To be completely honest I have only spent a little time studying each and I would say more so on the Jehovah's witness side. I have family that are Jehovah's witness. As a believer I have had a heart for these two with the understanding that they are false teaching which do have some critical doctrine differences. Jehovah's witness do not hold the deity of Christ, dont really deem faith alone, and so forth and Mormons also have significant differences as well (In relation to the Baptist Faith). I always assumed that nobody could be truly saved through these false religions. I realize we arent ones to judge in that respect, but where do you think their Gospel's become insufficient to lead someone to Christ? In other words, what are the key essential pieces of the Gospel that must be understood in order to lead someone to Christ? You may want to include some beliefs on how and when the Spirit of God would and would not work, based on biblical understanding that God has revealed to us to be equiped to place our preaching in the path of grace.
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Mormon and Jehovah's witness
- Thread starter zrs6v4
- Start date
Can faith in a Jesus who is not the Jesus of the Bible save someone?
The Jesus of the Bible is God (not the first thing God created, not the brother of the devil, not "a" god, but GOD). Faith in any other is faith misplaced and will not save.
The Jesus of the Bible is God (not the first thing God created, not the brother of the devil, not "a" god, but GOD). Faith in any other is faith misplaced and will not save.
Im glad you said that and I would agree, so you are basically saying the proper saving knowledge is to know Jesus is Lord (God) and eternal, the Son of God, etc.. with of course the Gospel message? My question would be, what about the 7 year old who professes faith in the Gospel but does not know Jesus' deity and never heard of it? So basically the trinity is a necessity when preaching the Gospel?
this is really interesting to me thanks for the reply.
zrs6v4 said:
I'm skeptical of a seven year old's ability to respond to the Gospel but even so, there's a huge difference between not fully comprehending something, in the case of the seven year old, and comprehending it, but rejecting it, in the case of the Mormons and JWs.
One is "saved" because the Holy Spirit regenerates him. As Jesus said, the unbeliever can't even "see," comprehend spiritual things, the Kingdom of God. Anyone who worries about such things . . . it must be because "the Holy Spirit is testifying to his spirit." Does not the Holy Spirit finish what she starts?
The fact of the matter is that slinging Bible verses back and forth with a Jehovah's Witness to prove a doctrine, especially the trinity, is generally unproductive. He/she has been conditioned to accept only the Watchtower's interpretation of Scripture. From the Witness's view, you are not debating the meaning of the bible so much as the religious authority behind any given interpretation. Since he/she is conditioned to accept the Watchtower as God's "sole channel of communication" on earth, your ability to wield biblical Greek will likely count for nothing. The Witness will merely resort to the party line for any passage being discussed.
I have found that asking what a Witness what their take is on St. Thomas confession of 'my Lord and my God' would be. Haven't got much of an explanation.
I have found that asking what a Witness what their take is on St. Thomas confession of 'my Lord and my God' would be. Haven't got much of an explanation.
She?!? Did you mis-type or am I missing something?
That's good!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
That actually is the key difference. A seven year old nieither has rejected the truth. Both the JW and the Mormons are guilty of Anti-Christ (Greek Anothen) Another Christ. Christ exhorts Peter when he says "you are the Christ the Son of the Living God." Jesus said it was the spirit that informed him of this and upon this belief his church is built. So how can you participate in a Church that does not Hold Christ to be God? But a demi-god or supreme angel? It turns out you're talking about two different things.
I agree 100% with the fact that the through the Gospel the Holy Spirit regenerates people effectually unto salvation. I am also weirded out by the "She" part. So go a little further, I do agree with you, but why wouldnt the Holy Spirit work through the Simple Gospel message by other so called cults? I am not asking because I think He does, but I am interested in responses. I would say there is a lot to do with cults having false truth and the Spirit being absent from them as a body with false hope.
very good point. In regards to your previous post I found that the typical debate scene is very useless, but asking a lot of questions and expounding on their proof texts seems to be a big success for me. The "battle" approach in my opinion may not be the wisest.
I have also found that it is important to remember that when talking to Jehovah's Witnesses to deal with one theological topic at a time. If the Witness at your door is losing any ground in the conversation, I guarantee you there will be a subtle shift in the topic.
Happens every time.
Happens every time.
Marcia
Active Member
I have experienced this with JWs and with Mormons. So when they change the subject, I say, "Wait, we haven't finished discussing this yet."
I agree that asking questions is good. I usually pick one key point to focus on (like the deity of Christ for JWs and Who is God for the Mormons or salvation by grace alone) and try not to get off that one point.
Darron Steele
New Member
Here are some Christadelphian party lines on Jesus Christ:
http://www.christadelphia.org/belief.htm .
Jesus is a Man, not God!
We believe that the Bible is quite clear in its presentation that Christ is a man. The Son of God, but certainly not God Himself. The bulk of mainstream Christianity has staked its life on the assertion that Jesus is God. However, this is to be rejected for the following inescapable reasons, and many more:
God is one. There can only be one true God. It is undeniable that Jesus referred to himself and the Father as separate. To fly in the face of this the most fundamental of Biblical teachings, in any way, is to venture out onto very thin ice.
Mortality and immortality are mutually exclusive characteristics. God is immortal, and cannot die. Jesus died. If you alter this, all Scripture is inexorably weakened.
Jesus always very clearly pointed out his subservience to God; in power, teaching and life itself. To assert their equality is untenable.
Quoted from an official website:We believe that the Bible is quite clear in its presentation that Christ is a man. The Son of God, but certainly not God Himself. The bulk of mainstream Christianity has staked its life on the assertion that Jesus is God. However, this is to be rejected for the following inescapable reasons, and many more:
God is one. There can only be one true God. It is undeniable that Jesus referred to himself and the Father as separate. To fly in the face of this the most fundamental of Biblical teachings, in any way, is to venture out onto very thin ice.
Mortality and immortality are mutually exclusive characteristics. God is immortal, and cannot die. Jesus died. If you alter this, all Scripture is inexorably weakened.
Jesus always very clearly pointed out his subservience to God; in power, teaching and life itself. To assert their equality is untenable.
http://www.christadelphia.org/belief.htm .
You believe this? I would kindly and without a doubt disagree with this in the highest degree : ) .
As you know we (mainstream Christians) Believe that Scripture is clear that God is One. We also believe God the Father is not God the Son, but are in fact separate persons as is the Spirit. The Key is One in Essence, while 3 in person. This is indescribable and seems to be a contradiction but isnt, and is drawn from Scripture. Nobody can really wrap there mind around this truth nor can we understand how God can be having all different emotions at the different times, deal with trillions of situations at the same time, or sovereignly control everything. I sometimes wonder if the reason other beliefs are drawn, because it logically seems like a fallacy because we try to understand God as we see things in ourselves. We can only be one and one person, we can only worship 1 thing at a time, and so forth. It is also interesting that Christ has such great power and authority, blasphemed because He made Himself equal with God, receives worship as Lord and King with great infinite power, He is eternal, and created all that is, and was the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, that is God with us.
Tell me a little about who Christ actually is besides a man who happened to live perfectly? I find it hard not only Scripturally, but in the big scope of His Kingdom, to praise Him in any other way than the Alpha and the Omega, Almighty God.
I read your statement on the person of Christ-
"Doctrinally, the Christadelphians are unique in Christendom in our understanding of the nature of Christ, and the way in which we are redeemed by his death. We reject as unbiblical the idea that Christ could die as a replacement sacrifice for us, thus covering all our sins forever with that one act. Certainly it is through his sacrifice that we may be forgiven, but only if we walk the path of self-denial that he marked out for us."
Why do you hold that Christs payment was insufficient?
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Darron Steele
New Member
Zrs6v4: chill out, and read carefully.
I quoted an official website of the Christadelphians. If we want to see what Christadelphian teaching is, that seemed like the best source.
I did not say it was
a) my "statement" or
b) anything I believed or
c) anything I would not disagree with.
From where I read, Scripture is very clear on the truth that Lord Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and the great I AM in flesh.
I never imagined that just quoting an official Christadelphian website would get me suspected by even one person of being Christadelphian! You need to read carefully and with your imagination in `idle.'
I quoted an official website of the Christadelphians. If we want to see what Christadelphian teaching is, that seemed like the best source.
I did not say it was
a) my "statement" or
b) anything I believed or
c) anything I would not disagree with.
From where I read, Scripture is very clear on the truth that Lord Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and the great I AM in flesh.
I never imagined that just quoting an official Christadelphian website would get me suspected by even one person of being Christadelphian! You need to read carefully and with your imagination in `idle.'
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I wasn't "hot" like it may appear at times through forums
I was just stating my view as you seemed to come across as if you held this view. We're goodDarron Steele
New Member
Wow -- quoting a source for information makes someone appear to be agreeing with it?I wasn't "hot" like it may appear at times through forums
That is not the case where I come from.
I appreciate the "We're good" but you need to be more careful.
There are probably few of us who haven’t been visited at least once by Mormon missionaries. At some point these young men will ask me to accept a copy of the Book of Mormon, read it, and pray about it, asking the Lord to "send the Holy Ghost to witness that it is true." Then, they’ll "testify" to me that they know the Book of Mormon is factual, that it’s God’s inspired word, and that it contains the "fullness of the everlasting gospel."
They always assure me that if I read their text with a prayerful spirit, I will receive the testimony of the Holy Ghost. That testimony supposedly will convine me beyond doubt that the Book of Mormon is exactly what they say it is.
The missionaries want me to have a feeling about the Book of Mormon after reading it. They describe it as a warm, fuzzy feeling—after reading and praying about it. This feeling is the proof that the Book of Mormon is inspired Scripture. From there they conclude everything else about their religion should be considered truth.
I try to explain to them that feelings are sometimes misguided and ask them why they feel the text is inspired. The answer is always 'because Joseph Smith said it was and the Book of Morman itself says that Joseph Smith is a prophet'. After that is said, it is not difficult to point out the failed prophesies of Joseph Smith that are found in 'Doctrines and Covenants'. One that says there are people on the moon that dress a lot like Quakers and another the lost civilization living in Antarctica that has their own scriptures. I point out that If there were even one false prophecy it means Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
In my area, there are quite a few Morman churches and an abundance of Morman missionaries. They have a 'seminary' where the youngsters are trained. I've found that none of them have any background in Church history and when confronted with the fact that none of the peculiar LDS doctrines are found in the early Church. When asked why if LDS is a restoration of the true Church these doctrines are not found in any of the writings of the ECF's there are just blank stares.
They always assure me that if I read their text with a prayerful spirit, I will receive the testimony of the Holy Ghost. That testimony supposedly will convine me beyond doubt that the Book of Mormon is exactly what they say it is.
The missionaries want me to have a feeling about the Book of Mormon after reading it. They describe it as a warm, fuzzy feeling—after reading and praying about it. This feeling is the proof that the Book of Mormon is inspired Scripture. From there they conclude everything else about their religion should be considered truth.
I try to explain to them that feelings are sometimes misguided and ask them why they feel the text is inspired. The answer is always 'because Joseph Smith said it was and the Book of Morman itself says that Joseph Smith is a prophet'. After that is said, it is not difficult to point out the failed prophesies of Joseph Smith that are found in 'Doctrines and Covenants'. One that says there are people on the moon that dress a lot like Quakers and another the lost civilization living in Antarctica that has their own scriptures. I point out that If there were even one false prophecy it means Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
In my area, there are quite a few Morman churches and an abundance of Morman missionaries. They have a 'seminary' where the youngsters are trained. I've found that none of them have any background in Church history and when confronted with the fact that none of the peculiar LDS doctrines are found in the early Church. When asked why if LDS is a restoration of the true Church these doctrines are not found in any of the writings of the ECF's there are just blank stares.
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