Saddleback

[SolaSaint]

Hi all,

Several years ago I was in a SBC church that almost completely surrendered it's whole ministry into the Saddleback theme by Rick Warren, from the parking lot to the pulpit. I know many other baptist churches as well as Methodist and Christian churches followed suit at this time. I don't have much conversation with any of my old baptist friends anymore, so I'll ask in here.

Is this Purpose Driven program still in full swing among baptist churches, or has it died out.

 

[fbcodr]

reply

I know it's not as popular as it was, but I'm not as sure about it dying out yet or not. It's very sad when Churches try to model something that the Lord has not willed for them. :godisgood::1_grouphug:

 

[SolaSaint]

Amen, that was the main reason we left this church. They favored anything by Warren and entertainment over preaching and teaching God's word. They weren't totally sold out, but at the time I had heard many other churches were following Warrens programs. I know many even preached sermons from Warren on a weekly schedule. Also the marketing schemes they used certainly did fill the seats, but I'm afraid many churches failed to preach the whole gospel to them. I feel we have seen a weakened SBC partially due to this, but on the other end of the spectrum I also see a return to God honoring churches as the Puritans did in early America. I would rather see us head in that direction.

 

[preachinjesus]

Is this Purpose Driven program still in full swing among baptist churches, or has it died out.

There are a lot of churches that I know who have brought in elements of the Saddleback philosophy in parts, large pieces, or even a whole strategic focus. It has really helped some ministries.

I also know other churches utilizing Willow Creek, North Point, and other models to strategically place their ministries. They all have useful points.

We can learn from all models out there. I'm not a fan of churches in, say, New England embracing the Saddleback model lock, stock, and barrell because it might not work for their context. One of the most valuable times I ever spent in ministry was taking a year and a half in a program to travel across the southeast United States and examine churches, their programs, policies, and models to see how they worked and the background thought behind them.

I will say that many SBC churches are still utilizing a Purpose Driven model in ways but aren't talking about it that much. To his credit, Rick Warren has openly said that he doesn't want churches executing replicas of his church in their context without finding places to change appropriately. There is humility in that view imho.

 

[fbcodr]

I couldn't agree with you more!!! When you pastor a SBC Church in Northwest Ohio you see how many things in California or the latest poplular Church fad doesn't apply where you are!!!:thumbs:

 

[fbcodr]

Amen, that was the main reason we left this church. They favored anything by Warren and entertainment over preaching and teaching God's word. They weren't totally sold out, but at the time I had heard many other churches were following Warrens programs. I know many even preached sermons from Warren on a weekly schedule. Also the marketing schemes they used certainly did fill the seats, but I'm afraid many churches failed to preach the whole gospel to them. I feel we have seen a weakened SBC partially due to this, but on the other end of the spectrum I also see a return to God honoring churches as the Puritans did in early America. I would rather see us head in that direction.

I agree whole heartily with you about this!!!:thumbs:

 

[SolaSaint]

Yes I agree and please don't get me wrong, I do think Warren's heart is in the right place, but I do feel most any other church besides Saddleback doesn't need to sell out 100% to the PD program. There are some real good things I liked about this program or model, but the few I disliked were usually when it comes down to speaking the truth in the gospel to lost people, that is where I departed, because they didn't do this. I truly feel many were led into a false conversion, although I cannot judge a persons heart, I can see the evidence or lack of evidence of salvation, and that is what worried me about this model of doing church, if you will.

 

[Revmitchell]

Effective pragmatism does not automatically mean God is in it.



"Heaven help us to know the difference between a crowd and a church." ~Dr. David Allen

 

[Steven2006]

Hi all,

Several years ago I was in a SBC church that almost completely surrendered it's whole ministry into the Saddleback theme by Rick Warren, from the parking lot to the pulpit.

Just curious, how does one change the parking lot to a Warren theme?

 

[Revmitchell]

Just curious, how does one change the parking lot to a Warren theme?

You use his picture as a means to mark which area you are parked in eg. "Rick 1A, Rick 2F, Warrren 3C etc. :laugh:

 

[Steven2006]

You use his picture as a means to mark which area you are parked in eg. "Rick 1A, Rick 2F, Warrren 3C etc. :laugh:

LOL, good one. But my question was a serious one, I thought maybe there really is a strategy with the parking lot.

 

[SolaSaint]

Yes there was a strategy in the parking lot, and this was a good portion of the changes we saw. We started having parking lot attendants help people park in certain areas, and gave them a warm welcome. What I didn't like was wearing bright colored vests and name tags. I really think name tags in church are weird. It tends to keep one form introducing themselves IMO.

 

[donnA]

what works in one church, what God gives success to, may not be His plan for another church. So churches see success in one church and seek the saem success using the same methods. Then is doesn't work like it did the first time. Because they didn't seek God's plan for then, they followed His plan for another ministry.

 

[SolaSaint]

DonnA,

I liked the way you said that.

 

[Johnv]

Is this Purpose Driven program still in full swing among baptist churches, or has it died out.

It's a misnomer to equate "Saddleback Church" with "Purpose Driven". That's only one facet of Saddleback, and does not define its ministry as a whole. As a church, it is fantastic, christ-centered, gospel-spreading, and believer-nurturing.

I really think name tags in church are weird. It tends to keep one form introducing themselves IMO.

We use name tags, and we're still a small church of about 150 people. IMO, it helps people get to know each other. The additional benefit is, when we are serving communion, we see the person's nametag, and say "Mike, this is the body and blood of....", which adds a more personal and intimate element.

 

[SolaSaint]

johnV,

It's good to hear that the PD model has worked at your church. Please bear with my statements above, I'm truly very critical of this system or model of doing church. The church I left went from a very traditional church that was growing, to a PD church growing even faster and unlike your church, the Christ centered part went away IMO. This hurt me and my family for we loved this church and the members there and we didn't like leaving, but it was the gospel or entertainment; we chose the gospel.

I'm sure there as many good stories like yours, as there are bad ones like mine.

 

[tinytim]

Yes there was a strategy in the parking lot, and this was a good portion of the changes we saw. We started having parking lot attendants help people park in certain areas, and gave them a warm welcome. What I didn't like was wearing bright colored vests and name tags. I really think name tags in church are weird. It tends to keep one form introducing themselves IMO.

Just wondering, besides the tags, (which I think would be wonderful in a big church)... surely nothing is wrong with attendants and a warm welcome.... is there?

 

[SolaSaint]

Tim,

Of course not, as my post said. Really the main objection I had was that the preaching and teaching was most always from Rick Warren and it wasn't the whole gospel, instead they just presented God as a lovey dovey big daddy in the sky, if you will, and sin and wrath and judgment were never mentioned. The sermon series, usually 4-6 Sundays was always about self improvement or what God can do for us. I could go on and on about all the good programs that were scratched in favor of the PD model, but I won't go into detail.

 

[thegospelgeek]

what works in one church, what God gives success to, may not be His plan for another church. So churches see success in one church and seek the saem success using the same methods. Then is doesn't work like it did the first time. Because they didn't seek God's plan for then, they followed His plan for another ministry.

That's exactly what Warren teaches in PDC, however most miss it and try to do what he did, not what he recommended them to do.

 

[Johnv]

It's good to hear that the PD model has worked at your church.

I don't think I ever said we used it at my church (although I have seen it effectively used at other churches). I only said that we use name tags.

The church I left went from a very traditional church that was growing, to a PD church growing even faster and unlike your church, the Christ centered part went away IMO.

I understand the concern, but I suspect the reason your church moved away from being Christ centered had nothing to do with whether it was adopting OD methods or not, but whether it was becoming more focused on Christ prior to adopting a PD model. If a church isn't Christ centered, no model, whether PD or otherwise, will solve the problem.