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Drinking Question......
- Thread starter ShotGunWillie
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You are missing the fact that it does not say "fermented." It says "red." "Fermented" is just your interpretation.
Tell me, do you close your eyes when you walk past wine in the grocery store? Of course not, because it is not talking about "looking." What it is talking about is "looking" in terms of gazingly longingly at; it is talking about drunkeness/addiction!
Not only that, note the ESV:
Pro 23:31 Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly.
When does wine go down smoothly? When the partaker has already drank quite a bit. This is a passage about moderation, not abstinence.
What is God's opinion about wine? God commands...
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there,
Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses
Deu 14:26 and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
God just told commanded the people to take their tithe, and, if they like it, buy wine and strong drink with it, and have a party with their house! Not exactly a "Fundamental Baptist" text, huh?
freeatlast
New Member
The problem with Deut 14 we do not have enough information to know what is going on. Something has to be missing from our understanding of this event. It would be very unwise to decide that getting drunk is a command or even drinking for that matter. When compared to the rest of scripture against the warnings of drinking one should back off the Deut passage and allow more clear passages speak. If you believe that Deut 14:26 is a justification for drinking then if you are going to be fair to your manner of interpretation you need to also argue it is all right to have more then one wife.
Deut. 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
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Steadfast Fred
Active Member
I suggest you read the passage. It does not say 'Look not thou upon the wine when you are drunk.' It says "Look not thou upon the wine when IT IS... when IT GIVETH... when IT MOVETH..."
Don't look upon it when it is fermented.
Deuteronomy 14 is a command. Deuteronomy 21:15 is a "if this happens" contingency. Saying "There has to be something else" when scripture CLEARLY has God telling people to buy strong drink, is simply sticking your head in the sand. If drinking were sinful, God would NEVER command such a thing.
The fact is, there are NO scripture which forbids drinking in moderation; only scripture which forbid getting drunk. Personally, I abstain, not because it is sinful, but because of the one who has weaker faith, and cannot do such without violating his own self imposed rules.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
As is obvious by your claim that the Bible does not teach us to abstain from alcohol.
OK. Look not upon the wine when it is fermented.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Context shows it is an alcoholic wine, HavensDad.
Deuteronomy 14 was addresssing the tithe... which was not required of people living outside of Israel. So your argument is not good.
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This is an unforgivable blunder. No, it addresses the person's PERCEPTION of the wine, not the wine itself. The fact that wine "goes down smoothly" is a perception of the person. The fact that it is sparkling, is the way that it is SEEN by the person.
Tell me, if it is simply talking about "looking", how could someone know if it was red, sparkling, etc., without looking? It is clearly talking about a lustful, drunken gaze, not just "seeing."
Argument is great. God commanded them to buy alcohol, even strong drink. IMPOSSIBLE if it were sinful, or wrong.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Say 'liar' all you wish. You would be wrong.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
If it were, as you claim, when one's perception changes, then it would be too late. They would already be drunk.
The command is to abstain from it altogether. Look not upon it when it is fermented.
Putting away the bottle after you're drunk is "moderation"?
The same book that says not to look upon the wine commands wine to be given to those who are sick, depressed, or dying. All are forms of medicine. If all of Scripture is given by inspiration, and it is, then how do you justify this seeming contradiction? The Word cannot be in contradiction; therefore, those who take Pr 23:31 to mean not to physically look at fermented wine must be wrong. How can one give strong drink to another, or take it for one's stomach as Timothy did, without looking at it. What an asinine interpretation.
A critical skill to Biblical interpretation is understanding when it is literal & when it is figurative. You have to ignore or misinterpret MANY sections of Scripture in order to force Pr 23:31 to fit fundamentalist doctrine.
A critical skill to Biblical interpretation is understanding when it is literal & when it is figurative. You have to ignore or misinterpret MANY sections of Scripture in order to force Pr 23:31 to fit fundamentalist doctrine.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Ain't it amazing? They say moderation and then demonstrate that they have no idea what moderation is.
It's actually about addiction, and not following that path is one of moderation. You really don't have much room to talk, you think the color red means fermentation.
Fred's Wife
Member
Ain't that a kicker!!!!!!! :laugh:
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
If we are to take Proverbs 23:31 as moderationists claim, we are allowed to get drunk but then put the wine away from us.
Problem is, Scripture tells us not to look upon the wine when it is fermented. There is a reason for that instruction. It is found in Proverbs 20:1... it deceives.
...then you can show us one translation that says what you said..
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The context shows that it is speaking of fermentation.
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