A step in the wrong direction

[stilllearning]

Hi Peggy

You said.......

“No, we can't agree. Christ was not in the grave a literal 72 hours. By Jewish traditional Jewish observation, part of a day is considered a day. So he died on Friday (day 1), was in the grave on Saturday (day 2) and rose on Sunday (day 3).”

Well that may be “Jewish tradition”, but Jesus talked of His time in the grave, as a literal 3 days and 3 nights, just as Jonah was literally 3 days and 3 nights in the whale’s belly.

Matthew 12:40
“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
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You also said......

“I hope you don't disappoint the folks that go to your church by your non-observation of Easter.”

Thank you for your concern for my Church’s observation of Easter, but we celebrate Easter every Sunday(as we all should), and we also observe Easter Sunday.

But we totally ignore, all those man-made(RCC), observances, preceding Easter(as we all should).

 

[Trotter]

I guess you are "Still Learning", eh?

Nope. No learning going on there... everything is firmly set in concrete. That much has been proven time and again.

I have no use for the Catholic Church and its practices, but just because they happen to do something that is actually found in the bible does not mean I won't do it because of them. Our Lord's crucifixion is a somber time, but we can still rejoice in it as it was this very act that bought us salvation.

Peggy is correct about the Jewish observance of days. Last time I checked Jesus was Jewish and was speaking to other Jews when He said that He would be in the tomb for three days.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Hi Peggy

You said.......

Well that may be “Jewish tradition”, but Jesus talked of His time in the grave, as a literal 3 days and 3 nights, just as Jonah was literally 3 days and 3 nights in the whale’s belly.

Matthew 12:40
“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
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You also said......

Thank you for your concern for my Church’s observation of Easter, but we celebrate Easter every Sunday(as we all should), and we also observe Easter Sunday.

But we totally ignore, all those man-made(RCC), observances, preceding Easter(as we all should).

It is also quite possible that Jonah was not a literal 72 hours in the whale's belly. But whatever.

 

[Martin]

But this is a temptation, that must be resisted. By acknowledging these days, we send the message that “all churches are the same”, and that doctrine doesn’t really matter.

==I'm not sure how logical that is. We could use the same logic to support removing crosses from church buildings or refusing to meet at 11am on Sunday mornings. Simply because churches do some of the same things does not mean that doctrine is not important nor does it mean that lines of distinction between those churches have been erased. As Christians, we may differ on some points of doctrine but that does not mean we can't share many things in common. For example, I'm not going to stop celebrating Christmas or Easter just because the Methodists and Presbyterians celebrate those days. Stilllearning, your logic just does not hold water. You need to go back to the drawing board on this one.

Palm Sunday:
(Holy Week begins with the sixth Sunday in Lent.)

Maundy Thursday:
(The colors for Maundy Thursday are usually the colors of Lent, royal purple or red violet.)

Good Friday
(Some churches do observe communion on Good Friday. However, traditionally Eucharist is not served on Good Friday since it is a celebration of thanksgiving.)

Holy Saturday
(While Good Friday is a traditional day of fasting, some also fast on Saturday as the climax of the season of Lent.)
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These observances shouldn’t even be in our vocabulary, let alone on our Church calendar.

==Why not? You have not explained why those days are contrary to the Word of God.

The LORD has told us, to come out from among them, and be separate.

==That is misuse of the Scriptures. The Scriptures tell us to come out from among the world and the world's system. That text has nothing to do with the observance of certain days (holidays) by Christians and churches. The Biblical position on the celebration of days is explained by the Apostle Paul in Romans 14:5-12. Paul makes it clear that, "he who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God" (vs 6). The Apostle asks, "who are you to judge the servant of another?" (vs4). Some people regard "one day above another, another regards every day alike" (vs5). This is a matter of Christian freedom and you, in your op, are violating that freedom.

That churches, both orthodox and heretical, have similar practices does not mean that the differences, both meaningful and unimportant, have been erased. Nor does it equal an endorsement of another church's doctrine and practice. Stilllearning, your OP is unBiblical both in it's content and attitude. Legalism occurs when we allow human rules to take away Biblical freedoms.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Trotter

You said of me........

“Nope. No learning going on there... everything is firmly set in concrete. That much has been proven time and again.”

Thank you.
As you can tell, I am standing solidly on the Word of God.
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As for Mexdeaf

You said.........

“It is also quite possible that Jonah was not a literal 72 hours in the whale's belly. But whatever.”

Your “whatever” attitude about the Word of God, demonstrates where you are standing.

But this “whatever” idea, about the number of days, our Lord was in the grave is dangerous.
You need to remember, that your messing with the Gospel..........
1 Corinthians 15:3,4
V.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
V.4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Matthew 20:19
“And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.”

Matthew 27:63-64
V.63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
V.64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mark 9:31
“For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.”

Mark 10:34
“And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.”

Luke 9:21-22
V.21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded [them] to tell no man that thing;
V.22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luke 18:33
“And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.”

Luke 24:7
“Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”

John 2:19-21
V.19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
V.20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
V.21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

[Martin]

Well that may be “Jewish tradition”, but Jesus talked of His time in the grave, as a literal 3 days and 3 nights, just as Jonah was literally 3 days and 3 nights in the whale’s belly.

==Peggy is Biblically and historically correct. Jesus was a Jew, He taught and spoke to Jews, so He must be understood in that context. Failure to pay attention to that context will result in misunderstanding and error. That Jesus was crucified on Friday is clearly seen in the Gospels. Jesus had to buried and buried quickly because His execution occured on "preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath" (Mk 15:42). Since the Sabbath was/is on Saturday, His death occured on Friday. Jewish law required that He be buried before sundown on Friday since that is when the Sabbath began.

Therefore, Stilllearning, both history and Scripture argue that you can't understand the 3 days & 3 nights as a literal 72 hours. It must be understood in terms of the Jewish calendar. Keep in mind, none of his disciples had any problem with this. Why not? Because they were Jewish and understood how these things worked.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Martin

Read post #30

 

[Martin]

This “high Sabbath”, had to do with the Passover celebration, and this fell on a different day if the week, each year.
This year, the high Sabbath happened to fall on a Thursday, so Wednesday was also a preparation day.

==That is an interesting claim but it lacks any Biblical or historical evidence. To claim that the Sabbath day mentioned in John 19:31 was not on Saturday requires historical evidence that you have not provided. Yes, it was a special Sabbath because it fell during the Passover feast. However it was on a Saturday, the day after the "day of preparation" (Friday). To make any meaningful claim that it was not on a Saturday is going to require very clear historical evidence that you have simply not provided.

 

[Mexdeaf]

As for Mexdeaf

You said.........

Your “whatever” attitude about the Word of God, demonstrates where you are standing.

But this “whatever” idea, about the number of days, our Lord was in the grave is dangerous.

My "whatever" was addressed to your cavalier attitude towards the celebration of Easter. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to do so and nowhere in the Bible are we told NOT to do so. If you wish not to, that is your prerogative. Let me close with the words of the Apostle on the matter:

Romans 14:5,6

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello again Martin

Leviticus 23:5-8
V.5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD’S passover.
V.6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
V.7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
V.8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day [is] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].

Does the 14th of January always fall on the same day? (No.)
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You said......

“Yes, it was a special Sabbath because it fell during the Passover feast.”

No, this Sabbath was special because is was a “holy convocation”:

A Sabbath wouldn’t have been called a “high Sabbath”, for simply coming up, during the Passover week.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Hello again Martin

Leviticus 23:5-8
V.5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD’S passover.
V.6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
V.7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
V.8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day [is] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].

Does the 14th of January always fall on the same day? (No.)
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You said......


No, this Sabbath was special because is was a “holy convocation”:

A Sabbath wouldn’t have been called a “high Sabbath”, for simply coming up, during the Passover week.

You need to learn about the Jewish calendar (and Jewish history) if you want anyone to take you seriously. Jewish Calendar starts with the month Nisan, which does not correspond with our Gregorian calendar of January.

 

[stilllearning]

Mexdeaf,

I was using January 14th as an example of how the 14th day of the Jewish month, also never fell on the same day of the week.

 

[Trotter]

Thank you.
As you can tell, I am standing solidly on the Word of God.

Only if you are using it for a stepping stone.

You claim to be "learning" but are only interested in trying to vindicate your own legalism. You have proven this several times over here at the BB. This is just another example of this very thing.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Martin

I let this slide, when you first said it, but you seemed to have started something:
So I will go ahead and call you on it.

Actually there are two things I am calling you on:
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You said.........

“Stilllearning, your OP is unBiblical both in it's content and attitude.”

Do you know what “unBiblical” means?
So far, I have been the only one using Scripture to support my points.

And this makes me “unBiblical”?!?!
--------------------------------------------------
You also said.......

“Legalism occurs when we allow human rules to take away Biblical freedoms.”

Do you know what Legalism means?

One short definition I found........
“In Christian theology, is a sometimes-pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit.”

Legalism has nothing to do with the thread, but if pressed it is clear that your ideas are closer to Legalism than mine.

You are kind of over-emphasizing the importance of days in “Holy week”(where ever that came from), giving them more weight than they deserve.
Now usually folks who do this, pay less attention to the more important things in life, but I don’t even know you.

But you’re the one who hanged the Legalism tag on me, and now some people who can’t prove their point by Scripture, are resorting to name calling, and this is one of the names they are using.

It doesn’t really bother me, but I just thought that I should set the record straight.

 

[Martin]

Hello again Martin

Leviticus 23:5-8
V.5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD’S passover.
V.6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
V.7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
V.8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day [is] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].

Does the 14th of January always fall on the same day? (No.)

==Actually the "first month" for the Hebrew was Abid or Nisan which corresponds to our March/April. Secondly the verses you mention talk about Passover and not the Sabbath. Third, Passover occured on a Friday at least twice during the possible period of Jesus' death: AD 30 and AD 33. This corresponds to Nisan 14, 30 or 33 (I go with AD 30 as the most likely year). So, yet again, you have failed to prove that John 19:31 proves that the Sabbath was not on a Saturday. The historical and Biblical evidence leads us to believe it was a Saturday. That Jesus was executed on Friday (before Sunset) and rose early Sunday morning seems, historically and Biblically, beyond serious doubt.

No, this Sabbath was special because is was a “holy convocation”:A Sabbath wouldn’t have been called a “high Sabbath”, for simply coming up, during the Passover week.

==Proof?

 

[Martin]

Do you know what “unBiblical” means?
So far, I have been the only one using Scripture to support my points.
And this makes me “unBiblical”?!?!

==Apparently you are not reading my posts/replies. I based my statements on clear Scripture in post #44, #46, and #48 (my only posts in this thread to this point). Btw, it is very possible that one can quote Scripture and still be wrong and unBiblical. The Catholics and Mormons do it all the time. We have to understand Scripture the way it was meant to be understood. Trying to read our traditions or modern dating methods (etc) into the Scriptures can and does often lead to error. Our use of Scripture must be careful and deliberate. You have tried to make an assertion in this thread that does not fit the testimony of Scripture. That Jesus was crucified on Friday (the day of preparation) is clear in Scripture. However because you, or the person/s you sit under, misunderstand the Hebrew/Jewish understanding of days and nights you are misunderstanding what Jesus said in Matthew 12:40.

Therefore I stand by what I said.

Do you know what Legalism means?

==Yes.

One short definition I found........
“In Christian theology, is a sometimes-pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit.”
[/quote]

==Source?

You are kind of over-emphasizing the importance of days in “Holy week”(where ever that came from), giving them more weight than they deserve.

==No, I am simply putting these things in their Scriptural, and therefore historical, context. You are trying to move the days around (Sabbath, etc) to fit your misunderstanding of the Hebrew concept of days. I understand where you are coming from, and I admire your motives, but you are still wrong.

But you’re the one who hanged the Legalism tag on me, and now some people who can’t prove their point by Scripture, are resorting to name calling, and this is one of the names they are using.

==Your position on "days" in the OP is legalistic. That does not mean you are a legalist or that you teach a works based salvation (etc). It only means that, on that issue, I view your position as being a form of legalism. The same way on the issue of the day of Jesus' crucifixion. While I believe your position on that point is easily proven wrong by Scripture and history, that does not mean you are wrong on other issues.

I have proven my points with Scripture and history. While I don't claim to be an expert on ancient history or Jewish history, I know enough to be able to say that you are misunderstanding how Jesus and His listeners would have understood 3 days and 3 nights in that culture. During the incarnation, Jesus was a first century Jew and therefore He must be understood in that historical context. We can't take our understanding of days (etc) and read those things into the Scriptures. We have to understand these things the way they did if we are to correctly understand what they are saying.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Mexdeaf,

I was using January 14th as an example of how the 14th day of the Jewish month, also never fell on the same day of the week.

Thanks for that clarification. However you never responded to my post regarding Romans 4:5,6- that's Scripture. Wondering what your response is.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Mexdeaf

You are right, I did not respond to your reference of Romans 14:5,6(stating that each individual believer has a right to chose to regard some days as more important than others):

I did not respond, because I am very familiar with that passage and your interpretation of it was correct.
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Perhaps I did use too wide of a brush, when I said that I was the only one on this thread, that was using Scripture.

I apologize.

 

[Jerome]

In some Baptist chuches, the most holy days are Pastor's Anniversary, Rally Day, Friend Day, Mothers Day, Pack-a-Pew Day, etc

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

No one would argue that Jesus rose the third day, but I have a hard time with a Wednesday crucifixion fitting in to that unless He rose before sunset Saturday.

Wednesday afternoon - Thursday afternoon = Day 1
Thursday afternoon - Friday afternoon = Day 2
Friday afternoon - Saturday afternoon = Day 3

In order to rise on the third day it would have been Saturday afternoon. If that is the case, why do we worship on Sunday? Do we actually commemorate the discovery of His resurrection?