John MacArthur weighs in on the Manhatten Declaration and Catholicism

[JohnDeereFan]

Like the title says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WOv5EQlae0

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Amen. You will find some folks are not fans of Mac, but he stood correctly here.

 

[Gold Dragon]

While I disagree with MacArthur's view on whether Catholics and Orthodox can be saved, I do think that he presents a legitimate and rational argument of why he does not sign the Manhattan Declaration. I also agree with him that we should be telling those Catholics and Orthodox and Baptists I should add who think they are saved because of their denominational affiliation about real salvation and point them to the gospel.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

While I disagree with MacArthur's view on whether Catholics and Orthodox can be saved, I do think that he presents a legitimate and rational argument of why he does not sign the Manhattan Declaration. I also agree with him that we should be telling those Catholics and Orthodox and Baptists I should add who think they are saved because of their denominational affiliation about real salvation and point them to the gospel.

The point is the Gospel isn't it? And this declaration is not about the Gospel but social issues and moral issues. No Christian should stand united with those who pervert the Gospel. The Church's mission isn't social reform, but to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus.

 

[Johnv]

No Christian should stand united with those who pervert the Gospel.

It depends on what one is referring to. My church partners with other local churches and jewish synangogues to provide volunteers for a local foodbank, and the local chapter of Habitat for Humanity. I can't imagine why Christian would have an issue with this, but some, no doubt, do.

The Church's mission isn't social reform, but to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus.

Yet Jesus says "whatever you to do the least...". It's a misonomer to think that proclaiming the Gospel is limited to one's lips moving. Most often, it's more effectively done by having one's hands and feet moving. I'm of the opinion that a hungry man can't be spiritually fed until he is physicall fed first.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The Church's mission isn't social reform, but to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus.

hmmm, the Church is proclaiming the Gospel while doing what Christ desires and really commands His Church to do...

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:41-46)​

In XC
-

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Charity is not the Gospel. Nor is it a substitute for the Gospel.

The Gospel is the Gospel and it is to be preached and proclaimed.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Charity is not the Gospel. Nor is it a substitute for the Gospel.

The Gospel is the Gospel and it is to be preached and proclaimed.

Exactly. That is the answer to all who have replied to me.

 

[Johnv]

Charity is not the Gospel. Nor is it a substitute for the Gospel.

Never said it was. However, charity is a way to preach the Gospel. There's an implication in the NT that effective preaching the Gospel includes, among other things, charity.

The Gospel is the Gospel and it is to be preached and proclaimed.

If you don't think charity can be used to preach the Gospel, then you don't know what the Gospel is. The Good Samaritan did a better job preaching the Gospel than anyone who preceded him.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Never said it was. However, charity is a way to preach the Gospel. There's an implication in the NT that effective preaching the Gospel includes, among other things, charity.

If you don't think charity can be used to preach the Gospel, then you don't know what the Gospel is. The Good Samaritan did a better job preaching the Gospel than anyone who preceded him.

Your missing what we are teaching. Good works are done in adoration of the Gospel. We are saying the Gospel must be preached.

These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.
( James 2:18, 22; Psalms 116:12, 13; 1 John 2:3, 5; 2 Peter 1:5-11; Matthew 5:16; 1 Timothy 6:1; 1 Peter 2:15; Philippians 1:11; Ephesians 2:10; Romans 6:22 ) LBCF 16:2

 

[Johnv]

Your missing what we are teaching.

I thought the topic was about what the Bible teaches, and not what you are teaching. The bible makes it pretty clear that just moving lips is not preaching the Gospel. Using ones hands is not done out of adoration for the Gospel, it is a way to preach the Gospel. We are to be doers, not hearers only.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Never said it was. However, charity is a way to preach the Gospel. There's an implication in the NT that effective preaching the Gospel includes, among other things, charity.

No, charity is not a way to preach the Gospel. In the Bible, the Gospel is always preached, never hinted at by good works in the hopes that someone will guess that they're sinners who need to repent.

If you don't think charity can be used to preach the Gospel, then you don't know what the Gospel is.

I know what the Bible says the Gospel is.

The Good Samaritan did a better job preaching the Gospel than anyone who preceded him.

OK. Please explain where in the parable of the Good Samaritan we see anyone preaching the Gospel.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I thought the topic was about what the Bible teaches, and not what you are teaching. The bible makes it pretty clear that just moving lips is not preaching the Gospel. Using ones hands is not done out of adoration for the Gospel, it is a way to preach the Gospel. We are to be doers, not hearers only.

Why do you say you hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession and then when I quote it you disagree with it. Do you really hold this confession of faith as the profession of your own or no?

How has God ordained to save those who believe? By the good works of Christians or by the preaching of the Gospel?

 

[Johnv]

No, charity is not a way to preach the Gospel.

If that's what you believe, then your statement "I know what the Bible says the Gospel is" is obviously false.

How has God ordained to save those who believe? By the good works of Christians or by the preaching of the Gospel?

You're presuming incorrectly that the preaching of the Gospel cannot be done by a person's actions, but is done by words alone.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

If that's what you believe, then your statement "I know what the Bible says the Gospel is" is obviously false.

You're presuming incorrectly that the preaching of the Gospel cannot be done by a person's actions, but is done by words alone.

I ask you again, why do you profess that the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith is your profession of your faith, but teaching something contrary to it.

And I ask you again, how has, according to Scripture, God ordained to save those who believe?

 

[Johnv]

I ask you again, why do you profess that the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith is your profession of your faith, but teaching something contrary to it.

Where in the London Baptist Confession does it say that preaching the Gospel is limited to words only, or, for that matter, that hearing the Gospel is done through the ears only?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Where in the London Baptist Confession does it say that preaching the Gospel is limited to words only, or, for that matter, that hearing the Gospel is done through the ears only?

That was not my point. I already quoted you what your confession says about good works, and you denied it. Why?

I have asked you what the SCRIPTURE declares as God's ordained method for saving those who believe. Surely you know the Scriptures?

 

[matt wade]

If that's what you believe, then your statement "I know what the Bible says the Gospel is" is obviously false.

You're presuming incorrectly that the preaching of the Gospel cannot be done by a person's actions, but is done by words alone.

It's your statements that are false Johnv. Charity is not preaching the Gospel. Charity may be utilized as a method to get people's attention or obtain a captive audience, but preaching the Gospel is something different. Preaching the Gospel is telling someone the Good News.

A muslim can do charity and it does not preach the Gospel. The only way people can hear the Gospel is if we preach it to them, not try demonstrate the effects it had on our lives.

 

[Johnv]

That was not my point. I already quoted you what your confession says about good works, and you denied it. Why?

Like I said, you're presuming incorrectly that the preaching of the Gospel cannot be done by a person's actions, but is done by words alone.

I have asked you what the SCRIPTURE declares as God's ordained method for saving those who believe. Surely you know the Scriptures?

Those who believe are saved throught grace. That's not the topic. You're obviously incalable of staying on the topic. The topic is whether actions, and not words alone, are a way of preaching the Gospel. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing posted so far that remotely hints that the Gospel is preached through words alone.

It's your statements that are false Johnv. Charity is not preaching the Gospel.

I didn't say it was. I said charity can be used to preach the Gospel. And it frequently is.

Preaching the Gospel is telling someone the Good News.

I agree, but "telling" someone the Good News is not necessarily done by words alone. My wife is a teacher who can attest to the fact that teaching is typically done more with the hands than the mouth.

A muslim can do charity and it does not preach the Gospel.

Never said otherwise.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Like I said, you're presuming incorrectly that the preaching of the Gospel cannot be done by a person's actions, but is done by words alone.

Those who believe are saved throught grace. That's not the topic. You're obviously incalable of staying on the topic. The topic is whether actions, and not words alone, are a way of preaching the Gospel. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing posted so far that remotely hints that the Gospel is preached through words alone.

I didn't say it was. I said charity can be used to preach the Gospel. And it frequently is.

I agree, but "telling" someone the Good News is not necessarily done by words alone. My wife is a teacher who can attest to the fact that teaching is typically done more with the hands than the mouth.

Never said otherwise.

I am very much on topic. The Lord rebuke you for your unbiblical stance on His Gospel and His prescribed manner for preaching it.

My experience tells me that it is the false teachers and those running into error that move away from the words of God. Here is your professed confession:

1._____ The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )

And your teaching about preaching the Gospel by your deeds is contrary to the plain text of Scripture:

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Return to the Scripture friend.