist yesterday, today and tomorrow all at once. All "logical" orders we need and used are thrown out the window in that model.

 

[zrs6v4]

I have to discuss it in short bursts...it makes my head hurt to ponder it beyond that point
I think I did try once, and it was dismissed and I was labeled a methodist :laugh: I think many theological differences could be cleared up by realizing God is capable, and does exist yesterday, today and tomorrow all at once. All "logical" orders we need and used are thrown out the window in that model.

hah, oh ok... I understand and dont want to comment jus:tongue3:t to be safe then...

 

[Allan]

What biblical basis do you need to show that God is omipresent / omnitemporal? If God is not either, He is not God. I have presented numerous Scripture showing Heaven is referred to as paradise. There is no such Scripture stating paradise is anything other than Heaven...this is eisegeted into a handful of texts to prove otherwise. I'm sorry, but your view really has no biblical basis.

Acutally web, it isn't eisegeted at all. The very words themselves, Hades and Sheol, in which scripture uses to depict the abode of the dead and which always refers to both places (the spiritual and physical) at once, with emphasis on the spiritual. IOW - neither are ever used to speak only of one place (ie . the grave). They are always described as 'decending' and are always understood as the 'abode of the dead'. (all of these in conjuction with the saints are pre-resurrection as you will not see these terms used again relating to the saints).
This is seen here in the NET.bible

SHEOL [ISBE]
SHEOL - she'-ol (she'ol):
1. The Name

2. The Abode of the Dead

(1) Not a State of Unconsciousness

(2) Not Removed from God's Jurisdiction

(3) Relation to Immortality

3. Post-canonical Period

1. The Name:

This word is often translated in the King James Version "grave" (e.g. Gen 37:35; 1 Sam 2:6; Job 7:9; 14:13; Ps 6:5; 49:14; Isa 14:11, etc.) or "hell" (e.g. Dt 32:22; Ps 9:17; 18:5; Isa 14:9; Am 9:2, etc.); in 3 places by "pit" (Nu 16:30,33; Job 17:16). It means really the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek Haides, by which word it is translated in Septuagint. The English Revisers have acted somewhat inconsistently in leaving "grave" or "pit" in the historical books and putting "Sheol" in the margin, while substituting "Sheol" in the poetical writings, and putting "grave" in the margin ("hell" is retained in Isa 14). Compare their "Preface." The American Revisers more properly use "Sheol" throughout. The etymology of the word is uncertain. A favorite derivation is from sha'al, "to ask" (compare Prov 1:12; 27:20; 30:15,16; Isa 5:14; Hab 2:5); others prefer the sha'al, "to be hollow." The Babylonians are said to have a similar word Sualu, though this is questioned by some.

....

See ESCHATOLOGY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.

(3) Relation to Immortality.

To apprehend fully the Old Testament conception of Sheol one must view it in its relation to the idea of death as something unnatural and abnormal for man; a result of sin. The believer's hope for the future, so far as this had place, was not prolonged existence in Sheol, but deliverance from it and restoration to new life in God's presence (Job 14:13-15; 19:25-27; Ps 16:10,11; 17:15; 49:15; 73:24-26; see IMMORTALITY; ESCHATOLOGY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; RESURRECTION). Dr. Charles probably goes too far in thinking of Sheol in Psalms 49 and 73 as "the future abode of the wicked only; heaven as that of the righteous" (op. cit., 74); but different destinies are clearly indicated.
3. Post-canonical Period:

There is no doubt, at all events, that in the postcanonical Jewish literature (the Apocrypha and apocalyptic writings) a very considerable development is manifest in the idea of Sheol. Distinction between good and bad in Israel is emphasized; Sheol becomes for certain classes an intermediate state between death and resurrection; for the wicked and for Gentiles it is nearly a synonym for Gehenna (hell). For the various views, with relevant literature on the whole subject, see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; also DEATH; HADES; HELL, etc.

There is more in your sourse but this just epitomizes what I have been saying.

Remember there are Hebrew words, used frequently in scripture, to mean the grave, and tomb, etc.. The word sheol has an historical meaning that is acknowledged by scholars and I have presented you evidence of it. It does mean the grave but not ONLY the grave as it's emphasis is toward the spiritual and thus both are inferred simultaneously but never meaning one without the other. It is of interest to note that David's Psalm chapter 16:10 is not tranlated as grave but as hell/sheol or the spiritual 'abode of the dead'.

And here are other posts of mine going into more detail
such as here
...and here
...and here

Among many other posts farther back than I want to look

All that to simply state - it isn't eisegetical at all but exegetical and is part of it's historically understood view.