Where does believing faith come from part 3

[Benefactor]

Well guys, I guess I'm just out of my league here.

I respect anyone who has studied the Greek language. However, if I cannot trust my Bible that has been translated into English, I might as well throw all my Bibles (and I have a lot :laugh into the trash and spend the next 10 years studying Greek.

We will continue to disagree on this subject and I don't want to alienate any of you by arguing things that do not affect our salvation.

I believe that God is sovereign. But I believe, and I think scripture bears it out, that God created us with the ability to believe Him or not since we are created in His image. Granted that image is marred because of the fall, but we still bear the image of our Father. We have the ability to think and reason and choose right or wrong. Because of this ability, God holds us responsible for believing Him or not.

There are mountains of scripture that clearly say that God has revealed Himself to all men and all men have the choice to respond to God or reject Him. That is how I read scripture.

Now, I must go to :sleep: as I have to be all bright eyed and bushy tailed for my yearly physical tomorrow morning. YUCK!!

:wavey:

The English versions are more than adequate. By the way those that produce them are the best of the best in the languages. I agree if you can't trust them trash them but we can trust them.

The meanings you find in the English translation are the intended meanings that to the best of the translator’s ability have rendered the meaning intended. Thus that is why the aorist participle is translated "believed" and "believing" so that it conveys to the English reader the meaning of the text as intended by the author of that text.

 

[The Archangel]

Where we differ and where the scripture disagrees with your view is that "saved" follows faith and we all know that "saved" is the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing / new birth and as such it follows faith and therefore it cannot be first but second.

No, we don't all "know" that. Regeneration/new birth and salvation are not synonyms. Being saved flows from regeneration and our salvation is by grace and that gift of grace includes faith (grace and faith being two sides of the same salvation coin). So faith and the subsequent salvation is evidence that God has regenerated someone.

It is true that one hears first, is convicted and repents then believes but this is not regeneration because to make this regeneration contradicts the order of the statement by Jesus and that of Paul in Titus 3:5.

Paul is not giving an order in Titus 3:5. His point is that He [Christ] saved us. How did He do it, through regeneration. What did He not do? Save us because of works. There is no progression apparent or applied. It simply isn't there. Paul is stating facts and the emphasis is on Christ's work of saving us through (agency...dia + genitive) regeneration (a noun in the text, washing being a noun too).

And, I'm not sure what order statement of Jesus you're referring to.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Benefactor]

But you would have us think that faith is something we all possess (like a kidney or a lung) ,

Your faith = who's faith is it?

Jesus did not say "the faith I gave you"

If this was what was intended it would have been stated that way.

 

[The Archangel]

Your faith = who's faith is it?

Jesus did not say "the faith I gave you"

If this was what was intended it would have been stated that way.

Not necessarily. If Jesus had said "your kidney has saved you" would it have been her kidney? Sure. Was having that kidney her own doing? No, of course not.

To look at only v. 50 is to ignore the context of the entire passage. Not to mention that "saved" is perfect which suggests she was saved in the past and that has implications for the present. So, her "faith" was a demonstration of something that happened (salvation) previously.

The Archangel

 

[Dr. Bob]

REMINDER TO ALL (esp Benefactor who is crossing the line in this thread) -

Would encourage a careful use of English language TO EACH OTHER in the posts on this thread.

Give facts and not caustic attacks on the other poster.

Or I will start to snip and give you a vacation.

Thanks.

 

[Winman]

To believe that unsaved man does not have the ability to exercise faith, not only contradicts numerous scriptures, but it makes God to be misleading.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Matt 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Matt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

The scriptures repeatedly show faith belonging to the person exercising it. And nowhere is it shown that God first gave them this ability.

Now why in the world would Jesus marvel at the centurion's great faith and compliment him in scripture for all time if God himself gave the centurion this faith? That does not make the least bit of sense whatsoever. If I gave you a brand new Porsche on Monday, if you drove up in that Porsche on Tuesday I would not be amazed and full of marvel that you owned a Porsche.

 

[Benefactor]

No, we don't all "know" that. Regeneration/new birth and salvation are not synonyms. Being saved flows from regeneration and our salvation is by grace and that gift of grace includes faith (grace and faith being two sides of the same salvation coin). So faith and the subsequent salvation is evidence that God has regenerated someone.

The fact of the matter is this: I can prove my position from God's Word you can't.

Paul is not giving an order in Titus 3:5. His point is that He [Christ] saved us. How did He do it, through regeneration? What did He not do? Save us because of works. There is no progression apparent or applied. It simply isn't there. Paul is stating facts and the emphasis is on Christ's work of saving us through (agency...dia + genitive) regeneration (a noun in the text, washing being a noun too).

And, I'm not sure what order statement of Jesus you're referring to.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Facts are great and yes in Titus Paul states the facts and what are the facts?

Fact: Saved is what? The Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

Fact: regeneration is - new birth

Fact: renewing is renewing

What do we have? We have the fact that the Holy Spirit causes us to be "regenerated” and this is called "Saved" that is a fact.

This work of the Holy Spirit is not our work it is His and this is a fact, our part is faith this too is a fact.

Fact: Jesus told the woman in Luke 7:50 that this fact stated in Titus 3:5 happened to her because of her faith. This is a fact.

The facts are on the side of facts and those facts disagree emphatically with your view and the ongoing view of Calvinism. These are real facts.

Fact: the sequence of correlated passages of Scripture are: faith first, Regeneration second - this is in fact the facts of what the factual truth of the word tells us.

The pivotal point of Luke 7:50 and Titus 3:5 is "believed" the facts

in Luke 7:50 faith precedes believe a fact
In Titus 3:5 believed is explained as the work of the Holy Spirit and the explanation of it does not place it before faith it simply educates us as to the ministry of the Holy Spirit - this is a fact

Facts support my view.


Regards
Benefactor

 

[The Archangel]

Facts are great and yes in Titus Paul states the facts and what are the facts?

Fact: Saved is what? The Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

Fact: regeneration is - new birth

Fact: renewing is renewing

What do we have? We have the fact that the Holy Spirit causes us to be "regenerated” and this is called "Saved" that is a fact.

This work of the Holy Spirit is not our work it is His and this is a fact, our part is faith this too is a fact.

Fact: Jesus told the woman in Luke 7:50 that this fact stated in Titus 3:5 happened to her because of her faith. This is a fact.

The facts are on the side of facts and those facts disagree emphatically with your view and the ongoing view of Calvinism. These are real facts.

Fact: the sequence of correlated passages of Scripture are: faith first, Regeneration second - this is in fact the facts of what the factual truth of the word tells us.

The pivotal point of Luke 7:50 and Titus 3:5 is "believed" the facts

in Luke 7:50 faith precedes believe a fact
In Titus 3:5 believed is explained as the work of the Holy Spirit and the explanation of it does not place it before faith it simply educates us as to the ministry of the Holy Spirit - this is a fact

Facts support my view.


Regards
Benefactor

First off, the statement "The fact of the matter is this: I can prove my position from God's Word you can't." is NOT original to my posting...you have inserted this and made it look like I answered you with this phrase--and that I DO NOT appreciate!

In the future you will refrain from putting words into my mouth. The original post can be found here and you will see that I did not make this childish comment.

I'll get to your post later.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Facts are great and yes in Titus Paul states the facts and what are the facts?

Fact: Saved is what? The Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

Fact: regeneration is - new birth

Fact: renewing is renewing

What do we have? We have the fact that the Holy Spirit causes us to be "regenerated” and this is called "Saved" that is a fact.

This work of the Holy Spirit is not our work it is His and this is a fact, our part is faith this too is a fact.

No, these are not the facts.

You are equating "saved" with "regeneration." Titus 3:5 doesn't support this and the reasons are quite grammatical.

1. The verb phrase "He saved us" is Aorist, Active, Indicative--denoting that this is a past even. When did He save us? Some time in the past (and it isn't specific)

Now, how did He do it? "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

1. "By" is the Greek preposition διά coupled with genitive nouns meaning that "by" is better translated as "through" or "by means of."

2. There are 4 nouns in the prepositional phrase--washing, regeneration, renewing, and Spirit (the Holy Spirit).

3. These words are not verbs. Thus, these nouns are stating simple facts, not actions. And these nouns, because they are genitive and διά precedes them are speaking how Jesus saved us. He saved us through these things (the nouns).

4. "The washing of regeneration" cannot be separated from "renewal of the Holy Spirit." The conjunction καί means that, likely, διά is governing both "The washing of regeneration" and "the renewal of the Holy Spirit," suggesting these are not the same things.

5. Therefore, Paul's comments are much more in line with Jesus' words in John 3 where He tells Nicodemus that you must be born of water and the spirit. Water in the Old Testament is used for a cleansing--ie. priests preparing for sacrifices, etc. So, being born of water is akin to having the washing of regeneration and being born of the spirit is akin to being renewed by the Holy Spirit.

So, regeneration is, emphatically, not the same thing as salvation.

Your argument is not with me but with the text.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Benefactor]

No, these are not the facts.

You are equating "saved" with "regeneration."

(exactly and that is exactly it)

Titus 3:5 doesn't support this and the reasons are quite grammatical.

(your opinion and these facts you present are in fact the evidence that supports the fact that "Saved" HOW? It is according to the work or the Holy Spirit's Washing of regeneration and renewing.)

1. The verb phrase "He saved us" is Aorist, Active, Indicative--denoting that this is a past even. When did He save us? Some time in the past (and it isn't specific)

Agree but so what? This factual data as you point out next is in fact the facts I have been stating all along. You in stating this here and the next statement agree in fact with the facts that I have set forth which support the fact that it is indeed factual.

Now, how did He do it? "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

Absolutely and this too as stated is the fact that this "Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing" is in fact what "Saved" is. A person who has been washed by the Holy Spirit described to us as regenerating and renewing is how the miracle of salvation is accomplished by God the Holy Spirit.

1. "By" is the Greek preposition διά coupled with genitive nouns meaning that "by" is better translated as "through" or "by means of."

2. There are 4 nouns in the prepositional phrase--washing, regeneration, renewing, and Spirit (the Holy Spirit).

3. These words are not verbs. Thus, these nouns are stating simple facts, not actions. And these nouns, because they are genitive and διά precedes them are speaking how Jesus saved us. He saved us through these things (the nouns).

this is what is going on here: Someone grab a word froma verse.


4. "The washing of regeneration" cannot be separated from "renewal of the Holy Spirit." The conjunction καί means that, likely, διά is governing both "The washing of regeneration" and "the renewal of the Holy Spirit," suggesting these are not the same things.

No one has disputed this and so your point is what?

5. Therefore, Paul's comments are much more in line with Jesus' words in John 3 where He tells Nicodemus that you must be born of water and the spirit. Water in the Old Testament is used for a cleansing--ie. priests preparing for sacrifices, etc. So, being born of water is akin to having the washing of regeneration and being born of the spirit is akin to being renewed by the Holy Spirit. So, regeneration is, emphatically, not the same thing as salvation.

Your argument is not with me but with the text.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Here you have taken a leap off the cleft. Regeneration is defined as new birth. Many Calvinist authors will completely disagree with you view and OSAS Arminians like me and others who are Just Arminians will completely disagree with your view because it is not supported by facts.

Before we move on here are some facts:


re⋅gen⋅er⋅a⋅tion  /rɪˌdʒɛnəˈreɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-jen-uh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA
Use regeneration in a Sentence
See web results for regeneration
See images of regeneration
–noun 1. act of regenerating; state of being regenerated.
2. Electronics. a feedback process in which energy from the output of an amplifier is fed back to the grid circuit to reinforce the input.
3. Biology. the restoration or new growth by an organism of organs, tissues, etc., that have been lost, removed, or injured.
4. Theology. spiritual rebirth; religious revival.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/regeneration

παλιγγενεσία (palingenesia 3824)
regeneration
(πάλιν (palin 3825) again, back again; and γένεσις (genesis 1078) creation) regeneration, used of the new man, man in Christ (compare ἄνωθεν γεννεθῆναι (anōthen 509 gennethēnai) to be begotten from love, Joh 3:6,7; and γεννη ναί ἐκ θεοῦ (gennē nai 3483 ek 1537 theou) begotten or born of God, Joh 1:13. 1Jo 2:19; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1,4,18. The verb ἀναγεννάομαι (anagennaomai 313) to be begotten or born again, 1Pe 1:3,23. The noun ἀναγέννησις (anagennēsis) does not occur in NT, but often in the Greek Fathers). παλιγγενεσία (palingenesia 3824) is also used of the new creation, the restoration or restitution of all things alluded to in Act 3:21. Rom 8:21, etc.. (Please not the part in black)
source:http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do -

Regeneration is not water baptism baptism it latterly means "again new" or "again creation" and is as well "again born" and it by Calvinist and others alike attributed to the "born from above" of John 3.

Vines page 267 Vol. III "new birth"

BAG page 611 b. 2. "of the rebirth of a redeemed person"

....................

 

[Benefactor]

this follow that last post

Let’s take a look at Titus 3:5b from the Greek
ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,

but according to the of Him mercy He saved us (conjunctive clause)

ἀλλὰ - Alla – but – superordinationg conjunction – Not just a contrast but designates that mercy is superior to works, works cannot save us. If God were not merciful then salvation is a mute issue. Mercy denotes power of the God being merciful, showing favor, kindness, compassion etc. toward or on the objects of His mercy, those who believe.
κατὰ - kata – according – preposition accusative – (not according to works but His mercy He saved, those who believe) Paul is describing the divine side of the moment of salvation.
τὸ - to – the – this definite article is accusative neuter and is related to mercy because it is accusative neuter, “the mercy” of him.
αὐτοῦ - autou - of Him – personal pronoun genitive case masculine third person singular. “mercy is of Him”
ἔλεος - eleos – mercy – accusative masculine singular
ἡμᾶς - haemas– us – personal pronoun nominative first person singular
ἔσωσεν -esoosen – saved - indicative aorist active verb third person singular. We are saved at a point in time past. This aorist tense is to be considered as follows: Having a starting point, ( the moment of passing from death to life, conversion, born from above etc.), with the results that continues, illustrated in Greek grammars as follows: *----------------- The asterisk representing the moment it took place and the line indicating the continuing effects of the event. The state of saved is an instantaneous moment but the effects are ongoing.

The perfect tense of the same word is found in Luke 7:50. In Titus 3:5 Paul illustrates the Divine side of salvation. The Holy Spirit, upon faith in Christ, in a moment of time saved us. This saved us is described as “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” The terms washing and renewing are descriptive, adjectival in function not a process. The linier effect of positional salvation is ongoing but this verse is not addressing the ongoing results or effects of regeneration, for that is an act in a point in time and its results continue. A crude illustration would be, God called a rock into existence and the rock continues in that state or a tree is created and will continually be a tree until it dies, decays, and returns to the basic elements of the earth. The physical body is born and it continues until it dies. The emphasis of Titus 3:5 is not the maturing or ongoing process it is the event of birth, saved according to “washing of new birth and renewing by the Holy Spirit”.
Here in Luke 7:50 we have the following:
Jesus stated in Luke 7:50 that faith saved, Paul describes saved as washing or regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
The perfect tense of “has saved” σεσωκεν – seswken (indicative perfect active third person singular). When the indicative mood is used in the perfect tense, the mood of reality, it signifies that the action as complete in the present. It is to be viewed as a completed action in present time, not the distance past or near past but the immediate past, it just happened at this point in time and the past of it is that close. We call it “simple past” in English. Example of a simple past is illustrated by the following: The accident just happened. It did not happen yesterday or a week ago it just happened. The woman was just saved there in that moment of time in history because she believed. She believed and was saved. The same “saved” is described in Titus. The description of salvation in Titus 3:5 is what happened to the woman who believed to receive this regeneration.

διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,

διὰ - dia – through – genitive preposition (from to) from lost to saved.
λουτροῦ - loutpou – noun, genitive, neuter, singular washing, specifically “of washing. The spelling on its own is either genitive or ablative. Genitive is “of…” and ablative use would be “from …” and the reason it is “of….”is because of the preposition “dia” through, a genitive preposition. When dia is used with this spelling if is genitive. This of itself gives the stronger argument that washing is not “water” but “spiritual” as is indicated “by Holy Spirit”. It is considered the resultant meaning as it is given here, “through or because of”, “saved through …….”. Dana Mantey page 101. We were saved “through washing or regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”. The genitive case defines something. If we ask the question: What is regeneration? It is the Holy Spirit washing and renewing a person. What is saved/regeneration? The work of the Holy Spirit describes as washing and renewing. The actual act is new birth, salvation/regeneration defined as washing and renewing. The moment of salvation the Holy Spirit changes the lost spirit/soul to a saved spirit/soul and that is simply described as “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”
παλινγενεσίας – palingenesias – regeneration – new birth –
At this point it is critical to point that regeneration and renewing are related to the same and single event or point of salvation. Regeneration and renewing are both nouns that are genitive case, feminine gender and singular in number separated by a coordinating conjunction. They go together. They agree with each other. The words “washing” “of Spirit” “Holy” are all genitive, neuter, singular. What does this mean? It means that they belong together.
So we ask the question: How is one saved? By the Holy Spirit’s washing – of regeneration and renewing: What is being regenerated and renewed? The spirit/soul is saved, converted, it is reborn or renewed. The state of the spirit/soul is separated from God and described as dead and this soul/spirit is reborn or renewed. Remember the genitive defines. It describes what took place by using words to convey the truth of the instant of salvation.
Concluding then we have a simple truth that salvation is described as the Holy Spirit rebirthing the soul / spirit from is lost state to a saved state and this is described or defined as new birth and renewing of that soul/spirit.
According to Luke 7:50 as stated above this salvation is not possible unless a person believes. So a person must first have faith or believe and this results in regeneration as presented above.

 

[DHK]

I have faith in my wife's cooking (most of the time)
I have faith in my pastor.
I have faith in my children.
I have faith in many people, and even in many things.
Most of all I have faith in God.

Now, given the above, define "faith."

 

[Benefactor]

I have faith in my wife's cooking (most of the time)
I have faith in my pastor.
I have faith in my children.
I have faith in many people, and even in many things.
Most of all I have faith in God.

Now, given the above, define "faith."

Very well now that it is understood that faith is first and regeneration/saved is second or that is follows new birth. Pure facts nothing but the fracts .....

<><><><><><><><><>>
Looking at Hebrews now:

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is (1) the assurance of things hoped for, (2) the conviction of things not seen. Faith then is trust in something that cannot be seen, but is hoped for. What exactly is this that can't be seen, but hoped for? How is this understood in light of John 20:29 "Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." In this case some believed that saw Jesus and others that did not see Him. Faith then cannot be in the man Jesus per say, but in the message of what is offered, "hoped for" that the person, this case Jesus, can do or deliver. What good is an expression of faith in a man? If we say I have faith in a man and we know nothing of the man then there is nothing to believe in. Faith would be in a skill, or past record of performance or in a promise, something that gives hope. In the case with Jesus we know from Scripture, which we also take by faith as God's word, the things hoped for which are not seen, which are specifically expressed in God's word.

Also, one key word has far reaching implications as used in this verse, the word “things”. The definition given by the author of Hebrews does not seem to have a theological definition in mind but an accepted understanding of the definition of faith, one that would be normal and understood in the time in which it was written. The average reader would understand this kind of language as the accepted norm in its historical setting to convey the idea and understanding of faith in anything, in this case the "hope" of what is given by God in the then existing writings of Scripture.

Scripture quoted are from the NASV.

The importance in understanding "faith" within Christianity has far reaching theological implications. Faith in simple terms is trust in something, but this simplicity is not so clear when it is spoken of in theological terms, especially when it is said to be a special gift given to man so that he will then be able to trust in Christ. This of course is the age long dispute between the belief systems of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Hebrews 11:1 clearly defines faith as that which is normally understood as trusting in something. It was not explained as some mystical or special infusion or gift for the purpose of trusting in Christ. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. The recipients of the letters to the Hebrews and Romans would have understood it in the same manner, trust in something. Paul informs the Romans that in order for them to believe they must hear the gospel. Hearing the gospel gives the listener the information needed to make a decision.

Faith is presented in Scripture as always occurring first followed by salvation (born from above / regeneration). This is clearly seen in Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." .

The following two orders of salvation generally represent the two views, Calvinism and Arminianism.

Both views generally believe that those converted are chosen in eternity. The difference in simple terms is that Calvinism sees a few of the all arbitrarily picked (chosen - elected) prior to any creation. The Arminian views election from eternity based on foreknowledge and God's decree to allow contingency. The Arminian as the Calvinist will vary in their acceptance of the outline listed here. These are given as a general application and are not intended to speak for these systems specifically in every detail although they will find agreement among many.

The process illustrated by using the actual statements from Scripture. (NASV):

Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Your faith has----saved you

-------(God) ----He saved us ----- not on the basis of deeds (works) which we have done in righteousness

-------(God) ----He saved us ----- according to His mercy (how)

-------(God) ----He saved us ----- by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Man's part in salvation is to believe, "Your faith has saved you".

God the Father's part is mercy

God the Holy Spirit's part is the washing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing (of us)

Calvinism teaches that if man believes in the grace of God with faith that is not infused before regeneration (new birth -saved) that this faith is a work. In other words a sinner who believes but was not saved first (regenerated) is working for their salvation. This approach to God's word is called eisegesis, "to read into". The Scripture clearly teaches that a lost person must believe prior to being saved. Their approach starts with philosophy, human reasoning.

Romans 10:8-13 (NASV)

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Information is given, "the word of faith which we preach" the gospel. The word of faith is propositional. The gospel is propositional and as such calls for a decision to be made.

The decision called for is as follows: 1) Confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord; 2) believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.

The result of such a decision is being saved, "you will be saved". Resulting in righteousness (justification) and salvation.

At the point or moment of justification one is saved, that takes place at the very same moment in time.

Propositional truth always calls for a decision. What that decision is lies in the hands of the one the truth is intended for.

Scripture tells us that man who refuses and refuses to listen and learn, John 6:45, will become reprobate and blinded past the enlightenment of God's prevenient call that all men are given, John 1:9; 12:32; 16:8-11; I Tim. 2:3-6; II Pet. 3: 9.

Please note that when a "w" or the "o",consonant followed by (e) is used the "w" or "o" is a long o sound.

Eph. 2:8 and 9 Greek

8. te gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia pistews kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

9. ouk ex ergwn ina me tis kauchshtai

Eph. 2:8 and 9 - Transliterated

8. te gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia pisteos(e) kai touto ouk ex umon(e) qeou to dwron

9. ouk ex ergon(e) ina me tis kauchshtai

Eph. 2:8 and 9 Literal translation

8. For - the - grace - you are having been saved - through - faith - and - this - not - of - you - God - the - gift

9. not - of - works - in order that - not - anyone - sould boast.

The te te

for gar gar

by grace - cariti - cariti- noun, dative case, feminine in gender, singular in number

you (plural) are este

having been saved seswsmenoi - seswsmenoi - seswsmenoi - a verbal/adjective - a participle in the perfect tense, passive voice, nominative case, masculine gender, second person, plural in number (the same word exactly is in verse 5 too)

through dia

faith - pisteos(e) - pistewV - noun, genitive case, feminine gender, singular in number

and kai

this touto -near demonstrtive pronoun, nominative case, neuter in gender, singular in number

not - ouk - ouk

out of - ex - ex

you - umon(e) - umwn

God - theou - qeou

the - to - to

gift - doron - doron

Verse 9

not - ouk - ouk

out of - ex - ex

works - ergon(e) - ergwn

in order that - ina - ina

not - me - me

anyone - tis - tiV

should bost - kauchshtai - kauchsntai

For those who do not know the Greek. You will read in various commentaries and published data about the antecedent of the “near demonstrative pronoun translated “this”; as you can locate it in the text above in maroon. The participle "having been saved is also in maroon too.

Notice three things: the case in red and gender in brown and number is blue

Grace ----------------------(1) dative in case;---------- (2) feminine is gender ---(3) singular in number

Having been saved ----(1) nominative in case;--- (2) masculine in gender -(3) plural in number

Faith ------------------------(1) genitive in case;------- (2) feminine in gender ---(3) singular in number

This ---- --------------------(1) nominative in case-----(2) neuter in gender ------(3) singular in number

Gift --------------------------(1) nominative in case-----(2) neuter in gender ------(3) singular in number

Continued in next post:

 

[Amy.G]

I have faith in my wife's cooking (most of the time)

DHK! I hope your wife doesn't read this forum! :laugh:

 

[The Archangel]

First, you are putting two passages together that do not logically go together (Titus 3:5 and Luke 7:50). Does scripture interpret scripture? Sure, but that is not what you are doing here. Luke 7:50 is a separate issue. My comments, for now, will be limited (mostly) to Titus 3:5 and your mostly errant comments about the Greek

ἔσωσεν -esoosen – saved - indicative aorist active verb third person singular.

We are saved at a point in time past. This aorist tense is to be considered as follows: Having a starting point, ( the moment of passing from death to life, conversion, born from above etc.), with the results that continues, illustrated in Greek grammars as follows: *----------------- The asterisk representing the moment it took place and the line indicating the continuing effects of the event. The state of saved is an instantaneous moment but the effects are ongoing.

Again, you are showing a basic misunderstanding of Greek grammar and syntax. The Aorist tense is a simple past tense. What you have described (a past event continuing...) is known, in Greek as the Perfect tense.

You are simply wrong.

This is the difference between actually knowing Greek and reading books about Greek. Unfortunately, you may know the parts but you can't put them together properly.

The perfect tense of the same word is found in Luke 7:50.

Absolutely not. Saved in Titus 3:5 is Aorist, Active, Indicative while saved in Luke 7:50 is Perfect, Active, Indicative. The roots are the same, the implication, because of the tense, are different.

The lady in Luke was saved at a time in the past and that salvation had implications in the present (when she was in the presence of Jesus). She did not become saved as a result of her encounter with Jesus, her encounter took place, apparently, because she had already been saved. That is why the perfect tense was used.

διὰ - dia – through – genitive preposition (from to) from lost to saved.

Umm...no. διά is not a genitive preposition. It is a preposition that is governing a clause with 4 genitive nouns. Therefore, the meaning is "through" or "by means of." διά + the genitive does not suggest anything like "from to."

Again, with all due respect, you should not play with things you don't understand. All of your twisting and stretching will never change the simple fact that this verse is not saying what you want it to say.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Benefactor]

continued

The agreement of case, gender and number are seen it the relationship of "this" to "gift". "This gift" is not of works lest anyone should boost. The question is what is "this gift" ? Is it grace, faith, or having been saved or is it a package including all three as some suggest? Grace is never use as being a gift, saving faith is not used as a gift, but salvation is. There is agreement in case of "having been saved" with "this gift" and that being the nominative case. All the evidence of Scripture suggest that the antecedent of this gift is salvation.

Now let’s compare and contrast using the case, gender and number:

First the case: (1) Grace, (2) faith and (3) this are all in different cases, (A) Grace is dative, (B) faith is genitive except that (C) this is nominative, and (D) having been saved is nominative. Notice that C and D agree in case, they are both nominative case. The antecedent of gift is "this" they agree in case, gender and number (nominative case, neuter gender, and singular in number). The normal conclusion would be that "salvation" is the gift. Salvatoin is discribed as a grace gift in Romans 5:15-21. It establishes the truth of Eph. 2:8. When we speak of "grace gift" in this context it is different from that in I Cor. where the Greek term "dora - dora" is not fund but here in Romans both “dora – dora” and "charisma - carisma" are used and explained in verse 17. Verse 17 distinguishes the differences in grace and gift whereby there can be no confusion as to the kind of "gift" salvation is (the gift of righteousness which is also identified as justification). Salvation is undeniably of grace but the dora of that grace is salvation. Grace is the reason salvation is a gift that is received by faith in God's grace.

Second, we compared gender. Both grace and faith are feminine, and “this” is neuter and “having been saved” is masculine. In comparing gender with gender this is not a normal situation. We are left with trying to understand what the antecedent is of “this”. If it had been feminine that would clearly solve only half of the problem theologians have with this verse because the cases do not match, except with the participle nor is there a patter with the use of "this" "touto" in other Scripture that would indicate what it might be more definitively. Generally speaking the antecedent of the near demonstrative pronoun is easily identified but Eph. 2:8 is interesting and thus the wide views on it. It is our earnest belief that the Scripture does not support "believing faith" as a gift, therefore we do not have a compelling reason to make this verse contradict the normal understanding of Scripture.

Third, we compared number. Grace, faith, and "this" are singular and “having been saved is plural” so this agrees in number with grace and faith but not with “having been saved”. “Having been saved agrees with the word that comes before it which is “are” but is translated “you are” this state of being verb, as we would call it, takes on the identity of the participle being verbal and adjectival in function.

 

[The Archangel]

Removed by The Archangel. Sorry, Benefactor, for making a joke at your expense.

Faith is presented in Scripture as always occurring first followed by salvation (born from above / regeneration).

Really?!

Explain, then, in John 3 where Nicodemus had faith before Jesus told him he had to be born again.

Really?!

Explain, then, Abraham. Did he have faith in Yahweh when he was called out of Ur?

Joshua certainly says "no."

Joshua 24:2-3 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. (emphasis mine)

Very interesting. Abraham was an idol worshiper when God took him from beyond the river. So, obviously, Abraham did not have faith before God began His work in him.

So, I'll ask again: Explain Abraham.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Benefactor]

First, you are putting two passages together that do not logically go together (Titus 3:5 and Luke 7:50). Does scripture interpret scripture? Sure, but that is not what you are doing here. Luke 7:50 is a separate issue. My comments, for now, will be limited (mostly) to Titus 3:5 and your mostly errant comments about the Greek

Of course it is to you and those who hold your view. I don't expect you to agree. Everyone must make their mind up to follow the facts as I have presented them truthfully or to follow your view which you feel is correct but has been demonstrated that it is not.

Again, you are showing a basic misunderstanding of Greek grammar and syntax. The Aorist tense is a simple past tense. What you have described (a past event continuing...) is known, in Greek as the Perfect tense.

You are simply wrong.

Here is an attempt to insult, belittle and goad. The "saved" in Luke is perfect and if you would slow down and read my post you would have notice that I state that in my post, so do yourself a favor and stop jumping to conclussions and stop the personal attacks. Second, the aorist can be understood as punctiller, ingressive and culminative. The result of the perfect are continuing and the result of the aorist ingressive are continuing. Please, stop the personal attacks and read carefully what I post. You are to quick to jump in come to missguided conclussions.

This is the difference between actually knowing Greek and reading books about Greek. Unfortunately, you may know the parts but you can't put them together properly.

At it again, goading, attempting to belittle, tear down and build up oneself. :tonofbricks: That's OK, I am use to it.

Absolutely not.

Again read what is said and stop miss representing what I say.

Saved in Titus 3:5 is Aorist, Active, Indicative while saved in Luke 7:50 is Perfect, Active, Indicative. The roots are the same, the implication, because of the tense, are different.

Go back and reads what is I post, stop trying to make it look like what I say is not represented factually.

Please repeat what this says out loud and stop miss representing what I say:

ἔσωσεν -esoosen – saved - indicative aorist active verb third person singular. We are saved at a point in time past. This aorist tense is to be considered as follows: Having a starting point, ( the moment of passing from death to life, conversion, born from above etc.), with the results that continues, illustrated in Greek grammars as follows: *----------------- The asterisk representing the moment it took place and the line indicating the continuing effects of the event. The state of saved is an instantaneous moment but the effects are ongoing.

(the aorist here is being viewed as ingressive) *-------------- That is what is meant by the *------------- and I can live with the constative aorist as that which would represent this verse too for it will either way not prove anything against my view or for yours) The fact remains that "Saved" is past and faith is prior to Saved regardless of the kind of past that it is represented "perfect or aorist")

Umm...no. διά is not a genitive preposition. It is a preposition that is governing a clause with 4 genitive nouns. Therefore, the meaning is "through" or "by means of." διά + the genitive does not suggest anything like "from to."

When dia is used with the genitive it remains a genitive use and not consider as being used as "ablative". The genitive use is by the use of dia a sure bet that it is used as "genitive" not "ablative" and reinforces my position because this in turn simply defines what "saved" is and that is the exact way it is set in the English text for the English reader to understand it. If you want to continue to play games fine and miss represent what I say it is to your pearl not mine.

Again, with all due respect, you should not play with things you don't understand. All of your twisting and stretching will never change the simple fact that this verse is not saying what you want it to say.

Blessings,

More goading, belittling and attempts to insulting........

The Archangel

What will you come up with next? Try to be kind next time and stop the personal attacks. Disagree all you like but stop being pejorative.

 

[DHK]

Very well now that it is understood that faith is first and regeneration/saved is second or that is follows new birth. Pure facts nothing but the fracts .....

I asked a simple question? I phrased it in such a way that it has nothing to do with regeneration. Yet you took up half of this page answering a simple question that actually needs no Scripture to answer. Faith is a noun. Just give a simple definition of that noun. Are you able to do that. I gave you an example.

I have faith in many people and even in many things.
I have faith in my car. Does that mean my car is regenerated?
Now, are you able to answer a simple question.
Tonight I have faith in my car that it will get me to church.

 

[TomVols]

How are you guys getting Greek fonts to display? I haven't been able to do that for some time