The mystery of the Jews relationship with God

[canadyjd]

That is exactly what Paul is not saying:


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

So, the gentiles are grafted into the same root as the Jews. They become part of the same vine. They are not a "separate" vine, but part of the same vine (i.e. the children of promise).

And I notice you didn't address the passage from Eph. which clearly states that the Jews and the gentiles have become one new man in Christ because of His work on the cross, and that they will now be presented to God as one body.

I don't see any mention of a separate future for the Jews in that passage.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:26 ...."and thus all Israel will be saved;..."

Clearly, Paul is referring to Gentiles that have been "grafted in" and are therefore considered part of "Israel" (i.e. children of the promise), for he says once the fullness of the gentiles has occurred "...and thus all Israel will be saved;".....

.....meaning both the "Israel" from among the Jews and the "Israel" from among the gentiles....the "remnant", the "elect", the "children of the promise."

That is consistent with Paul's teaching in Eph. that Christ's work on the cross has made both groups into one new man, reconciled to God by the power of Holy Spirit. There is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore. There are only those that are saved and those that are lost from among both groups.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

So, the gentiles are grafted into the same root as the Jews. They become part of the same vine. They are not a "separate" vine, but part of the same vine (i.e. the children of promise).

This is false. Grafted into the vine they once were part of but are now broken off.



And I notice you didn't address the passage from Eph. which clearly states that the Jews and the gentiles have become one new man in Christ because of His work on the cross, and that they will now be presented to God as one body.

I don't see any mention of a separate future for the Jews in that passage.

peace to youraying:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi canadyjd

You were talking about Romans 11:25, and the statement.......
“until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”

And you said........

“Clearly, Paul is referring to Gentiles that have been "grafted in" and are therefore considered part of "Israel"..........

No: After the Babylonian captivity, the Jews went back to Israel, but they were still under Babylonian control.

And to this very day, they are still under the control of Gentiles.
(This is part of God’s Judgement upon them, as talked about in Daniel 9

And this will continue until the mid-point of the Tribulation period, when the nation turns to God and recognizes Jesus as the Messiah.
--------------------------------------------------
The “fullness of the Gentiles”, is kind of talking about, when the wickedness of this unsaved world, reaches the point where God can’t stand it anymore!

 

[OldRegular]

And this will continue until the mid-point of the Tribulation period, when the nation turns to God and recognizes Jesus as the Messiah.

And your Scriptural basis for this is?

The “fullness of the Gentiles”, is kind of talking about, when the wickedness of this unsaved world, reaches the point where God can’t stand it anymore!

And your Scriptural basis for this is?

 

[OldRegular]

Wasn't it you who suggested that the church began with Israel?

I believe I made the following post:

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

All the redeemed of all ages would predate Israel.

:

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe I made the following post:

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

All the redeemed of all ages would predate Israel.

:

yea and your interpretation of that has been corrected multiple times. But that wasn't the one I was thinking of.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello OldRegular

You asked me to provide Scriptural support, for my statements:

I appreciate being kept honest.
--------------------------------------------------
I said.......

“And this will continue until the mid-point of the Tribulation period, when the nation turns to God and recognizes Jesus as the Messiah.”

Revelation 11:11-13
V.11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
V.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
V.13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

This is a very familiar passage, where the two witnesses, who will be killed by the anitchrist and allowed to lay on that street in Jerusalem for 3½ days......

Here is when the LORD lifts the blindness, that he has placed upon the Jews:
When these two witnesses will come back to life and float up into heaven, being followed by a great earth quake:

The moment that God lifts this blindness is recorded in V.13
“and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven”
--------------------------------------------------
I also said........

“The “fullness of the Gentiles”, is kind of talking about, when the wickedness of this unsaved world, reaches the point where God can’t stand it anymore!”

Revelation 14:13-20

V.13 ¶ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is a message to those on the earth, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, who refused to receive the mark of the beastsee the context)

V.14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
V.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
V.16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This was the harvesting of the faithful believers from the earth:
(Who will suffer martyrdom for there refusal to receive the mark of the beast.)

V.17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
V.18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
V.19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
V.20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

This is the other harvest: The death of the antichrist and his armies and the other wicked people on the earth.

When I talked about man’s wickedness, reaching the point where God can’t stand it anymore; This is what I was talking about........
V.18 “...gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe”

Man’s wickedness, is like a cluster of grapes, that is getting riper and riper, and one day it will be fully ripe.
This is what I interpret as “the fullness of the Gentiles”.

And this comes at about the same time, that God lifts Israel’s blindness.
So I connected the two.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I believe I made the following post:

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

All the redeemed of all ages would predate Israel.

yea and your interpretation of that has been corrected multiple times. But that wasn't the one I was thinking of.

That statement does not lend itself to various shades of interpretation so you are incorrect. It has not been corrected even one time since it is true, taken, as Ryrie would say at "face value".

I am curious how this ever passed given that so many Southern Baptists have embraced the erroneous teachings of Scofield/Darby or should I say Darby/Scofield.

Also I think I said that the Church began when the first person was redeemed and I did not even need the SBC definition of the Church to convince me of that. Furthermore, that first person redeemed was not Jacob/Israel. It was not even Abraham though he is referred to as the father of the faithful and friend of God.

 

[OldRegular]

stilllearning

You need to read an exposition of Revelation written by someone other than a dispensationalist. The first thing you must understand about Revelation is that it was written to the 1st Century Church but as does all Scripture it has a message for the Church since then.

Revelation 11:11-13 says nothing about the Jews turning to God and recognizing Jesus Christ as the Messiah. God saves people one at a time. Those Jews who will be saved will be saved one at a time just like the Gentiles.

Of course I believe the remainder of your explanation is faulty!

 

[canadyjd]

No: After the Babylonian captivity, the Jews went back to Israel, but they were still under Babylonian control.

And to this very day, they are still under the control of Gentiles.
(This is part of God’s Judgement upon them, as talked about in Daniel 9

And this will continue until the mid-point of the Tribulation period, when the nation turns to God and recognizes Jesus as the Messiah.

The “fullness of the Gentiles”, is kind of talking about, when the wickedness of this unsaved world, reaches the point where God can’t stand it anymore!

The context of Romans 11 does not support your interpretation.

The context of Romans, especially Romans 11, is dealing with salvation and the relationship that exists between Jew and Gentile in the plan of salvation that has consumated in Jesus Christ.

The phrase "the fullness of the Gentiles" must be understood in its context.

Romans 11:11 "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. (12) "Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment by!"

Paul says in Romans 11:25 "For I do not want you , brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; (26) and thus all Israel will be saved;..."

Clearly, the context is dealing with salvation going to the Gentiles. Therefore, the phrase "the fulness of the Gentiles" must be dealing with the fulness of the Gentiles in relation to salvation. After that fulness of salvation has occurred, the hardening will be lifted and many Jews will come to salvation in Jesus Christ... becoming part of His church, His bride, His body, His one new man....

Again, I notice you didn't address the clear teaching in Eph. that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled into one new man by Christ's work on the cross and that both shall be presented to the Father in one body by the power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, I notice you didn't address the clear teaching in Eph. that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled into one new man by Christ's work on the cross and that both shall be presented to the Father in one body by the power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

In the church economy which has nothing to do with the Israel economy. You say the Ephesians passage supports your position I say it does not. I say you have taken Romans 11 completely out of its context as it is speaking of the breaking away of Israel and that they are blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles. Or in other words the church as the church is now the conduit that God uses to reveal Himself where as Israel was. When God takes the church out of the way then Israel will once again be the conduit.

 

[OldRegular]

In the church economy which has nothing to do with the Israel economy.

As I said earlier: The economy of the nation Israel was permanently ended with the advent of Jesus Christ. They had fulfilled their part in God's purpose of Salvation.

When God takes the church out of the way then Israel will once again be the conduit.

God will not take the Church out. Jesus christ will return, there will be a general resurrection of all the dead followed by the Great White Throne Judgment. It is that simple. No elaborate fictional eschatology based on a faulty interpretation of Daniel!

 

[canadyjd]

In the church economy which has nothing to do with the Israel economy. You say the Ephesians passage supports your position I say it does not.

Words have meaning in the context they are written.

You are ignoring the context of Romans 11 and of Eph. 2, which clearly states there is no long "Jew and Gentile", but "one new man" reconciled to God the Father through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be presented to the Father by the power of Holy Spirit.

To believe there is a separate future for Israel is to believe the peace that Jesus Christ brought to Jew and Gentile will be undone. That the "one new man" will once again be split into two different groups.

For that to be true, the work of Jesus on the cross must be nullified.

Eph. 2:18 "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father".

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Words have meaning in the context they are written.

You are ignoring the context of Romans 11 and of Eph. 2, which clearly states there is no long "Jew and Gentile", but "one new man" reconciled to God the Father through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be presented to the Father by the power of Holy Spirit.

To believe there is a separate future for Israel is to believe the peace that Jesus Christ brought to Jew and Gentile will be undone. That the "one new man" will once again be split into two different groups.

For that to be true, the work of Jesus on the cross must be nullified.

Eph. 2:18 "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father".

peace to youraying:

That is ridiculous. You are overlooking the context when scripture says that Israel is currently blind until the fullness of the Gentiles. v.25 Then in verse 28 Paul makes a distinction between the church and Israel.

 

[canadyjd]

That is ridiculous. You are overlooking the context when scripture says that Israel is currently blind until the fullness of the Gentiles. v.25 Then in verse 28 Paul makes a distinction between the church and Israel.

The passage doesn't say "Israel is currently blind". It says that a "partial hardening has happened to Israel."

If Paul makes a distinction between the church and Israel, he is contradicting himself in this same letter.

Romans 10:12 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek."

You are making a distinction when scripture says there is none.

And you continue to refuse to engage the text of Eph. 2 which clearly states that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled and brought before God the Father as "one new man" in the power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

The passage doesn't say "Israel is currently blind". It says that a "partial hardening has happened to Israel."

If Paul makes a distinction between the church and Israel, he is contradicting himself in this same letter.

Romans 10:12 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek."

You are making a distinction when scripture says there is none.

And you continue to refuse to engage the text of Eph. 2 which clearly states that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled and brought before God the Father as "one new man" in the power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

No I have already "engaged" it when I said Paul si speaking of the church. And that is in no way contradictory when we are speaking of two different economies.

 

[OldRegular]

No I have already "engaged" it when I said Paul si speaking of the church. And that is in no way contradictory when we are speaking of two different economies.

You may be speaking of two different economies but Scripture doesn't. The Deliverer came our of Sion 2000 years ago!

 

[canadyjd]

No I have already "engaged" it when I said Paul si speaking of the church. And that is in no way contradictory when we are speaking of two different economies.

OK, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

Let's look at Eph. and you can explain to me what you mean and how I am wrong by answering a few questions about the text.

Eph. 2:11 "Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision", which is performed in the flesh by human hands---

(12)remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

Paul identifies two groups. The first group is the Gentiles. The second group is the "commonwealth of Israel".

Do you agree that the text of Eph. 2:11-12 identifies these two separate groups? If the two groups are not the "Gentiles" and the "commonwealth of Israel", please show me why not?

Eph. 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

Those who "formerly were far off" must refer to Gentiles. Do you agree?

What brought them near is the blood of Christ. Do you agree? If not, then what?

What were they brought near to? It must mean they are brought near the commonwealth of Israel, along with the convenants of promise mentioned in v.12. Do you agree? If not, then what are they brought near to?

Eph. 2:14 "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the divinding wall,"

The context has already been established. The two groups are "Gentiles" and the "commonwealth of Israel". These two groups have been made one group. Do you agree? If not, please explain to me how it means something else?

Eph. 2:15 "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace,"

v. 15 tells us the "how" the two groups have been made one group. The Law of commandments has been "abolished". The Law of commandments must refer to the O.T. Laws that have been fulfilled in Christ, and both groups are saved by grace through faith (v.8)

The result of the abolishing of the law is that "peace" has been established between the two groups (the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel).

v.16 "and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity"

The two that are reconciled "in one body" to God are the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel. Do you agree? If not, why not?

The way the two groups (the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel) are reconciled is "through the cross". There, it is Christ's work on the cross that has reconciled the two groups, abolished the "Law of commandments" and brought peace. Do you agree? If not, why not?

v.18 "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father"

So, now through Jesus Christ, both groups (the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel) have access to the Father by the Power of Holy Spirit.

Do you agree? If not, why not?

Now, let me see if I can accurately articulate your position. You believe Eph. 2 is speaking of the "economy of the church", which will be different in the 1000 year reign? In the 1000 year reign, the Gentiles and the Jews will once again be separate. Do I understand you correctly?

What I have said, therefore, is that if the Gentiles are separate from the commonwealth of Israel in the 1000 year reign, the work of Jesus Christ on the cross must be nullified, because these verses clearly say Jesus made peace between the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel and that both groups have become one new man, to be presented to God the Father as one body in the Spirit.

When exactly does the one new man get separated again into two different groups? And why?

Since Jesus has brought peace and reconcilation, why is that peace abolished to re-establish the Law of commandments which Christ "abolished" by His work on the cross?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Since Jesus has brought peace and reconcilation, why is that peace abolished to re-establish the Law of commandments which Christ "abolished" by His work on the cross?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

peace to youraying:

No one said it was any such thing. And it is not necessary to see it as such based on two economies. The "economy" is not about the law. Get passed it. At this point you have done nothing to address Romans 8:25-29. And the Ephesian passage has zero effect on the two economies. The economies are not about the law but about how God reveals himself to the lost world.