The mystery of the Jews relationship with God

[stilllearning]

By far, the biggest problem some people seem to have, in the area of eschatology, boils down to their rejection of the Jews, as God’s people.
(And this is clearly established, in Romans 11

This relationship fills in all the blanks:
By establishing dispensationalism: Explaining a pre-tribulation rapture: etc.
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Invariably everyone that has a wrong view of the future, also has a wrong view of the Jews.

 

[Aaron]

Everyone has a relationship with God—everyone. Some know Him as Father, others know Him as Judge.

The unbelieving Jew is no different than the unbelieving Gentile, neither the believing Jew than the believing Gentile. No difference, personally, nationally, covenantally (if that's a word), or in any other way.

 

[kyredneck]

....the Jews, as God’s people.
(And this is clearly established, in Romans 11.....Invariably everyone that has a wrong view of the future, also has a wrong view of the Jews.

What a crock..........

Note the trips.........

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

 

[OldRegular]

Everyone has a relationship with God—everyone. Some know Him as Father, others know Him as Judge.

The unbelieving Jew is no different than the unbelieving Gentile, neither the believing Jew than the believing Gentile. No difference, personally, nationally, covenantally (if that's a word), or in any other way.

Right on!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Everyone has a relationship with God—everyone. Some know Him as Father, others know Him as Judge.

The unbelieving Jew is no different than the unbelieving Gentile, neither the believing Jew than the believing Gentile. No difference, personally, nationally, covenantally (if that's a word), or in any other way.

Aaron, you nailed it! It amazes me how some people think everyone was wrong until the time of John Darby.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Aaron

You said.......

“The unbelieving Jew is no different than the unbelieving Gentile, neither the believing Jew than the believing Gentile. No difference, personally, nationally, covenantally (if that's a word), or in any other way.”

You are right, about the relationship that the unsaved have with God.
But you are wrong in placing the Jews in the same category as the gentiles.

They have a relationship with God, that is based upon His promise to them:
A promise that He will not break........
Psalms 89:28-34
V.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
V.29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
V.30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
V.31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
V.32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
V.33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
V.34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
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And because of this promise, God was not able to condemn them, when they rejected Christ......
Romans 11:7
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

Sure enough, “the election” are those believing Jews, who trusted Christ;
But look at what happened to the rest....”and the rest were blinded”.

They weren’t condemned to hell, and they weren’t made the same as the gentiles, but they were blinded.
And later on in this chapter we find out way....
Romans 11:25-26
V.25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
V.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And why would God do this.......
Romans 11:29
“For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.”

And what if we don’t understand this; Big deal........
Romans 11:33
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”
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So the unbelieving Jews, are being blinded for a season, so that God does not have to judge them.

 

[Grasshopper]

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[OldRegular]

Hello Aaron

You said.......

You are right, about the relationship that the unsaved have with God.
But you are wrong in placing the Jews in the same category as the gentiles.

They have a relationship with God, that is based upon His promise to them:
A promise that He will not break........
Psalms 89:28-34
V.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
V.29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
V.30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
V.31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
V.32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
V.33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
V.34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
--------------------------------------------------
And because of this promise, God was not able to condemn them, when they rejected Christ......
Romans 11:7
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

Sure enough, “the election” are those believing Jews, who trusted Christ;
But look at what happened to the rest....”and the rest were blinded”.

They weren’t condemned to hell, and they weren’t made the same as the gentiles, but they were blinded.
And later on in this chapter we find out way....
Romans 11:25-26
V.25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
V.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And why would God do this.......
Romans 11:29
“For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.”

And what if we don’t understand this; Big deal........
Romans 11:33
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”
--------------------------------------------------
So the unbelieving Jews, are being blinded for a season, so that God does not have to judge them.

The Deliverer came out of Sion 2000 years ago. His Name is Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.

 

[OldRegular]

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Strange that this passage of Scripture is missing from so many Bibles. Is it a typesetters error or is that old serpent Satan at work?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Fortunately it is included in the many versions I have purchased!

 

[Winman]

So the unbelieving Jews, are being blinded for a season, so that God does not have to judge them.

This is not saying all Jews will be saved, we know from scripture that not all Jews are saved.

Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Many of the Jews died in their sins and were lost, Judas Iscariot for example.

But there will be Jews who turn to Christ in the future. These are the true Jews as others have shown in Rom 2:28-29. A Jew is not a true Jew according to the flesh, but those who follow the faith of Abraham and trust in Christ.

I personally believe these Jews who will trust on Christ are foreknown to God. And it is when the last of these come to Christ that he will return (the millennium)

But Paul was never saying that all Jews according to the flesh would be saved as shown in Romans 9.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It is not all the Jews by the flesh who will be saved, it is those Jews that are the children of Abraham by the promise through faith in Christ. All of these Jews who will trust on Christ will be saved.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

But even before this, the fulness of the Gentiles must be brought in.

 

[Revmitchell]

om 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Paul is either talking about how the church can lose its salvation (those who have been cut off) or he is talking about the nation of Israel and its different economy than the church. Since the church cannot lose its salvation then the passage is clear. Romans 2:28,29 speak to the church and those who are saved not Israel who has been cut off.

 

[OldRegular]

Paul is either talking about how the church can lose its salvation (those who have been cut off) or he is talking about the nation of Israel and its different economy than the church. Since the church cannot lose its salvation then the passage is clear. Romans 2:28,29 speak to the church and those who are saved not Israel who has been cut off.

The economy of the nation Israel was permanently ended with the advent of Jesus Christ. They had fulfilled their part in God's purpose of Salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

The economy of the nation Israel was permanently ended with the advent of Jesus Christ. They had fulfilled their part in God's purpose of Salvation.

Wasn't it you who suggested that the church began with Israel?

 

[canadyjd]

You are right, about the relationship that the unsaved have with God.

But you are wrong in placing the Jews in the same category as the gentiles.

Paul placed the Jews in the same category as the gentiles.

Eph. 2:14 "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall. (15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace, (16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,...."

Scripture tells us that both Jew and Gentile are now "one new man" before God. Not only that, it is Jesus Christ's work on the cross that has reconciled both groups to God as one body.

Concerning the passage in Romans, it is clear that Paul is establishing the fact that the people who will be saved are those who are "children of the promise" that comprise both Jews and Gentiles.

When Paul says "all Israel will be saved", he is saying that the Jews were hardened so the gospel would go to the Gentiles (bringing the "children of the promise" that were among the gentiles to salvation), and thus "all Israel will be saved".

The context is clear, those that are children of the promise, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, are considered the "Israel" of God. That is why, once the gentiles are saved, "all Israel will be saved".

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Paul placed the Jews in the same category as the gentiles.

Eph. 2:14 "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall. (15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace, (16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,...."

Scripture tells us that both Jew and Gentile are now "one new man" before God. Not only that, it is Jesus Christ's work on the cross that has reconciled both groups to God as one body.

Concerning the passage in Romans, it is clear that Paul is establishing the fact that the people who will be saved are those who are "children of the promise" that comprise both Jews and Gentiles.

When Paul says "all Israel will be saved", he is saying that the Jews were hardened so the gospel would go to the Gentiles (bringing the "children of the promise" that were among the gentiles to salvation), and thus "all Israel will be saved".

The context is clear, those that are children of the promise, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, are considered the "Israel" of God. That is why, once the gentiles are saved, "all Israel will be saved".

peace to youraying:

That is exactly what Paul is not saying:


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Winman

Sorry for the delay in responding: I have been away all day, and am now recovering from black Friday.
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You quoted me as saying......

“So the unbelieving Jews, are being blinded for a season, so that God does not have to judge them.”

And you said........

“This is not saying all Jews will be saved, we know from scripture that not all Jews are saved.”

I never meant to say anything about “all the Jews”:

There are actually three kinds of Jews:
(1)Those who have or will accept Christ and are born again:
(2)Those who are being blinded, because God knows their heart:
(3)And those who are Jews, in name only, and are actually Gentiles.
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As for “why” this is:
Well, the first group, are those who God has elected to be part of the Body of Christ, therefore their eyes were opened, and they saw the truth about Christ.

The second group, are those who are not elected to be in the Church, but because God has obligated Himself, by His promise to them.
(These are the ones who will make up the 144,000 Jews, we find in Revelation.)

And the third group, are simply pretenders; Who don’t have any real relationship at all, with God as LORD.
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Now in the local Church, we have a similar situation;
We have two groups....
(1) Those Church members who are truly saved, having been born again;
(2) And those who are unsaved; Simply being “Christian”, in name only.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Revmitchell

You said........

“Paul is either talking about how the church can lose its salvation (those who have been cut off) or he is talking about the nation of Israel and its different economy than the church. Since the church cannot lose its salvation then the passage is clear. Romans 2:28,29 speak to the church and those who are saved not Israel who has been cut off.”

In light of.......

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

You have brought up a very interesting question;
I.E. Is being “cut off”, the same as losing your salvation?

Well, as we both know, no one can ever lose there salvation, so it must mean something else.

In light of Romans 11:, for the Jews it meant, being blinded.
So therefore, when it talks about a member of the Body of Christ being cut off, than it must be talking about the same thing.
(And I can think of several passages, where we can see a Christian being blinded.)
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But then you brought up Romans 2:28,29, as an answer to this question:
Romans 2:28-29
V.28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
V.29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Thus saying, that those Jews that were cut off, must not have been God’s people in the first place.
(Well we know that this isn’t the case, because they are grafted back in, later.)
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But I do believe that this passage(Romans 2:28-29), does give some light, to the statement that I made to Winman earlier.......

There are actually three kinds of Jews:
(1)Those who have or will accept Christ and are born again:
(2)Those who are being blinded, because God knows their heart:
(3)And those who are Jews, in name only, and are actually Gentiles.

This is a reference to the different kinds of Jews there are:
(There are some Jews, who are circumcised in there heart
Making them eternally God’s people, in some mysterious way.
It is from this group of Jews, that some will be elected to trust Christ.
But the rest of these true Jews, are been blinded, so that God will not have to judge them.

And these other Jews, which are only “Jews outwardly”, are simply pretenders, and are actually Gentiles.
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Isn’t this an interesting subject.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello OldRegular

You said.........

“The economy of the nation Israel was permanently ended with the advent of Jesus Christ. They had fulfilled their part in God's purpose of Salvation.”

Well, you are half right.

God’s use of the Jews, in providing Salvation for the world, has been completed.
But God is not finished with the Jews.

This is kind of what I was talking about in my OP, when I said........

“By far, the biggest problem some people seem to have, in the area of eschatology, boils down to their rejection of the Jews, as God’s people.”

The Jews are still God’s people, in some mysterious way.
(I keep saying that, because I don’t have all the answers yet.)

And when anybody tries to take the Jews totally out of the picture, there understanding of future events, is effected.
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If you say, “The economy of the nation Israel has permanently ended”, than you will have to give up trying to understand Revelation or Daniel.

Because in these two books and many, many other places, God makes it clear, that He is not through with Israel(the Jew).

 

[Revmitchell]

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.