Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

[Winman]

Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 demonstrate the sinfulness of an infant as soon as they be born. They are born with a sin nature. The Bible indicates that they are born not into God's family but into the family of Satan. Thus Jesus could say to the Pharisees:
"You are of your father, the devil."
Every unsaved person is of their father, devil, and thus needs to be born into the family of God. They are born into the wrong family. Therefore there is the necessity of a new birth; a requirement to be born again.

Why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?
He needed to be born of a virgin so that he would be born without sin. For sin is passed down through the seed of a man. It is inherited. It is inherited through Adam. By Adam's sin death has passed upon all men, for all have sinned. We are all sinners because of Adam. We have inherited the sin nature of Adam. Jesus did not because he was born of a virgin. Thus he was sinless. He had no sin nature to combat.

I am not sure you are correct. Jesus did not say everybody was of the devil.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Are these people saved? Then why did Jesus say they were evil?

Jesus did say to those who rebelled and would not listen to him that they were children of the devil. But to those who did listen he said that God was their Father. Notice Jesus first says they are evil, and then says "your Father which is in heaven".

Not trying to be controversial, but these are the words of Jesus himself.

 

[DHK]

I am not sure you are correct. Jesus did not say everybody was of the devil.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Are these people saved? Then why did Jesus say they were evil?

Jesus did say to those who rebelled and would not listen to him that they were children of the devil. But to those who did listen he said that God was their Father. Notice Jesus first says they are evil, and then says "your Father which is in heaven".

Not trying to be controversial, but these are the words of Jesus himself.

This is the sermon on the mount. Read the context of this part of the passage. All throughout there is contrast. The broad way vs. the narrow way; the false prophet vs. the good, etc.
The people listening were not all saved; in fact very few were. They were a great crowd. And although Jesus was speaking to his disciples at first, he was fully aware of the great audience that he was also addressing.
An evil man (unsaved man) will also give good gifts to his children, such as many are doing right now at this season.
How much more will our heavenly Father do so to His own children (the saved), and those who are only rightly called children.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[percho]

You fail to differentiate between when the scriptures are speaking of the physical and spiritual. David was physically dead, he was spiritually alive.

Look what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

Matt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

When Jesus said this, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had been dead nearly two thousand years. And you can bet their physical bodies had long decayed away. But Jesus says they are living. He is speaking of the spiritual.

And if you bothered to read Luke 16, both Lazarus and the rich men were physically dead, but both could see, hear, speak, and other functions.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Before Christ's resurrection, all men went down into the earth, that is hell. But hell had two compartments, one for the spiritually dead, and another for the spiritually alive. Do you notice that this is where Abraham was?

One section was terrible and the rich man was tormented in flames. The other section was paradise. If you read in Rev 22, it says the tree of life is in paradise, and a river of pure water. Well, I believe this is what the rich man saw, and he asked if Lazarus would dip his finger in water and give him but a drop to drink.

You will also notice in the description of paradise in Rev. 22 that it sounds almost exactly like the garden of Eden described in Gen. 2.

What Jesus said concerning Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was relative to their resurrection read verse 31. Same is true for the rich man and Lazarus. The reason he is opening his eyes is because he is being resurrected. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his fathers house. Read verse 31. That's odd same verse number.

 

[Winman]

DHK

That was a pretty good answer. I am not trying to cause trouble with this type of question. When I read scripture, I tend to hang on to every word. When I saw Jesus say "ye being evil" and then "your Father", that sort of thing will stop me dead in my tracks.

When I was in my mid-30's I was in a grocery store. I felt a tap on my shoulder and turned around to see someone who looked familiar, but I couldn't remember when I had seen him before. He helped me and told me his name, it was my 10th grade science teacher. I told him I was amazed he remembered me and even my name after all these years with all the many hundreds of students he had taught. He said, "I always remember my favorite students". Now that was a shock to me, because I was always the one that would interupt a teacher and ask questions. "I was one of your favorite students? I used to torture you in class" I said. He said, "Yes, you did. But you made me a better teacher, because I knew everyday that you would be asking tough questions, I had to study myself. It didn't bother me, because I could see you were interested, you were trying to learn"

So, that is how I am. If I see something that puzzles me, I am going to ask. I am in no way trying to start controversy, and I never want to misrepresent the scriptures.

 

[Winman]

What Jesus said concerning Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was relative to their resurrection read verse 31. Same is true for the rich man and Lazarus. The reason he is opening his eyes is because he is being resurrected. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his fathers house. Read verse 31. That's odd same verse number.

Sorry, but in my opinion, you are way off. Before Jesus was resurrected, all those who were saved and died went down into paradise. This can be shown by the story of Samuel in 1 Samuel 28.

1 Sam 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

Samuel died and was buried. He is physically dead.

1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

King Saul sought for a woman with a familiar spirit that could speak to Samuel.

1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

As you see, the woman brought Samuel up out of the earth. Yes, he was physically dead, but he was spritually alive and able to hold a conversation with king Saul.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Election
A Glorious Truth for all Christians
​

Election is a topic that is (choose one):

1. Tiresome.
2. Unbiblical.
3. Difficult.
4. An in-house debate.
5. All of the above.
6. None of the above.

Maybe you chose more than one. My view on this has gone through several of these responses. Perhaps your's has too. Mostly the whole teaching - especially when framed as a debate against free-will - seemed to be a tiresome and fruitless agitation among otherwise rational and gentle Christians. A doctrinal minor that has been promoted to an irksome major among those who dearly love debates, who love generating more heat than light.

But then I noticed something - the Bible's testimony on election.

Far from being just a source of fruitless argument, this topic of God's sovereignty and our election, is something that Bible writers allude to often. Consider, for instance, 1 Thess. 1:4:

"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."

In Paul's very first epistle he puts election front and center. He did not believe - as many do today - that this topic should be an "in-house debate", or that it is for mature Christians only to look into, or - even less - that it is one of those "secret things" of Deut.29:29 that belong to God and not to us. A careful study of the Bible shows, rather, that it is one of those things (as Deut 29:29 goes on to speak of) that "belongs to us". Not an in-house debate at all, but the very foundation of our house! Do a study of this word (EKLEKTOS, "elect"; EKLOGE, "election"), especially in the Epistles, and see if what I say isn't true.

To know this, to be really sure of our own election - something the Bible commands for us, 2 Peter 1:10; 2 Cor.13:5 - marvellously strengthens our walk with God. When I finally realized - and truly, wholeheartedly embraced the wonderful truth of God's election of me personally it was a real spiritual shot in the arm - in the heart, rather. A cordial medicine. So far from being a badge of smugness and pride - as Calvinists are often mischaracterized as thinking of themselves, it is very humbling. It is also very assuring and a great foundation for lifelong victory in Christ - Peter's very point (read the rest of 1 Peter 1).

Christian, did you know that you are elect? If your faith is in Christ, if you are a new creature in him, it is because God chose it to be so. He chose you! There were no prerequisites to His choosing, no foreseen response on your part - all of those come out from, and after, election. You were not pre-qualified, pre-disposed, pre-anything - except predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, Rom. 8:29.

What a glorious truth! Knowing such a thing ought to humble us and make us thankful each and every day of our life!

Does this apply to the double minded man who should not expect anything from the Lord or the one who starts to plough and looks back or to the one like the dog who went back to his vomit or the sow to its wallowing in the muck?

 

[Marcia]

Sorry, but in my opinion, you are way off. Before Jesus was resurrected, all those who were saved and died went down into paradise. This can be shown by the story of Samuel in 1 Samuel 28.

1 Sam 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

Samuel died and was buried. He is physically dead.

1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

King Saul sought for a woman with a familiar spirit that could speak to Samuel.

1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

As you see, the woman brought Samuel up out of the earth. Yes, he was physically dead, but he was spritually alive and able to hold a conversation with king Saul.

I have to disagree. The woman did nothing - God brought Samuel to Saul to rebuke him. I do not think this woman/witch/medium has any such abilities. Not only that, but it was a common belief that the dead being brought back would come from the earth - this was a superstition/belief of the pagans then. Sometimes an expression was used about talking to a hole in the ground - they believed the dead were there. So using her words to support or validate a belief you think is biblical s not a good way to go, imo.

If you believe that at that time people actually did go underground after death, it might be good to use other scripture, but not this one.

 

[Marcia]

An infant is not spiritually dead (separated from God).

I know this has come up on the BB before and that you have this position. But it still shocks me that a Baptist would believe this. All are born separated from God - how can it be otherwise if we are born with a sin nature? The sin nature in and of itself means we are separated from God.

I know you think we have to sin to separate ourselves from God but this goes against the whole of scripture, including Gen. 3, the book of Romans, and other passages.

 

[Winman]

I have to disagree. The woman did nothing - God brought Samuel to Saul to rebuke him. I do not think this woman/witch/medium has any such abilities. Not only that, but it was a common belief that the dead being brought back would come from the earth - this was a superstition/belief of the pagans then. Sometimes an expression was used about talking to a hole in the ground - they believed the dead were there. So using her words to support or validate a belief you think is biblical s not a good way to go, imo.

If you believe that at that time people actually did go underground after death, it might be good to use other scripture, but not this one.

Why would I show other scriptures when you don't believe the ones I showed? Do you believe the word of God to be false? It says Samuel came up. Samuel himself asked why Saul had disquieted him to bring him up. If you don't believe this, you won't believe any other scriptures I present either.

 

[David Michael Harris]

I know this has come up on the BB before and that you have this position. But it still shocks me that a Baptist would believe this. All are born separated from God - how can it be otherwise if we are born with a sin nature? The sin nature in and of itself means we are separated from God.

I know you think we have to sin to separate ourselves from God but this goes against the whole of scripture, including Gen. 3, the book of Romans, and other passages.

I agree. It's God's grace that's important.

We cannot begin to imagine Gods holiness, and righteousness.

It really is potter and clay and mercy and pity.

We all need to repent and prostrate ourselves before God thats for sure.

 

[webdog]

Where in this passage does it say anything about a spiritually dead person?

It says except a man. Doesn.t say except a spiritually dead man.

Is an infant born of the flesh?

Why would it mean anything but? Does an alive person need to be born?

 

[webdog]

Psalm 51:5 and 58:3 demonstrate the sinfulness of an infant as soon as they be born. They are born with a sin nature. The Bible indicates that they are born not into God's family but into the family of Satan. Thus Jesus could say to the Pharisees:
"You are of your father, the devil."
Every unsaved person is of their father, devil, and thus needs to be born into the family of God. They are born into the wrong family. Therefore there is the necessity of a new birth; a requirement to be born again.

Why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin?
He needed to be born of a virgin so that he would be born without sin. For sin is passed down through the seed of a man. It is inherited. It is inherited through Adam. By Adam's sin death has passed upon all men, for all have sinned. We are all sinners because of Adam. We have inherited the sin nature of Adam. Jesus did not because he was born of a virgin. Thus he was sinless. He had no sin nature to combat.

Being born with a sin nature does not mean one is born a sinner. One is born with the nature to walk upright as well, and they cannot walk upon being born. Apples and oranges.

But to use these popular "proof texts"...one state we are sinners from conception, the other from birth. Which is it? Clearly one cannot base an entire doctrine on songs that are and were sung poetically. I gave 2 passages of Scripture stating we are dead in OUR trespasses and sins...and those passages are not poetic but theological in nature.

 

[Marcia]

Why would I show other scriptures when you don't believe the ones I showed? Do you believe the word of God to be false?

That's going pretty much over the top, Winman. I won't even dignify that question with a response.

It says Samuel came up. Samuel himself asked why Saul had disquieted him to bring him up. If you don't believe this, you won't believe any other scriptures I present either.

I didn't say Samuel did not appear. I said that the woman did not have the power to bring him up. Many agree with that. The Bible does not say Samuel came up from the ground; it says the woman said it.

Many people in the Bible lie; that does not mean God's word is false.

Of course this woman wanted credit for this and wanted to be thought of as doing her thing, especially for a king who had the power to have her killed.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Why would it mean anything but? Does an alive person need to be born?

Did you really just say that Maybe I missed the context.

 

[webdog]

I know this has come up on the BB before and that you have this position. But it still shocks me that a Baptist would believe this. All are born separated from God - how can it be otherwise if we are born with a sin nature? The sin nature in and of itself means we are separated from God.

I know you think we have to sin to separate ourselves from God but this goes against the whole of scripture, including Gen. 3, the book of Romans, and other passages.

On contrary, what is shocking is to hold to the position of Augustinian original sin and think God will save an infant some other way. That is even less "Baptist"
We are by nature enemies of God, hence the appointment of man ONCE to die, not both physically and spiritually (which is untrue if we are born / created spiritually dead...an oxymoron and an impossibility).

I find it odd that to hold to your view you must redefine very simple terms like "death" which is the ending of life, not the non existence of life. I have yet to have someone tell me at what point after conception did this individual have life that ended?

Also a murder is one who commits murder. A rapist is one who has raped. Like both, a sinner is one who sins...not one who is conceived.

 

[webdog]

Did you really just say that Maybe I missed the context.

I did, and you did

 

[Winman]

That's going pretty much over the top, Winman. I won't even dignify that question with a response.

I didn't say Samuel did not appear. I said that the woman did not have the power to bring him up. Many agree with that. The Bible does not say Samuel came up from the ground; it says the woman said it.

Many people in the Bible lie; that does not mean God's word is false.

Of course this woman wanted credit for this and wanted to be thought of as doing her thing, especially for a king who had the power to have her killed.

Saul believed this woman had the ability to bring Samuel up.

1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

The woman believed she had this ability.

1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

The woman said she saw gods come up (ascending) out of the earth (not heaven). When Saul asked her to describe who she saw, she described Samuel and Saul recognized the description she gave.

1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And Samuel himself said he had been brought up.

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

So, you see, it was not just the woman that said Samuel came up, Samuel himself said he came up. And notice that Samuel was upset at Saul for bringing him up. He did not come up willingly.

You say the woman did not have the ability to bring Samuel up? Then explain how he did come up.

 

[Marcia]

On contrary, what is shocking is to hold to the position of Augustinian original sin and think God will save an infant some other way. That is even less "Baptist"
We are by nature enemies of God, hence the appointment of man ONCE to die, not both physically and spiritually (which is untrue if we are born / created spiritually dead...an oxymoron and an impossibility).

I find it odd that to hold to your view you must redefine very simple terms like "death" which is the ending of life, not the non existence of life. I have yet to have someone tell me at what point after conception did this individual have life that ended?

Also a murder is one who commits murder. A rapist is one who has raped. Like both, a sinner is one who sins...not one who is conceived.

We sin because we are sinners; the sin nature, which I do not think you deny, is enough to cause great offense to a holy and righteous God.

My view is not an anomaly but is common among all Baptists (and most Christians) that I know. You and I think only one other person are the only ones on the BB that I can think of who have expressed the view that man is born not spiritually separated from God. Therefore, the onus is on you, Webdog, to show from scripture that we are not born spiritually separated from God, and that Romans 5 supports rather than goes against your view.

It is not good to solve a problem, such as where do babies go when they die, by trying to change a view about spiritual separation from God. Better to understand we are all born separated from God, as I believe the whole of Scripture attests to, and not totally understand how God saves babies or speculate on it.

 

[webdog]

We sin because we are sinners; the sin nature, which I do not think you deny, is enough to cause great offense to a holy and righteous God.

My view is not an anomaly but is common among all Baptists (and most Christians) that I know. You and I think only one other person are the only ones on the BB that I can think of who have expressed the view that man is born not spiritually separated from God. Therefore, the onus is on you, Webdog, to show from scripture that we are not born spiritually separated from God, and that Romans 5 supports rather than goes against your view.

It is not good to solve a problem, such as where do babies go when they die, by trying to change a view about spiritual separation from God. Better to understand we are all born separated from God, as I believe the whole of Scripture attests to, and not totally understand how God saves babies or speculate on it.

I believe Paul held the same view as I did (I provided the Scripture a couple pages back supporting my view)...and I would rather side on the Bible's side than Baptists. Most Baptists think alcohol is sinful as well, and like sin, they are wrong on that interpretation.

OK...if a fetus or baby is separated from God...how does the Bible say they need to be saved? What does dead mean? How can anything be created dead? A murder is not one who murders, but one who will murder? A rapist is not one who rapes, but one who is created to rape? The whole "we sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin" might sound theological and correct, but it lacks any kind of wisdom whatsoever.

 

[Winman]

Webdog, I want to make sure I am understanding you.

We are by nature enemies of God, hence the appointment of man ONCE to die, not both physically and spiritually (which is untrue if we are born / created spiritually dead...an oxymoron and an impossibility).

So, are you saying that if we are born spiritually dead, then we could not spiritually die?

If so, that actually makes a lot of sense. And like you, I have always believed you have to actually sin before you become a sinner. And to sin you must transgress a law. I don't know of any law that a baby breaks. And, I believe you have to know between right and wrong to be accountable.

Are we in agreement on this?