Where does believing faith come from part 3

[webdog]

I have faith in my wife's cooking (most of the time)
I have faith in my pastor.
I have faith in my children.
I have faith in many people, and even in many things.
Most of all I have faith in God.

Now, given the above, define "faith."

You wouldn't have faith in my wifes cooking

 

[Benefactor]

I asked a simple question? I phrased it in such a way that it has nothing to do with regeneration. Yet you took up half of this page answering a simple question that actually needs no Scripture to answer. Faith is a noun. Just give a simple definition of that noun. Are you able to do that. I gave you an example.

I have faith in many people and even in many things.
I have faith in my car. Does that mean my car is regenerated?
Now, are you able to answer a simple question.
Tonight I have faith in my car that it will get me to church.

Here is what you ask:

Now, given the above, define "faith."

Defining "faith" is different from asking what form of speech is "faith". You ask the wrong question. Ask the right question and get the appropriate answer.
I can’t read your mind and by the way the implication of the second question “Does that mean my car is regenerated?” is not the kind of question you ask if you want the answer to address the form of speech that faith is. Your questions are not ones that look for that kind of answer and the content of the questions are in line with the response I gave. Would you care to comment on the post I gave in response to these questions which by the way is appropriate?
Yes it is a noun, not a verb, or adjective etc.

 

[Benefactor]

How are you guys getting Greek fonts to display? I haven't been able to do that for some time

I noticed that too. It depends on where you copy it from. I copy it form my word processor and from a website, my personal one, that I am working on. Not sure if the posting will support other sources on the web. You will have to try your WP to see if it is supported.

Benefactor

 

[Benefactor]

Examples of sites - Greek posting

Hort and Westcott
ouk ex ergwn twn en dikaiosunh a epoihsamen hmeiV alla kata to autou eleoV eswsen hmaV dia loutrou paliggenesiaV kai anakainwsewV pneumatoV agiou

No on this one: http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index2.htm

Same data copied to my WP and converted
Hort and Westcott


No on this route

διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,

Interesting: This copy of Titus 3:5 is from the same WP but it takes. Let me check something else out.

5οὐκ ἐξ ἔρ.γων τῶν ἐν δι.και.ο.σύ.νῃ ἃ ἐ.ποι.ή.σα.μεν ἡ.μεῖς ἀλ.λὰ κα.τὰ τὸ αὐ.τοῦ ἔ.λε.ος ἔ.σω.σεν ἡ.μᾶς δι.ὰ λουτ.ροῦ πα.λιν.γε.νε.σί.ας καὶ ἀ.να.και.νώ.σε.ως πνεύ.μα.τος ἁ.γί.ου,

http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do

OK this works: If you want to post the Greek then go here and find the verse you like and much more, great site, and post here. You will have to remove the "." periods to make it look normal.

First, try your WP. Converting to Greek from my WP won't work I have to copy and paste form a web site like the one above and I am sure there are others that will work. Who knows maybe your WP will too.

Βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβραάμ. Matthew 1:1
Good here is another website to use: http://www.greekbible.com/index.php


βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβραάμ
Here is another site that works: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=1&v=1&t=MGNT#top

1. βιβλος γενεσεως ιησου χριστου υιου δαυιδ υιου αβρααμ
Last one: http://unbound.biola.edu/

 

[DHK]

Here is what you ask:



Defining "faith" is different from asking what form of speech is "faith". You ask the wrong question. Ask the right question and get the appropriate answer.
I can’t read your mind and by the way the implication of the second question “Does that mean my car is regenerated?” is not the kind of question you ask if you want the answer to address the form of speech that faith is. Your questions are not ones that look for that kind of answer and the content of the questions are in line with the response I gave. Would you care to comment on the post I gave in response to these questions which by the way is appropriate?
Yes it is a noun, not a verb, or adjective etc.

So beat around the bush again.
Why can't you answer a simple question. I didn't ask you to give me the part of speech that "faith" is. I gave that info to you free of charge. But I will send you a bill if you so desire.

Define faith. It is a two word request. Do you think you can do it?

 

[AresMan]

I have faith in my car. Does that mean my car is regenerated?

Why would you having faith make your car regenerated?

 

[Benefactor]

Removed by The Archangel. Sorry, Benefactor, for making a joke at your expense.



Really?!

Explain, then, in John 3 where Nicodemus had faith before Jesus told him he had to be born again.

Really?!

Explain, then, Abraham. Did he have faith in Yahweh when he was called out of Ur?

Joshua certainly says "no."

Joshua 24:2-3 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. (emphasis mine)

Very interesting. Abraham was an idol worshiper when God took him from beyond the river. So, obviously, Abraham did not have faith before God began His work in him.

So, I'll ask again: Explain Abraham.

Blessings,

The Archangel

All of us at one time were in our own land beyond the Euphrates in our lives and we came to faith in Christ. The issue here is not that we all come from a lost state and now are saved, regenerate. The issue is in our understanding of which is first salvation or faith. The Bible is full of passages attributing Abraham's faith as the reason for his justification.

John 3 records for us the dialogue between Nic and Jesus. When taken in context we see that Jesus explains to Nic how in different terms later in the chapter. Let's look at it.

John 3
Jesus and Nicodemus
1 There was a man from the Pharisees (A) named Nicodemus, (B) a ruler (C) of the Jews. 2 This man came to Him at night and said, " Rabbi, (D) we know that You have come from God (E) as a teacher, (F) for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him." (G)

3 Jesus replied, " I assure you: Unless someone is born again, (H) [a] he cannot see the kingdom of God." (I)

4 "But how can anyone be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked Him. "Can he enter his mother's womb a second time and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, " I assure you: Unless someone is born (J) of water and the Spirit, (K) he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 Whatever is born of the flesh (L) is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit (M) is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you [c] must be born (N) again. 8 The wind [d] blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going. (O) So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (P)


9 "How can these things be?" asked Nicodemus. (This is important because it is the key to understanding this chapter and this is where Calvinism refuses to trod. This question by Nic leads to the further defining and explaining of "born from above")

10 "Are you a teacher [e] of Israel and don't know these things?" Jesus replied. 11 " I assure you: (Q) We speak what We know and We testify to what We have seen, but you [f] do not accept Our testimony. [g] 12 If I have told you about things that happen on earth and you don't believe, how will you believe if I tell you about things of heaven? 13 No one has ascended (R) into heaven (S) except the One who descended from heaven (T) —the Son of Man. (U) [h] 14 Just as Moses (V) lifted up the snake in the wilderness, (W) so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life. (X)

16 "For God loved (Y) the world in this way: He gave His One and Only (Z) Son, (AA) so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (AB) 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge (AC) the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, (AD) but anyone who does not believe is already judged, (AE) because he has not believed in the name (AF) of the One and Only Son (AG) of God.

The illustration of the snake in the desert and John 3:16 clearly teach faith first and regeneration second. These statements are on the heels of Jesus trying to explain to Nic the spiritual truth of "born from above". They are the natural flow of the text and so in context they apply and explain what Jesus was teaching Nic.

 

[The Archangel]

What will you come up with next? Try to be kind next time and stop the personal attacks. Disagree all you like but stop being pejorative.

You must be joking. You said I was the king of "stupid idiot moron backward nitwits form stump jumping ridge in the middle of nowhere." Someone who wrote this to me should not be attempting to lecture me about "personal attacks."

You should understand this: When I point out the errors, and there are many, in your understanding of Greek, that is not a personal attack. Perhaps you are taking any disagreement as a "personal attack?"

You have demonstrated your lack of understanding insofar as the Greek is concerned, so it isn't an attack when I am pointing things out to you.

Did you rail against your math teacher when he told you you were doing it wrong? Do you rail against your pastor when he suggests your understanding is wrong?

Go back and reads what is I post, stop trying to make it look like what I say is not represented factually.

Please repeat what this says out loud and stop miss representing what I say:

If you will notice, I have no need to misrepresent what you say. In every response I make I include the original post to which I am responding with a link to the original in its entirety.

ἔσωσεν -esoosen – saved - indicative aorist active verb third person singular. We are saved at a point in time past. This aorist tense is to be considered as follows: Having a starting point, ( the moment of passing from death to life, conversion, born from above etc.), with the results that continues, illustrated in Greek grammars as follows: *----------------- The asterisk representing the moment it took place and the line indicating the continuing effects of the event. The state of saved is an instantaneous moment but the effects are ongoing.

(the aorist here is being viewed as ingressive) *-------------- That is what is meant by the *------------- and I can live with the constative aorist as that which would represent this verse too for it will either way not prove anything against my view or for yours)

I know what the ingressive aorist is and there is no reason to view Titus 3:5 as ingressive.

Why? Because the Aorist Indicative is a simple past even (as it has the augment at the beginning). So if it wasn't in the indicative mood, your notion of the ingressive, constative, etc. might be interesting. The Aorist Indicative precludes your interpretation.

The fact remains that "Saved" is past and faith is prior to Saved regardless of the kind of past that it is represented "perfect or aorist")

This is your presupposition and it is not stated in the text in question.

Of course it is to you and those who hold your view. I don't expect you to agree. Everyone must make their mind up to follow the facts as I have presented them truthfully or to follow your view which you feel is correct but has been demonstrated that it is not.

Here is the issue. I'm not following a "view." The facts that you have been presenting have not been in accordance with the Greek. So, as the case always should be, we must follow scripture, not "views."

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

How are you guys getting Greek fonts to display? I haven't been able to do that for some time

Tom,

I don't copy-cut-paste, I type things in manually. The problem for you may be that I am a Mac user, so things may not translate from me to you perfectly.

I downloaded it from Tyndale House it is a Unicode font (go here to download it in either Mac or PC). I have been successful in typing it wherever I want. Although, on the Mac, I have to change languages--but it is just a click and then, after I'm done, I click back into English. BTW, they have Hebrew fonts too.

Happy Greek-ing and Hebrew-ing!

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

My Question to Benefactor: Explain Abraham...Joshua tells us he didn't have faith when God began His work in Him. Benefactor's answer:

All of us at one time were in our own land beyond the Euphrates in our lives and we came to faith in Christ. The issue here is not that we all come from a lost state and now are saved, regenerate. The issue is in our understanding of which is first salvation or faith. The Bible is full of passages attributing Abraham's faith as the reason for his justification.

The answer? Obfuscation.

The issue is, as you stated, which is first salvation or faith, but you never answered the question. Why did God choose Abraham when he was still an idol worshiper and, therefore, had no faith?

Your statement of faith being the reason for Abraham's justification is true but your application of it to my question is anachronistic, and, therefore, doesn't apply.

My question is not dealing with Abraham's being credited with righteousness (his faith was counted as righteousness). My question is dealing with God's choosing him when he was faithless.

The illustration of the snake in the desert and John 3:16 clearly teach faith first and regeneration second.

No, they don't. John 3:16 says nothing of faith preceding salvation, neither does Jesus' snake illustration.

The text of John 3:14-16 mentions, as the KJV would say, whosoever believes. But that's not what the participial phrase actually says. The phrase is, literally, all the believing ones. It mentions nothing of how or why they became believing ones.

Furthermore, Jesus is talking about "being born from above" in 3:3. Then, Jesus launches into a bizarre (if one isn't familiar with the Old Testament) statement about water and spirit which is a clear reference to Ezekiel 36. At the end of it all He strongly chastises Nicodemus for being the teacher of Israel and not knowing about being born again from above, being born of water and spirit, etc. Never once does he mention having to have faith (disclaimer: I believe you have to have faith...God doesn't believe for anyone).

So, it is incorrect to read faith as a prerequisite into this passage.

Even so, if faith was a prerequisite, God could have never chosen Abraham.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

Define faith. It is a two word request. Do you think you can do it?

Still waiting Benefactor. "Faith," What is it? Do you need a dictionary?

 

[Benefactor]

Still waiting Benefactor. "Faith," What is it? Do you need a dictionary?

Which one would you recommend?


Faith is a non meritorious word. The value of faith is in the object of one’s faith. When one believes in Christ the object is Christ and Christ being the object gets all the merit, credit. The subject, the person believing cannot receive credit or be charged as having merit by trusting in Christ. Believing faith is never called merit in Scripture. Believing “faith” is a non meritorious trust in the work of God from the individual and not an unsupported phony doctrine of forced infused faith which is then no faith but a mechanical response. Faith ceases to be faith when it its coerced. The Calvinist method of “so call faith” is a coerced faith” and that kind of faith in no faith but a response of forced following based on fear.

 

[Benefactor]

Still waiting Benefactor. "Faith," What is it? Do you need a dictionary?

Paul tells us that if Christ has not been raised then our faith is in vain. In other words the faith that saved us would be the same faith that is in vain. This faith as understood from Romans 10 and Hebrews 1 and here in I Cor. 15 are solid evidence that the false notion that God infused a mystical supernatural forced faith into sinner to make the believe is not taught in Scripture.
Calvinist accuses Paul of teaching that faith is a special infused gift when in fact Paul teaches the opposite as demonstrated in these passages, Romans 10, I Cor. 15 and Hebrews 1.

Faith is trust in something, for the sinner to receive regeneration the trust is in Christ.

Nowhere at all can a Calvinist show a verse were regeneration is first and faith second.

However, faith is always presented first and regeneration/salvation follows. :thumbs:

Jesus told the woman "your faith has saved you” Jesus did not say your salvation has faith you. And we know that this "saved" that follows "faith" is defined as the Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing in Titus 3:5. I don't think it would be nice to call Jesus a liar and tell him that what He said is not what He meant,

Your is a personal pronoun. Whose faith was it? Her faith "your faith" No need to consult anything from Calvin or any commentary written by a Calvinist just believe Jesus, He is God, why not trust Him and what He said?

For me and my family we will trust in Christ - faith first - regeneration -which is salvation second.

 

[Winman]

The issue is, as you stated, which is first salvation or faith, but you never answered the question. Why did God choose Abraham when he was still an idol worshiper and, therefore, had no faith?

Your statement of faith being the reason for Abraham's justification is true but your application of it to my question is anachronistic, and, therefore, doesn't apply.

My question is not dealing with Abraham's being credited with righteousness (his faith was counted as righteousness). My question is dealing with God's choosing him when he was faithless.

God chose Abraham because God through foreknowledge knew Abraham would believe. Election follows God's foreknowledge as plainly shown in scripture.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This verse here clearly explains that election is based on something God knew beforehand. If it were not faith, then what would it be?

And Jesus knew exactly "from the beginning" who would believe not, and therefore he also knows who will believe. This is not my opinion, this is declared in scripture.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

So, we see from scripture itself that Jesus knows who will believe and who will not. And he knew this "from the beginning".

Calvinism turns this around 180 degrees and says God first chooses or elects a man, and then regenerates him. The scriptures nowhere say that or show that. In fact, in the parable of the marriage, it is shown that those who answer God's call in obedience and come to the marriage with the proper wedding garment (Christ's righteousness) are the chosen or elect.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Here, the king is God the Father. His son is of course Jesus. He called men to come to the wedding. It was his will and desire that they come. But they refused.

This first part of the passage speaks of the Jews. Jesus was first sent to God's chosen and elect people.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Jews were God's elect and chosen people. But they forfeited their election through unbelief. But not all, a remnant did believe and continued to be God's elect.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Here it is clearly explained. God did not cast away all the Jews. He knew that seven thousand would not bow the knee to Baal. These were those faithful Jews who trusted in God. And it directly says there is a remnant according to the election of grace, and explains that they are elect through God's grace and not according to works.

And grace is through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You receive God's grace "through faith". You must first have faith before you can receive grace.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So, God the Father could see down through time and see those who would be faithful and believe in him. And it is these who he foreknew that he elected.

Back to the wedding, we see that only those who obeyed God's calling and came to the wedding were the chosen or elect.

Matt 2:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The doctrine of Limited Atonement is false. Jesus died for all men, and God calls all men through Jesus. Any man can choose Christ if he so desires. And God the Father already knows who will believe on his Son, and it is these that are his elect.

And it is not set in stone. One who is not elect now can become elect.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Jews are the natural olive tree spoken of here. They are the chosen, the elect. But because of unbelief they have been broken off (vs 20). And us Gentiles who have believed have been graffed into this tree. But we are called the wild olive tree in Rom 11:17.

But notice very importantly in Romans 11:23 that Paul says if the Jews that are at present broken off from the natural tree turn from unbelief and trust in Christ, then God is able to graff them back into the natural olive tree "again". They can become the elect once again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So, God has not determined who will believe and who will not. God does not first elect someone and determine they will be saved. No, God through foreknowledge can see who will believe, and these are the elect.

And a man who is not elect at this moment because of unbelief can turn from unbelief to trust in Christ and become the elect.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

You are still making man sovereign in his own salvation. If that error makes you happy then stay happy in your error. Fortunately it will not affect your salvation!

 

[webdog]

Winman

You are still making man sovereign in his own salvation. If that error makes you happy then stay happy in your error. Fortunately it will not affect your salvation!

How long will you continue on with that lie, OR?

 

[Winman]

Which one would you recommend?


Faith is a non meritorious word. The value of faith is in the object of one’s faith. When one believes in Christ the object is Christ and Christ being the object gets all the merit, credit. The subject, the person believing cannot receive credit or be charged as having merit by trusting in Christ. Believing faith is never called merit in Scripture. Believing “faith” is a non meritorious trust in the work of God from the individual and not an unsupported phony doctrine of forced infused faith which is then no faith but a mechanical response. Faith ceases to be faith when it its coerced. The Calvinist method of “so call faith” is a coerced faith” and that kind of faith in no faith but a response of forced following based on fear.

I agree with Benefactor here. Faith or trust means the ability to depend or rely upon someone safely. If another person is trustworthy, it is that person that has shown merit, not ourselves. A person who might be very untrustworthy themselves may know someone who is very trustworthy. A lifelong thief who is known to be very untrustworthy may safely trust his mother who has always shown herself faithful to him. It is the mother who shows merit, not the thief.

When we do not believe God's word, we call him a liar.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You cannot please God without faith. If you do not trust or believe God you are calling him a liar. This is a serious sin, calling our perfect, Holy God a liar. He will not show grace or favor to someone who does this.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Winman]

Winman

You are still making man sovereign in his own salvation. If that error makes you happy then stay happy in your error. Fortunately it will not affect your salvation!

Yes, it is a ridiculous charge. God has given men free will and the ability to exercise it. If God has allowed this (and he has), then in no way are we ursurping his sovereignty.

I will show once again where this is directly shown in scripture.

1 Sam 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Once again, God had set judges over Israel to rule the people. But the Israelites wanted a king like the nations around them. This displeased both Samuel and the Lord.

But notice that God told Samuel to hearken or listen to the people and give them their desire. And God told Samuel that it was not he (Samuel) who they were rejecting, they were rejecting God himself that he would not "reign" over them.

What does "reign" mean? This is directly speaking of God's sovereignty. God allows man to make his own choices. That does not mean there will not be repercussions for sinful choices. God had Samuel warn the people of all the hardships this king would bring upon them. He said they would cry out because of the king they had "chosen you"

1 Sam 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

Could God have prevented the people from making a king over themselves? Of course. So in no way does God allowing people to make their own independent choices ursurp his authority and soveignty over them.

Let me tell you a true story. Many years ago I was sitting on the couch reading. My son who was only about two years old (now 31) came over and reached up to touch the lightbulb on the lamp beside the couch. I shouted, "No! do not touch that, it is very hot!". He jerked his hand away. Then he got a sly, devious smile on his face and reached up again to touch the hot bulb. Again, I shouted at him not to touch the light and he jerked his hand away. But again, the third time he reached up with that sly little smile on his face. He was being rebellious to me and we both knew it. This time I said, "Go ahead, touch the light."

Well, he did and immediately shouted in pain and ran to his mother crying. She was very upset and asked me what had happened. I explained that he kept trying to touch the light after I had warned him not to several times, and so finally I allowed him to touch it.

Now, could I have prevented him from touching that light? Of course. I could have picked him up and taken him to his room and closed the door.

But you see, I wanted him to learn a lesson. I wanted him to learn that when his mother and father warn him not to do something, it is for good reason. I also wanted him to learn the penalty of rebellion.

And you know, he never tried to touch a hot lightbulb again.

So, God allows men to make their own choices. He is still in complete control. But God warns us that there is a penalty for sin, and we shall reap what we sow.

 

[Benefactor]

Your statement of faith being the reason for Abraham's justification is true but your application of it to my question is anachronistic, and, therefore, doesn't apply.

Just the kind of answer is to be expected from a 5 point Calvinist. You are true to what you believe, but that of course puts you in the camp of constant error. The whole of the Tulip is nothing more than man forcing on Scripture human reasoning, denying the meaning of words and twisting the scripture to teach what it does not say. You are a Calvinist.

My question is not dealing with Abraham's being credited with righteousness (his faith was counted as righteousness). My question is dealing with God's choosing him when he was faithless.

You can't help yourself can you. That is funny :laugh:
Please don't hurt yourself because you may feel like :BangHead: to relieve frustration. You should give it up it is a dead end.
God knows all who will believe before they believe, do you believe that?

No, they don't. John 3:16 says nothing of faith preceding salvation, neither does Jesus' snake illustration.

They r not ducks
O yes they r ducks

Again your response is a normal misguided Calvinistic answer, a pat answer because you are in fact a 5 point Calvinist. You are just acting that way because you are made to do it. You are a follower of determinism and what you say and do and believe has been determined, it is your view, you must refuse to agree with scripture in context. What can anyone say your fait is sealed?

The text of John 3:14-16 mentions, as the KJV would say, whosoever believes. But that's not what the participial phrase actually says. The phrase is, literally, all the believing ones. It mentions nothing of how or why they became believing ones.

Well - Well - Well - that is a deep subject but no problem.

You are of course putting the Calvinist spin on this which is what is expected of you because you are a 5 point Calvinist. This view is the norm for those that follow the erring doctrines of the Tulip. It is just the way it is. :wavey: You are deterministically going to say what you say because you don't have a choice, you are caused to do it and therefore you robotically do what you are cause to do, say, eat, think, etc. It is what it is.

flower: Pretend that is a tulip and a gift to you)

Now the "ho" in context is a relative pronoun "who" and the correct reading of the Greek is not as you say but as I say, “in order that all who" is the word order and so the translators who have translated it whosoever or everyone are correct and you view is just flat out wrong. What can I say you are Mr. Consistent in your view and again I give you credit where credit is due; you are a 5 point Calvinist. you have it as plural and "all" is nms; ho is nms and believing in nms. The RP will agree with what it modifies and it modifies "all" which is nms and as stated ho is nms too, by the way believe is singular but you know that. If God had wanted it to be plural it would be plural.

Furthermore, Jesus is talking about "being born from above" in 3:3. Then, Jesus launches into a bizarre (if one isn't familiar with the Old Testament) statement about water and spirit which is a clear reference to Ezekiel 36. At the end of it all He strongly chastises Nicodemus for being the teacher of Israel and not knowing about being born again from above, being born of water and spirit, etc. Never once does he mention having to have faith (disclaimer: I believe you have to have faith...God doesn't believe for anyone).

So, it is incorrect to read faith as a prerequisite into this passage.

Even so, if faith was a prerequisite, God could have never chosen Abraham.

Blessings,

I tell you what! I don't know what bible you are reading but I don't have that one and I have a bunch. Is this your personal translation, if so I would understand why it would not say what the entire main versions that are well accepted would say? I explained it previously in context and what I said is gospel truth, not spin. You see the spin stops here. Good try but again you are off the path on what the text actually says.

The Archangel

Well there you have it. The truth without spin, no twisting, re-defining and the whole nine yards:



Regards
Benefactor

 

[Winman]

Furthermore, Jesus is talking about "being born from above" in 3:3. Then, Jesus launches into a bizarre (if one isn't familiar with the Old Testament) statement about water and spirit which is a clear reference to Ezekiel 36. At the end of it all He strongly chastises Nicodemus for being the teacher of Israel and not knowing about being born again from above, being born of water and spirit, etc. Never once does he mention having to have faith (disclaimer: I believe you have to have faith...God doesn't believe for anyone).

That is pure nonsense, Christ mentions faith several times in this passage.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You can't simply pull a few verses out of context. Jesus mentions faith to Nicodemus many times in this passage, and says that faith is absolutely neccesary to be saved.