Altar Calls?

[Johnv]

I hate to admit it but I agree with JohnV

It's okay, I won't tell anyone :wavey:

 

[Salty]

It's okay, I won't tell anyone :wavey:

Ok, but if you do, you have to buy me a bud - light:laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

By definition, if something is not in the Bible, it is 'unscriptural'. If there were scripture that mentioned an 'altar call', there would be no debate, would there? Thus those who say it is unscriptural are by default correct; and it now falls upon those questioned to prove that their techniques are Christ-honoring.

Not that it matters, because you may do whatever you like in your own church...

Actually, I was taught that if something is not in the Bible it is "extra-Biblical," not "unscriptural" or "unbiblical." The "un-" prefix supposes something to be the opposite, as in "unnecessary," or "unmentionable." Something not in the Bible may or may not be against the Bible.

 

[Edward 1689er]

Actually, I was taught that if something is not in the Bible it is "extra-Biblical," not "scriptural" or "unbiblical." The "un-" prefix supposes something to be the opposite, as in "unnecessary," or "unmentionable." Something not in the Bible may or may not be against the Bible.

Certainly the recent invention of the so-called "altar call" element of worship is "extra-biblical." It is not in the Bible. It is also unbiblical if one believes that the elements of worship must be explicitly derived from the Bible. This is the root of this whole debate. Most folks think we can invent new elements of worship based upon human wisdom, tradition, or what we think is useful. Others believe that we must follow the Bible alone in our elements of worship (nothing more, nothing less, nothing else).

 

[Tom Butler]

The invitation is not the problem with false conversions and bloated membership rolls. Even someone who comes down the isle of even seeks out the pastor can do the exact same thing. We are blaming the wrong thing.


Now it appears that any attempt to make an emotional appeal is being called manipulation. I reject that it is false. Jesus used very strong language in His appeals to people.

The church needs to be looking to see evidence of a real conversion before we add them to our membership roles. That is where the problem and mistake lies.

Just in case I wasn't clear, let me say again that it is not only okay, but it is also necessary to call men to repentance and faith as a gospel imperative. My concern is the content of the invitation. If our method is to call people to "pray the prayer," then we will produce a lot of church members whose salvation testimony is "I prayed the prayer."

I do not consider an impassioned call to repentance manipulation.

God is not boxed in by our "methods." He is not hindered from saving those whom he purposes to save. But something in our evangelism produced bloated church rolls. If it is not a corrupted invitation, or a corrupted "sales pitch," what is it, then?

By the way, Revmitchell, I think you're on the money in your last paragraph. We should look for more evidence of conversion than "I said the prayer."

 

[John of Japan]

Certainly the recent invention of the so-called "altar call" element of worship is "extra-biblical." It is not in the Bible. It is also unbiblical if one believes that the elements of worship must be explicitly derived from the Bible. This is the root of this whole debate. Most folks think we can invent new elements of worship based upon human wisdom, tradition, or what we think is useful. Others believe that we must follow the Bible alone in our elements of worship (nothing more, nothing less, nothing else).

Um hmm. And here's a further wrinkle that you need to iron out with your position. No one has ever proven to me that worship is the purpose of Christians gathering together on Sunday. Nowhere in the Bible do we find Sunday meetings defined as worship, in particular corporate worship. There are several other reasons given for church meetings (Eph. 4:11-12, Heb. 10:25, etc.), but worship is not one of them. Biblically speaking, we are really to worship God constantly.

 

[Jerome]

Invitation time music? ---No, that is appalling, manipulative, and unscriptural!
Collection time music? ---Sure, we call that an offertory here at First Regulativist Church.

Quite telling, isn't it?

 

[Johnathon E]

I have sat through altar calls that I personally felt were manipulative and I have sat through those that were truly wonderful experiences. I do have an invitation at the end of the Sunday Morning Service.

Here is the invitation I used this past Sunday after a sermon from Nehemiah 2:

"Maybe you have tried to repair the problems in your life in the past and had no success. Perhaps you think they are beyond repair. Did you include God in the effort? If you didn't then you are missing the most important ingredient.

If you want to bring God into your life but you do not know how, will you come today? If you have pushed God aside and know now that you need him more than ever, will you come? You can pray where you are, you can speak to me in private if you like, but I encourage you if you feel lead today to come forward and lay your cares at the feet of the master carpenter. The one who can rebuild any life, repair any ruins."

After I say my closing I shut up while the music plays and let the Holy Spirit work. If after two verses there is no response then we close with a prayer. I do not implore or interrupt during this time as I want it to be a time of prayer and contemplation.

What does everyone think? Too manipulative? Too limited? I ask because I am always trying to be a better minister and I truly want to have a Godly service.

Thank you everyone for the discussion!

Johnathon E

 

[webdog]

I have sat through altar calls that I personally felt were manipulative and I have sat through those that were truly wonderful experiences. I do have an invitation at the end of the Sunday Morning Service.

Here is the invitation I used this past Sunday after a sermon from Nehemiah 2:

"Maybe you have tried to repair the problems in your life in the past and had no success. Perhaps you think they are beyond repair. Did you include God in the effort? If you didn't then you are missing the most important ingredient.

If you want to bring God into your life but you do not know how, will you come today? If you have pushed God aside and know now that you need him more than ever, will you come? You can pray where you are, you can speak to me in private if you like, but I encourage you if you feel lead today to come forward and lay your cares at the feet of the master carpenter. The one who can rebuild any life, repair any ruins."

After I say my closing I shut up while the music plays and let the Holy Spirit work. If after two verses there is no response then we close with a prayer. I do not implore or interrupt during this time as I want it to be a time of prayer and contemplation.

What does everyone think? Too manipulative? Too limited? I ask because I am always trying to be a better minister and I truly want to have a Godly service.

Thank you everyone for the discussion!

Johnathon E

That was a great example for an altar call, thanks! No problem with that approach whatsoever.

 

[Johnathon E]

That was a great example for an altar call, thanks! No problem with that approach whatsoever.

Thanks for the feedback webdog.

 

[TomVols]

Jonathan,
In humble encouragement, and not knowing your culture and context, I would simply say always include (unless you know for certain all are believers in Christ) an appeal for them to come to saving faith in Christ.

"Maybe you're here and your life is in ruins and you've never trusted Jesus Christ to repair those ruins. Do it now! Only God can rebuild your life by saving you from your sins as you place your faith, trust and hope in the one and only Savior." And always remember there are some who say their life is just fine. To them, I'd remind them that their sin has ruined them (Isa 6). They must flee to Christ now for God to rebuild their lives.

I would also suggest singing more than just two stanzas of a song. Two seems to be the magic number in a lot of Baptist churches. I always, and I mean always do the whole hymn. Nothing more disconcerting to see someone start to walk down the aisle but see people putting away hymnals halfway through the second stanza. If people know you're singing the whole hymn, it's different. Sometime I'll share a story about this.

One thing I appreciate more than you know: after concluding the appeal, say nothing more. All has been said. No appendecies, no talking during the invitation. IMHO this is just lousy. If it needed to be said, it should've been said during the sermon. Once in a blue moon I'll pray something aloud for the congregation as the music is stopped. But I like the way you do it. Let God do what He will as He has been during the preaching.

Thank you for sharing your example. Please, again, accept what I say as an encouraging word to a man devoted to the Word from the same kind of man. It's nothing more, nothing less.

To others:
Let's distinguish between the invitation/appeal and the act of the altar call. I see this blurred. There should be an appeal in every sermon, altar call or not. I make an appeal in Book studies or history studies, small groups, etc. Otherwise, it's just informative. I want it to be transformative. (I just made up a word, I think) :laugh:

JoJ wrote:

Nowhere in the Bible do we find Sunday meetings defined as worship, in particular corporate worship.

Perhaps, But do you deny that it is at least described as such in Acts 2, et.al, if not commanded in Col 3, et.al? Let me ask it another way: do you believe corporate worship is not prescribed/described in the Bible? You are correct that, as Jay Adams says, life is worship.

Jerome: music is prescribed and described in worship. Nothing wrong with offertory music.

Certainly the recent invention of the so-called "altar call" element of worship is "extra-biblical." It is not in the Bible. It is also unbiblical if one believes that the elements of worship must be explicitly derived from the Bible. This is the root of this whole debate. Most folks think we can invent new elements of worship based upon human wisdom, tradition, or what we think is useful. Others believe that we must follow the Bible alone in our elements of worship (nothing more, nothing less, nothing else).

This is quite a good summary of it all. Couple that with the functions of worship (preaching, music, etc.) and that which facilitates them (Powerpoint, pulpits, hymnals, electricity, etc.) and we have it all in a nutshell that should end a lot of the trivialities.

The invitation is not the problem with false conversions and bloated membership rolls. Even someone who comes down the isle of even seeks out the pastor can do the exact same thing. We are blaming the wrong thing.

How do you know we're blaming the wrong thing?

Now it appears that any attempt to make an emotional appeal is being called manipulation. I reject that it is false. Jesus used very strong language in His appeals to people.

we appeal to the whole person. But look at Jesus' appeals. They were asked to consider the cost, not just pray a prayer and walk an aisle. They were asked to give up everything, not just do what's convenient. Jesus sent people away. Not many would do that today.

Just in case I wasn't clear, let me say again that it is not only okay, but it is also necessary to call men to repentance and faith as a gospel imperative. My concern is the content of the invitation. If our method is to call people to "pray the prayer," then we will produce a lot of church members whose salvation testimony is "I prayed the prayer."

I do not consider an impassioned call to repentance manipulation.

God is not boxed in by our "methods." He is not hindered from saving those whom he purposes to save. But something in our evangelism produced bloated church rolls. If it is not a corrupted invitation, or a corrupted "sales pitch," what is it, then?

By the way, Revmitchell, I think you're on the money in your last paragraph. We should look for more evidence of conversion than "I said the prayer."

Once again, bingo. Billy Graham has said anywhere from 75%-90% of Baptists aren't saved. He has also said that he thinks over half of the people who walk the aisle for salvation at his rallies aren't true converts. There are more elements than just the altar call, but I firmly believe it plays in.

People chosen by the Lord for salvation in the NT made it public, and did not wait around for a series of man made delays to do it.

I agree with this. Of course, remember that the way they made it public was not an altar call. It was baptism. I firmly maintain that baptism has been almost rendered impotent, if not at least relegated to anticlimactic due to altar calls and the desire for quick decisions and quick results. But to delay this for a long time in my mind is not useful nor Biblical. The reason that Russia used to and places like Romania and other places now wait for so long is places like this are experiencing persecution in many ways. They are testing people out to see if their faith is genuine. I can understand that to an extent. But then again, this was the same in the NT day.

One group requires a lengthy background check, character references, and a waiting period for membership. The other grants membership on the spot as soon as someone asks for it. The latter is the local Baptist church. The former is the Rotary club down the street. What does this say? And the kicker? Both used to do the former, but quick result/easy believism killed that. As Rainer, et.al. have said, if we made the front door harder to get into, the back door wouldn't have so many going out.

And Tom mentioned that 40% is hard to get to come to church? In our association, that number is more like 15-25% of total membership. Some would kill to have almost half their resident members on a given Sunday. FWIW, the ones I know of without altar calls? They have a much higher percentage, sometimes more than their membership there. Not saying that's why, but it can't be discounted and unconsidered.

 

[Johnathon E]

Jonathan,
In humble encouragement, and not knowing your culture and context, I would simply say always include (unless you know for certain all are believers in Christ) an appeal for them to come to saving faith in Christ.

Thank you so much for your honest feedback; I take it fully as honest encouragement given in faith and I appreciate it more than you know.

I am consciously aware of the possibility of having a wrongly manipulative invitation so perhaps I tend to go too far in the opposite direction? That is why I normally stop after two verses - I have sat through the "one more verse" invitations that go on forever - but to your point I also had not considered the opposite side. Also, having been raised in church I guess I see the time of invitation as a natural time to come to the Lord and as such do not make it as explicit in my comments as I could.

You have given me great thoughts to ponder and pray about. raying: Again I thank you for them.

Johnathon E

 

[Edward 1689er]

Um hmm. And here's a further wrinkle that you need to iron out with your position. No one has ever proven to me that worship is the purpose of Christians gathering together on Sunday. Nowhere in the Bible do we find Sunday meetings defined as worship, in particular corporate worship. There are several other reasons given for church meetings (Eph. 4:11-12, Heb. 10:25, etc.), but worship is not one of them. Biblically speaking, we are really to worship God constantly.

Sorry, I was thinking the practice of an "altar call" was traditionally done during the "worship service." How does your church practice it? Is it done at a Pot-luck fellowship dinner, or perhaps during the Sunday school? Just wondering.

 

[TomVols]

I'm a critic of altar calls, yet most churches are not healthy enough yet to jettison them that I deal with. So how do I do it? How do I encourage those I mentor to do it?

One, I never make the altar call the "time" for salvation. Some preachers give the impression that salvations aren't possible (Or other responses) during the sermon, but only at the invitation hymn. So only after the whole 45 minute sermon can you get saved. What you did at the 31 minute mark didn't count, dear soul. In 20 years of ministry, I can't remember anyone who has said they made a committment, gave their lives to Christ, etc., during the invitation. They did it long before then during the sermon or even before the service started.

Use language carefully. I say something like this:

"Maybe during this past week or during this service/sermon you've trusted Christ as Savior and want to present yourself for baptism to follow His command. You can do this by coming forward and sharing this with me at the front during our hymn. Or maybe there is another response you want to share with me or with the church. Maybe you want to present yourself as a candidate for membership......." you get the idea.

Second, and this is my practice where possible, use prepackaged music. A hymn/chorus on cd, instrumental, that kind of thing. Very good ones are out there that can be used. Or in absence of this, have the praise team or solist sing. The most effective churches I've seen who use altar calls do this. I don't like people having to hold a hymnal in their hand. Far too many people have said "For years I hid behind that hymnal...." Take that excuse away! I usually have everyone bowed for them to examine themselves and to take time for prayer, solidifying the response they've made or are making.

Third, get rid of the idea that you have to show immediate results. Everybody wants to know why Sister so and so came up. Let them wait, and if they need to know, they'll know. In the meantime, they can find other things to gossip about. I've heard pastors say "Pray for the Smiths...they came up to pray for their marriage that's falling apart" and the Smiths look absolutely crestfallen. A private matter was just divulged and a family humiliated in the process. I wish I was making this up.
If someone wants to share something that's one thing. Their salvation, etc. I make the big deal of salvation at baptism. But I maintain that too many churches want the quick results, and pastors want it or feel forced for it.
I do not present candidates for membership vote right then. This idea that baptist churches are in perpetual business meeting is perplexing. Plus, I notice churches vote then on the promise of a letter. Then they vote when they get the letter? Why? Once I heard someone say that the first one is for "watchcare" membership. But that idea has flown largely out the window in today's time. And I've never heard the "watchare" orr associate monniker tacked on either time. Plus, I want time to talk to them, see why they left their old church, etc. I may need more info than what I can get in a 3 minute hymn. I know quite a few ministers who have adopted this approach only after it's bit them or their church squarely on the leg. One: "That's the most fun I've had joining the church this year" said the man. He had joined and left 5 other churches. Too late. He was now their problem, and I emphasize the word problem. Of course, they didn't have him long...just long enough. Another: family comes for membership. Members on the spot. They tell their story, how they're in need, and the church pours out the love (money, goods, etc.) on them. Then the family leaves and does this at another church. At one church I served, after I prevented this from happening after an interview and a couple of phone calls, they never gave me any grief again about not doing a quick scoreboard shout out. I'll stop at two.
Something else that makes me scratch my head: why do people vote on a just saved person prior to their baptism? I've seen this, and it makes me wonder what's happening. First, they're taking in a member who is not immersed. Since when do Baptist churches of any kind take in a nonbaptised person for any level of membership? Second, most of these have bylaws that say that a person joins the church by immersion. Well, the minute the person comes up out of the water, they're a member. The vote is redundant.

Oh well. I figured since I offered suggestions for Jonathan, I'd share how I do it. I'm sure I just offended....well, pretty much everyone, and everyone will tee off. Have at it I don't want this about me, but if I'm going to take the position I do (that altar calls don't belong, but we have to deal with them in less than ideal circumstances) then I'd present how I do them.

 

[TomVols]

Thank you so much for your honest feedback; I take it fully as honest encouragement given in faith and I appreciate it more than you know.

I am consciously aware of the possibility of having a wrongly manipulative invitation so perhaps I tend to go too far in the opposite direction? That is why I normally stop after two verses - I have sat through the "one more verse" invitations that go on forever - but to your point I also had not considered the opposite side. Also, having been raised in church I guess I see the time of invitation as a natural time to come to the Lord and as such do not make it as explicit in my comments as I could.

You have given me great thoughts to ponder and pray about. raying: Again I thank you for them.

Johnathon E

I loathe the 'one more verse' ones, too. That's why I discourage (1) saying anything else, and (2) stating it as a hymn and then agreeing upon singing the whole hymn with whatever music leadership you have. Took me a while in one church to get that idea across. The lady just refused to sing the whole hymn. Two stanzas was her limit. Every service, I'd have to ask her and remind her "let's sing the whole hymn." It literally took months of this before it was completely out of her system. She was a special case. She didn't exactly follow anyone's advice on...well, anything. The next music leader gladly followed my leadership and understood.

The reason I say that about always pointing naturally (don't strain it) to Christ is this: Jay Adams (and others) have said if you preach a sermon that a Rabbi could have preached, you haven't preached Christ. I agree. But that's another thread

 

[Tom Butler]

TomVols, we think so much alike that it's uncanny. Are you sure we weren't separated at birth? I was born in Tennessee.

A couple of things you mentioned I like. One, calling the invitation hymn just a hymn. The other, remaining silent during the singing. I just love it when you said you shut up.

Let me add another suggestion. Instead of having the congregation singing, how about just having them pray? You're standing there, the musicians are playing and the people are praying for the Holy Spirit to do his work.

I have this fantasy, which I doubt will come to reality in my lifetime. You have preached the message, you have exhorted, and you have given the invitation, and you have shut up. My fantasy is that there is no music at all. Silence. Praying. Waiting on the HS to do his work.

Naw, probably won't work. Never mind. Just a dream.

 

[Tom Butler]

Johnathon, my apologies. You asked for opinions and I responded to TomVols and ignored you.

I think the exhortation you gave was just fine. Just one caution. Be direct and clear in your terminology and your language. Be careful with flowery language. You called on listeners to "lay your cares at the feet of the master carpenter." That's fine, but just exactly how do you do that? So explain what you mean. We believers can get caught up in God-talk and forget to sound the certain trumpet.

If you are going to say "repair the problems in your life," make it clear that we're dealing with salvation, repentance and faith, and the consequences of inaction.

Most of your people know what you mean when you use such terms. But not everybody.

 

[Rubato 1]

Invitation time music? ---No, that is appalling, manipulative, and unscriptural!
Collection time music? ---Sure, we call that an offertory here at First Regulativist Church.

Quite telling, isn't it?

That's not a bad point...

 

[Johnathon E]

Johnathon, my apologies. You asked for opinions and I responded to TomVols and ignored you.

I think the exhortation you gave was just fine. Just one caution. Be direct and clear in your terminology and your language. Be careful with flowery language. You called on listeners to "lay your cares at the feet of the master carpenter." That's fine, but just exactly how do you do that? So explain what you mean. We believers can get caught up in God-talk and forget to sound the certain trumpet.

No worries, I enjoyed your reply to him as well!:laugh:

I see what you mean about the use of language. I normally try to refrain from using church lingo unless I explain it fully but you are correct - I did not do so there. I guess I got carried away with the imagery, with the sermon being on Nehemiah and the rebuilding of Jerusalem's walls.

Fortunately the majority of my congregation is over 65 and have grown up in church however I must always be aware that visitors and guests may not have the same background. Shucks, even the regulars appreciate "clear speech"!

Thank you for your feedback.

Johnathon E.

 

[Tom Butler]

Once again, bingo. Billy Graham has said anywhere from 75%-90% of Baptists aren't saved. He has also said that he thinks over half of the people who walk the aisle for salvation at his rallies aren't true converts.

I read somewhere that Charles E. Finney, who really perfected the altar call/invitation, near the end of his life says he couldn't be sure anybody was ever saved under his ministry.