What! No Church?

[kyredneck]

....in an allegorical way:

1 Peter 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:​

Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

So therefore should we as well.​

Perhaps the phrase which is often used "the children of God" is a good compromise.​

HankD​

Excellent, IMO.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? shall a nation be brought forth at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66

 

[kyredneck]

Excellent, IMO.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? shall a nation be brought forth at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66

But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4:26,27

1 A Psalm of the sons of Korah; a Song. His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion More than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah
7 They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. Ps 87

For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. Ro 8:19

[OR, my apologies if I've rambled off topic here, but I do very strongly believe in an invisible, universal, body of Christ down through the ages. I've read Christianity described as a 'living organism' on this earth, to which I agree, and I believe it will be astounding to all when the extent of it is finally revealed.]

 

[kyredneck]

One of my favorites

Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken Hymn

Glorious things of thee are spoken,
Zion, city of our God!
He, Whose Word cannot be broken,
Formed thee for His own abode.
On the Rock of Ages founded,
What can shake thy sure repose?
With salvation’s walls surrounded,
Thou may’st smile at all thy foes.

See! the streams of living waters,
Springing from eternal love;
Well supply thy sons and daughters,
And all fear of want remove:
Who can faint while such a river
Ever flows their thirst t’assuage?
Grace, which like the Lord, the Giver,
Never fails from age to age.

Round each habitation hovering,
See the cloud and fire appear!
For a glory and a cov’ring
Showing that the Lord is near.
Thus deriving from our banner
Light by night and shade by day;
Safe they feed upon the manna
Which He gives them when they pray.

Blest inhabitants of Zion,
Washed in the Redeemer’s blood!
Jesus, Whom their souls rely on,
Makes them kings and priests to God.
’Tis His love His people raises,
Over self to reign as kings,
And as priests, His solemn praises
Each for a thank offering brings.

Savior, if of Zion’s city,
I through grace a member am,
Let the world deride or pity,
I will glory in Thy Name.
Fading is the worldling’s pleasure,
All his boasted pomp and show;
Solid joys and lasting treasure
None but Zion’s children know.

 

[kyredneck]

even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints, to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col1:26,27

 

[Tom Butler]

even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints, to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col1:26,27

Just because dispies interpret these verses as being the Church doesn't make it so. The big mystery is how one gets from "Christ in you" to the Church.

 

[Tom Butler]

...but I do very strongly believe in an invisible, universal, body of Christ down through the ages. I've read Christianity described as a 'living organism' on this earth, to which I agree, and I believe it will be astounding to all when the extent of it is finally revealed.]

Feel free to call the whole number of the saved Christianity, or the kingdom, or Christendom. But it's not the Church. It's invisible because it doesn't exist.

We all agree on the purpose of local congregations. What is the purpose of the Universal, Invisible Church? Besides being invisible.

 

[OldRegular]

Feel free to call the whole number of the saved Christianity, or the kingdom, or Christendom. But it's not the Church. It's invisible because it doesn't exist.

We all agree on the purpose of local congregations. What is the purpose of the Universal, Invisible Church? Besides being invisible.

Well for those who reject the idea that the total number of redeemed constitute what I call the Universal Church how about calling it ZION or SION. Or you could call it the New Jerusalem. Or the General Assembly of the Firstborn. I believe that would be Biblical.

I believe that the following Scripture refer to the Church as the total number of the redeemed:

Matthew 16:18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Surely no one would argue that every local body of believers that ever existed is still extant?

Acts 2:47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The local church determines membership which may include saved or unsaved. God determines who is truly saved. These he adds to the New Jerusalem , mount Zion, the General Assembly of the Firstborn, the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, or if you prefer the Universal Church.

Ephesians 1:19-23
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Surely no one would argue that these glorious words refer only to the Church at Ephesus no more than Ephesians 1:3-6 or 2:1-10 refer only to the Believers at Ephesus.

Ephesians 2:11-22
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15* Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The above passage is obviously referring to more than the local Church at Ephesus!


Ephesians 5:23-25; 27, 29, 32
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
29. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
32. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Jesus Christ is not a bigamist and he died only once!!!

 

[kyredneck]

Just because dispies interpret these verses as being the Church doesn't make it so.....

Tom, I'm not a dispie, but I do believe these to belong to the body of Christ, and that down through the ages in every nation. Whether the word Church is the correct term to ascribe to them, I don't know. I'll leave that to the exegesis types to define.

The big mystery is how one gets from "Christ in you" to the Church.

“Christ in you” infers that the effectual call, i.e regeneration, has occurred. Answering the Gospel call places one into the visible Church, which should be a translation, or a conversion, into a realm of joy, peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. But these folks may not be located in the proximity of a visible Church that carries the true sound of the gospel, with it's simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. There is no 'foretaste of Glory Divine' to be found there, only man-imposed burdens and man-polluted teachings, and the sheep are repulsed or driven away from it, just exactly as described in Ezekiel 34. They're 'lost sheep', not goats. Lost implies something that's out of place, not something bound for destruction. They're wheat, not tares that are destined for the fire. Wheat that would be gathered into the garner, if there's one to be found. I don't believe it's necessary to compass land and sea in search of 'lost sheep without a shepherd'. They're all around us.

.......What is the purpose of the Universal, Invisible Church? Besides being invisible.

Ultimately that is 100% Christ's call what He does with His own, but, IMHO, the visible church is the manifestation of the invisible; the tangible being the proof that the intangible exists. It's this invisible body of Christ that the visible Church is to draw from for it's members. Christ is the only life giver.

 

[Darrenss1]

Ultimately that is 100% Christ's call what He does with His own, but, IMHO, the visible church is the manifestation of the invisible; the tangible being the proof that the intangible exists. It's this invisible body of Christ that the visible Church is to draw from for it's members. Christ is the only life giver.

That's exactly how I see it. Those whom are part of the visible church have already been added to the invisible, universal church, the Body of Christ..etc Therefore as OR said is true, God adds true believers to HIS church and those true believers become also members of local churches (approved of for membership, ordinances) for service, for ministry, to reach the lost, to feed and equip the saints, for fellowship, for worship and prayer.

Darren

 

[Tom Butler]

Well for those who reject the idea that the total number of redeemed constitute what I call the Universal Church how about calling it ZION or SION. Or you could call it the New Jerusalem. Or the General Assembly of the Firstborn. I believe that would be Biblical.

Zion, New Jerusalem, General Assembly are all future, in heaven. There is no General Assembly or New Jerusalem on earth at this time. If there is, I missed the meeting.

I believe that the following Scripture refer to the Church as the total number of the redeemed:

Matthew 16:18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Surely no one would argue that every local body of believers that ever existed is still extant?

Jesus established his church during his ministry by selecting the twelve. It was a traveling band at first, finally locating at Jerusalem. It was the only one there was for a while.

Is the church you serve Christ's church? Mine is. They're both local congregations.

Acts 2:47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The local church determines membership which may include saved or unsaved. God determines who is truly saved. These he adds to the New Jerusalem , mount Zion, the General Assembly of the Firstborn, the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, or if you prefer the Universal Church.

No, in this case it is the church at Jerusalem to which the Lord added. Surely you don't hold that the Lord adds unsaved people to the local church?

It's a favorite tactic to argue that the local church has some unsaved people in it, but the Universal Church does not.

I'm not sure you really want to pursue this line of argument.

First, there may be unsaved people on my church's roll, but they are not really members because they were not scripturally baptized.

Second, the Universal Church is not exactly simon-pure. Its number is filled with people who believe error, actually heresy. It is severely divided. And basically useless in advancing the kingdom.

Ephesians 1:19-23
19. And what is the xceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Surely no one would argue that these glorious words refer only to the Church at Ephesus no more than Ephesians 1:3-6 or 2:1-10 refer only to the Believers at Ephesus.

Again, is Jesus the Head of your church, your congregation? Do you ever refer to your church as the body of Christ? Not just A body of Christ, but the body of Christ.

Also, consider the family. A generic term which takes expression in a real family. One may express concern about the breakdown of the family, but in reality, only real families break down. Same with the church. The generic term takes expression in a real, live congregation.

Ephesians 2:11-22
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15* Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The above passage is obviously referring to more than the local Church at Ephesus!

Looks pretty local to me. See generic vs specific argument above.

Ephesians 5:23-25; 27, 29, 32
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
29. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
32. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Jesus Christ is not a bigamist and he died only once!!!

Generic vs. specific. You can talk about the husband and the wife all day long, but there is no universal husband and no universal wife. There is only a real specific husband who loves a real specific wife.

When the Christ presents himself a spotless bride, when is that? Not on this earth, because it is certainly not spotless now. This is in heaven.

Also, was Paul wrong when he said specifically that Jesus shed his blood for the congregation at Ephesus (in Acts 20:28)? Did he die only for that assembly? And not for your home church, or mine? You wanna reconsider that bigamist line?

 

[kyredneck]

I suppose it's passages such as these that help give rise to the notion of a universal 'Church':

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:18

1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10

 

[HankD]

Hi Tom,

I thought it necessary to give a couple of responses to your reasoning.

I hope I am not causing further division but rather greater unity in that we understand each other as brethren and the scriptural reasons (though they may be off base) why we believe as we do.

Too often many of us take the explanations of our differences personally but I see that is not happening here as evidenced by the lack of ad hominems.

Feel free to call the whole number of the saved Christianity, or the kingdom, or Christendom. But it's not the Church. It's invisible because it doesn't exist.

It's called "invisible" because it is seen only by God. Only God knows the wheat from the tares sown among us in the world and in our local churches.

We all agree on the purpose of local congregations. What is the purpose of the Universal, Invisible Church? Besides being invisible.

To glorify God: (While the language of the following passage is allegorical it is "universal") and to offer "spiritual sacrifices" in the second passage.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.​

Again, I wish there were some other terminology than "universal" and "invisible" since there is no scriptural reference as such but only allegorical/metaphoric, however neither is "local church" as a phrase found in the Scripture but as an a priori or self evident concept as is the "invisible".​

There are liberal, cultic, 7th day, Catholic, etc and even probably many "good local churches" which have no regenerate individuals or only 1 or a small handful. Are each of these the Body of Christ?​

The concept of the "universal" church is the collective af all those born-again individuals to date scripturally called "the Church of the Firstborn".​

"universal" and/or "invisible" is the name given to it at least for convenience sake as is the "local church".​

Tom, you mentioned the future as applicable to those allegories and metaphors concerning the concept of the "universal" or "invisible" church and this is true but it is because they are yet being built (stone by living stone) as hopefully is happening in every "local" church.​

1 Peter 2​

(addressed to believers in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia and no specific "local church").​

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.​

Again, this does not minimize the importance of a Bible centered local church where at least most if not all the members are regenerate.​

HankD​

 

[annsni]

Zion, New Jerusalem, General Assembly are all future, in heaven. There is no General Assembly or New Jerusalem on earth at this time. If there is, I missed the meeting.

Jesus established his church during his ministry by selecting the twelve. It was a traveling band at first, finally locating at Jerusalem. It was the only one there was for a while.

Is the church you serve Christ's church? Mine is. They're both local congregations.



No, in this case it is the church at Jerusalem to which the Lord added. Surely you don't hold that the Lord adds unsaved people to the local church?

It's a favorite tactic to argue that the local church has some unsaved people in it, but the Universal Church does not.

I'm not sure you really want to pursue this line of argument.

First, there may be unsaved people on my church's roll, but they are not really members because they were not scripturally baptized.

Second, the Universal Church is not exactly simon-pure. Its number is filled with people who believe error, actually heresy. It is severely divided. And basically useless in advancing the kingdom.

Again, is Jesus the Head of your church, your congregation? Do you ever refer to your church as the body of Christ? Not just A body of Christ, but the body of Christ.

Also, consider the family. A generic term which takes expression in a real family. One may express concern about the breakdown of the family, but in reality, only real families break down. Same with the church. The generic term takes expression in a real, live congregation.

Looks pretty local to me. See generic vs specific argument above.


Generic vs. specific. You can talk about the husband and the wife all day long, but there is no universal husband and no universal wife. There is only a real specific husband who loves a real specific wife.

When the Christ presents himself a spotless bride, when is that? Not on this earth, because it is certainly not spotless now. This is in heaven.

Also, was Paul wrong when he said specifically that Jesus shed his blood for the congregation at Ephesus (in Acts 20:28)? Did he die only for that assembly? And not for your home church, or mine? You wanna reconsider that bigamist line?

Can you show me where Christ has more than one bride or that there is more than one body of Christ in Scripture?

 

[Tom Butler]

Can you show me where Christ has more than one bride or that there is more than one body of Christ in Scripture?

The one bride of Christ will be presented as pure and chaste in heaven. We're talking future here.

Let me ask a question for clarification. Are you saying that a local assembly of believers can't be called a body of Christ? Or the body of Christ? How do you deal with I Cor 12:27, where Paul describes the congregation at Corinth this way: "Now YE are THE body of Christ..."?

And I"ll repeat my comment about Acts 20:28, where Paul urges the elders of the church at Ephesus to "feed THE church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood." The church to which Paul refers is the Ephesian congregation over which the Holy Spirit had made the elders overseers.

I still think that what some call the Church is really the kingdom. As in Rev 1:6 ".....and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen."

 

[Tom Butler]

I hope I am not causing further division but rather greater unity in that we understand each other as brethren and the scriptural reasons (though they may be off base) why we believe as we do.

Hank, we're not having division here, we having a discussion among brothers and sisters. I appreciate your spirit.

I'm not ignoring your post, but will be a way from here for a while, and I'll try to respond to it later this afternoon.

 

[annsni]

The one bride of Christ will be presented as pure and chaste in heaven. We're talking future here.

Let me ask a question for clarification. Are you saying that a local assembly of believers can't be called a body of Christ? Or the body of Christ? How do you deal with I Cor 12:27, where Paul describes the congregation at Corinth this way: "Now YE are THE body of Christ..."?

And I"ll repeat my comment about Acts 20:28, where Paul urges the elders of the church at Ephesus to "feed THE church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood." The church to which Paul refers is the Ephesian congregation over which the Holy Spirit had made the elders overseers.

I still think that what some call the Church is really the kingdom. As in Rev 1:6 ".....and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Ephesians 5 is really clear IMO that there is ONE church that is active today.

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor

Christ is the head of the church (singular)
His body is the church (both singular)
Christ is the church's Savior (singular article)
The church submits to Christ as a wife submits to her husband (unless there are multiple wives allowed, which we know they are not, there is one wife, one husband, one church, one Christ)
Christ gave Himself up for the church (singular) and not churches (plural). Which church did Christ give Himself up for? Yours? Mine? Only the one in Jerusalem? Maybe the one in Ephesus.
Presenting which church to Himself? The one He chose as His bride - the church, the body of Christ - as a whole.

 

[HankD]

Hank, we're not having division here, we having a discussion among brothers and sisters. I appreciate your spirit.

I'm not ignoring your post, but will be a way from here for a while, and I'll try to respond to it later this afternoon.

OK , thanks Tom, I too appreciate you good demeanor.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Zion, New Jerusalem, General Assembly are all future, in heaven. There is no General Assembly or New Jerusalem on earth at this time. If there is, I missed the meeting.

I could almost agree with you concerning the New Jerusalem and General Assembly but I won't. In the passage from which these words are taken the Apostle Paul is contrasting events at Mount Sinai [an earthly event in which the law was given and the people could not approach the Mount] which represents the Old Covenant with the New Covenant instituted by the death of Jesus Christ and manifested in the Church.

The passage reads as follows:

Hebrews 12:18-24
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

When do we come to Jesus Christ? If we don't come in this life we will not come at all!-

Surely you don't hold that the Lord adds unsaved people to the local church?

That remark really isn't worthy of comment but I will for your edification.

God does not vote anyone into the local church, at least I haven't seen Him. Have you? And you still live!!!!!:thumbs: The local church does add unsaved people to its rolls. That is the reason I said that the statement: And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved, has reference to the total number of the redeemed, the Universal Church or Zion or Sion or>>>>>!

Second, the Universal Church is not exactly simon-pure. Its number is filled with people who believe error, actually heresy. It is severely divided. And basically useless in advancing the kingdom.

When God makes me judge over His elect who have been redeemed then I will feel free to comment on the above remarks.:laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

Ephesians 5 is really clear IMO that there is ONE church that is active today.

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor

Christ is the head of the church (singular)
His body is the church (both singular)
Christ is the church's Savior (singular article)
The church submits to Christ as a wife submits to her husband (unless there are multiple wives allowed, which we know they are not, there is one wife, one husband, one church, one Christ)
Christ gave Himself up for the church (singular) and not churches (plural). Which church did Christ give Himself up for? Yours? Mine? Only the one in Jerusalem? Maybe the one in Ephesus.
Presenting which church to Himself? The one He chose as His bride - the church, the body of Christ - as a whole.

He was writing to the Ephesians, the same elders that he was writing to in Acts 20:14:,28, where he states the "church of God which he purchased with his own blood." That refers to the church at Ephesus.
The same is true here. Christ is the head of the church. It is singular because there is only one church at Ephesus--the church of Ephesus, the one that he is writing to. However, the rule of hermeneutics is: one interpretation, but many applications. The application here is that we can apply this passage to all local churches. Christ is the head of all local churches just as he was the head of the church at Ephesus; just as he "purchased the church at Ephesus with his own blood."

 

[Tom Butler]

Hi Tom,

I thought it necessary to give a couple of responses to your reasoning.

I hope I am not causing further division but rather greater unity in that we understand each other as brethren and the scriptural reasons (though they may be off base) why we believe as we do.

Too often many of us take the explanations of our differences personally but I see that is not happening here as evidenced by the lack of ad hominems.

It's called "invisible" because it is seen only by God. Only God knows the wheat from the tares sown among us in the world and in our local churches.

Yes, God does know. It begs the question why does it have to be invisible? The invisible hides its light under a basket, which Jesus says his followers should not do.

To glorify God: (While the language of the following passage is allegorical it is "universal") and to offer "spiritual sacrifices" in the second passage.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.​

Good counsel by Jesus for his followers, but a stretch to make it refer to the "Church."

Again, I wish there were some other terminology than "universal" and "invisible" since there is no scriptural reference as such but only allegorical/metaphoric, however neither is "local church" as a phrase found in the Scripture but as an a priori or self evident concept as is the "invisible".

There are liberal, cultic, 7th day, Catholic, etc and even probably many "good local churches" which have no regenerate individuals or only 1 or a small handful. Are each of these the Body of Christ?​

No, they are not.
​

The concept of the "universal" church is the collective af all those born-again individuals to date scripturally called "the Church of the Firstborn".

"universal" and/or "invisible" is the name given to it at least for convenience sake as is the "local church"​

A better concept is that it is the kingdom. A church spoken of in the institutional or generic sense must of necessity express itself in an assembly of real people. An assembly assembles.

​

Tom, you mentioned the future as applicable to those allegories and metaphors concerning the concept of the "universal" or "invisible" church and this is true but it is because they are yet being built (stone by living stone) as hopefully is happening in every "local" church.

1 Peter 2​

(addressed to believers in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia and no specific "local church").​

Paul wrote a letter to the congregation in Galatia. The lack of a specific letter to the others does not mean there weren't any. In fact, wherever Paul went, he established local congregations.
​

]2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Again, this does not minimize the importance of a Bible centered local church where at least most if not all the members are regenerate.​

HankD​

This passage allows for this to be addressed to individuals.