Mormon and Jehovah's witness

[zrs6v4]

Wow -- quoting a source for information makes someone appear to be agreeing with it?

That is not the case where I come from.

I appreciate the "We're good" but you need to be more careful.

fair enough, that is the downfall of forums or anything not in person I guess, it is easy to put your own assumption on words and misunderstand things.. I have also found we intend to be less sensitive and unecessarily bold, hah. Anyway Im sorry if I offended you in any way..

 

[zrs6v4]

There are probably few of us who haven’t been visited at least once by Mormon missionaries. At some point these young men will ask me to accept a copy of the Book of Mormon, read it, and pray about it, asking the Lord to "send the Holy Ghost to witness that it is true." Then, they’ll "testify" to me that they know the Book of Mormon is factual, that it’s God’s inspired word, and that it contains the "fullness of the everlasting gospel."

They always assure me that if I read their text with a prayerful spirit, I will receive the testimony of the Holy Ghost. That testimony supposedly will convine me beyond doubt that the Book of Mormon is exactly what they say it is.

The missionaries want me to have a feeling about the Book of Mormon after reading it. They describe it as a warm, fuzzy feeling—after reading and praying about it. This feeling is the proof that the Book of Mormon is inspired Scripture. From there they conclude everything else about their religion should be considered truth.

I try to explain to them that feelings are sometimes misguided and ask them why they feel the text is inspired. The answer is always 'because Joseph Smith said it was and the Book of Morman itself says that Joseph Smith is a prophet'. After that is said, it is not difficult to point out the failed prophesies of Joseph Smith that are found in 'Doctrines and Covenants'. One that says there are people on the moon that dress a lot like Quakers and another the lost civilization living in Antarctica that has their own scriptures. I point out that If there were even one false prophecy it means Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

In my area, there are quite a few Morman churches and an abundance of Morman missionaries. They have a 'seminary' where the youngsters are trained. I've found that none of them have any background in Church history and when confronted with the fact that none of the peculiar LDS doctrines are found in the early Church. When asked why if LDS is a restoration of the true Church these doctrines are not found in any of the writings of the ECF's there are just blank stares.

Very interesting, I think this is where it is helpful to be educated on Joseph Smiths failings as a so called "prophet" and other faults in the church. I actually had an opportunity early this year to sit down and discuss a few large topics including salvation to two of the missionaries. We spent about 3 visits at my place for about 2 hours each. It was very interesting and I felt sorry for one of the guys who, as you said, knew for certain that the book was true. He ended up after our discussion being not fully certain anymore which is good, as long as the true hope is planted. I still think about them quite a bit, but I think to really be of a good help it is vital to understand the essentials that you may reject their false teaching.

Every once in awhile I get on their website and ask questions about the gospel and salvation and wait for opportunities to show them what the true gospel and freedom in Christ are. The truth is that they really cant have assurance of salvation. Another interesting fact is that from what I understand they believe that their church is the true church. While they say this, they are really passive of other religions it seems, saying everyone has some light of truth.

 

[billwald]

>I am also weirded out by the "She" part.

My reading of Proverbs and other passages lead me to believe that the Holy Spirit is the fem aspect of God. It is also Jewish interpretation of their scriptures - which Christianity hi-jacked. We should be pleased that the male voice holds the majority of the quorum in the Trinity. I also like to pull chains from a distance.


> So go a little further, I do agree with you, but why wouldnt the Holy Spirit work through the Simple Gospel message by other so called cults?

I think this is the case. We are only required to believe what we can understand. If Mormons can't understand some Christian dogma but love God and work at being good neighbors will God not credit them with believing the parts of the Bible as they understand them?

God can regenerate any person "in" Christ Jesus that he chooses. Who am I to tell God that he cannot regenerate a Jew or a Mormon? At the same time, I am convinced that Mormon leaders are evil and don't love God or Neighbor. Also some "Christian" leaders seem to be evil. We can only judge by their works, not their statements.

 

[lori4dogs]

zrs6v4
You are right, they are quite passive when it comes to other religions. They have a 'we don't bash your church, why bash ours' philosophy. For them, one of the marks of being the 'True Church' is being persecuted. They will point out that from the time of Joseph Smithto the present they are a persecuted people.

In my area, there seems to be some syncretism as there are Mormans open to tolerance of members involved in New Age ideas. Much different than the JW's.

No Christian disputes the absolute necessity of knowing the nature of God (as we have discussed on the BB this is limited to the extent our reason, aided by grace, that we understand this mystery). Christian denominations have been united in a constant belief in the supreme God as almighty, eternal, and unchanging. Mormons do not as their self-described "prophets" who receive "direct revelation" from the gods. These revelations are sometimes a flip-flop of other prophets revelations.

 

[lori4dogs]

Except for some temporary detours (Orson Pratt said the Holy Ghost was a spiritual fluid that filled the universe; Brigham Young taught that Adam is the god of this world), the Mormon church has constantly taught that God the Father is a perfected man with a physical body and parts. Rightous Mormon men progress, as did the Father, and eventually become gods themselves. In fact, I believe the fifth president, Lorenzo Snow, summed up the Mormon teaching thus: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." Snow frequently claimed this summary of the Mormon doctrine on God and man was revealed to him by inspiration.

There was quite a bit of coverage of this in either 'The god-makers I' or 'The god-makers II'. These videos created quite a stir in the Morman community in my area. There were several symposiums that I wasn't able to attend that were to address the issues brought up in the video.

 

[Havensdad]

>I am also weirded out by the "She" part.

My reading of Proverbs and other passages lead me to believe that the Holy Spirit is the fem aspect of God. It is also Jewish interpretation of their scriptures - which Christianity hi-jacked. We should be pleased that the male voice holds the majority of the quorum in the Trinity. I also like to pull chains from a distance.

Bro,

That sounds wonderfully politically correct: however, it is simply not true. The Holy Spirit is never referred to as a "She", but always as a "he."

Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to...

Please show me one instance where the Holy Spirit is referred to in the feminine.

Thanks.

 

[lori4dogs]

I heard this debated before. And I'm NOT saying I support this, but I'm thinking the argument he may be referring to is one that seems to support the feminine gender of the Holy Spirit, is an association with "the spirit of wisdom" (Exodus 28:3 and Ephesians 1:17). In both the Old and New Testaments, Wisdom is referred to in feminine gender??

 

[zrs6v4]

Yea, no go on the she part of the Holy Spirit. I have thought a little and there is no reason why a Mormon or anyone couldn't be regenerate of course. Now this is a rare thing for a Mormon or a JW (or anyone I guess, hah) to be born of the Spirit. Now I think it is clear that if a Mormon or a JW or a Jew were to be born again, then they will be led to truth and not teach heresy in later years.

Now my question was mainly directed toward can they be regenerated through a Mormon conference/sermon or whatever there called? Another way to put it would be, could a person who is blind be born again through the basic Gospel preached by an unborn person?

I think it has been covered pretty well that the Spirit works through the living and abiding Word, and I really dont think a blind person can lead a blind person. So it seems that God, not that He couldnt, chooses to save people through saved people. Now this isnt to say that a Mormon doesnt go home and read the Scipture and the Holy Spirit shines light on truth in that fashion. I think this gets a little deeper.

 

[Havensdad]

I heard this debated before. And I'm NOT saying I support this, but I'm thinking the argument he may be referring to is one that seems to support the feminine gender of the Holy Spirit, is an association with "the spirit of wisdom" (Exodus 28:3 and Ephesians 1:17). In both the Old and New Testaments, Wisdom is referred to in feminine gender??

The Holy Spirit in the NT is referred to as "He." the "spirit of Wisdom" is referred to as "she." Conclusion? Not the same thing.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

There are probably few of us who haven’t been visited at least once by Mormon missionaries. At some point these young men will ask me to accept a copy of the Book of Mormon, read it, and pray about it, asking the Lord to "send the Holy Ghost to witness that it is true." Then, they’ll "testify" to me that they know the Book of Mormon is factual, that it’s God’s inspired word, and that it contains the "fullness of the everlasting gospel."

Lori, are you familiar with this website:

http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2004/08/anti-mormon-plea-please-dont-pray.html

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Also, I have found that the best way to de-rail Witnesses and Morman's pre-packaged presentations is to tell them my testimony and of the life changing transformation that takes place for someone who comes to know Jesus as Savior and chooses to follow Him as their Lord.

What's the difference between that and the subjective and esoteric "burning in the bosom" or "my testimony tells me it's true" of the "Mormons"?

Whatever happened to just presenting the Gospel to them?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Except for some temporary detours (Orson Pratt said the Holy Ghost was a spiritual fluid that filled the universe; Brigham Young taught that Adam is the god of this world), the Mormon church has constantly taught that God the Father is a perfected man with a physical body and parts. Rightous Mormon men progress, as did the Father, and eventually become gods themselves. In fact, I believe the fifth president, Lorenzo Snow, summed up the Mormon teaching thus: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." Snow frequently claimed this summary of the Mormon doctrine on God and man was revealed to him by inspiration.

You know, if you're going to copy and paste someone else's work, you really should give them credit for it.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No Christian disputes the absolute necessity of knowing the nature of God (as we have discussed on the BB this is limited to the extent our reason, aided by grace, that we understand this mystery). Christian denominations have been united in a constant belief in the supreme God as almighty, eternal, and unchanging. Mormons do not as their self-described "prophets" who receive "direct revelation" from the gods. These revelations are sometimes a flip-flop of other prophets revelations.

Lori, you know, if you're going to copy and paste somebody else's work, you really should give them credit for it.

 

[zrs6v4]

What's the difference between that and the subjective and esoteric "burning in the bosom" or "my testimony tells me it's true" of the "Mormons"?

Whatever happened to just presenting the Gospel to them?

The idea is that a true transformation by the work of the Spirit is a way to preach the Gospel. If I tell them how I grew up in church and how God through the Gospel called me and changed my heart to Himself it shows them a hint of how the Spirit really works rather than a feeling in the stomache region. I think Lori's statement is right on.

It is similar to how Paul does it throughout Scripture. He said (paraphrased) that he was a Jew, circumsized on the 8th day, kept the Law, but that was meaningless.... then... The Gospel. I believe the Spirit gives us ways to glorify God by praising Him for His work while preaching and this is used to call attention to the hearers.

 

[Marcia]

Wow -- quoting a source for information makes someone appear to be agreeing with it?

That is not the case where I come from.

I appreciate the "We're good" but you need to be more careful.

I could tell you were just giving info. It might have been more clear if you had put the quote in quote box, however.

 

[zrs6v4]

I could tell you were just giving info. It might have been more clear if you had put the quote in quote box, however.

Yea it was my fault I just was reading the thread on this forum in regards to the trinity, and confused him for one of the guys of the faith he quoted posting on the forums.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The idea is that a true transformation by the work of the Spirit is a way to preach the Gospel. If I tell them how I grew up in church and how God through the Gospel called me and changed my heart to Himself it shows them a hint of how the Spirit really works rather than a feeling in the stomache region.

So what makes your subjective experience better than their subjective experience?

I've got to be honest with you, if I were an unsaved person, that wouldn't mean anything to me.

The problem with telling an unsaved person how God "changed your heart", is that that doesn't tell them why they should want to have their heart changed or what they need it changed from.

That's why we share the Gospel with them. When you share the Gospel with them, God uses the law to convict them and soften their heart. It explains to them that they don't need God to change their heart, but that they need to be born again. Once they understand their depravity and their status as an enemy of God and the wrath they're going to face on Judgement Day, then you present the Grace portion of the Gospel to them and explain the goodness of God to them and how they can not merely have their heart changed, but be forgiven, reconciled to God and made a child of His.

 

[Marcia]

>I am also weirded out by the "She" part.

My reading of Proverbs and other passages lead me to believe that the Holy Spirit is the fem aspect of God. It is also Jewish interpretation of their scriptures - which Christianity hi-jacked. We should be pleased that the male voice holds the majority of the quorum in the Trinity. I also like to pull chains from a distance.

Are you talking about Sophia, the wisdom of God? First Cor. tells us that Jesus is the wisdom of God. Sophia is a metaphor, not the HS.

Or maybe you are talking about the Kabbalah, which is not biblical Judaism. In Kabbalah, the Shekinah is a feminine counterpart to God.

There is no biblical basis for the Holy Spirit being feminine. If you have some, please post it.

We are only required to believe what we can understand. If Mormons can't understand some Christian dogma but love God and work at being good neighbors will God not credit them with believing the parts of the Bible as they understand them?

The Mormons have the wrong God. Do you know that they believe in many gods? There is the God of this world, and the gods of other worlds. They also teach that God was once a man, and that good Mormon men will be gods of their own world. Their Jesus is likewise not the Biblical Jesus, but a spirit child of God and his wife in heaven, and we are all such spirit children.

God can regenerate any person "in" Christ Jesus that he chooses. Who am I to tell God that he cannot regenerate a Jew or a Mormon?

God does not contradict his own word and teaching, that is why we know that one cannot be saved through a false Jesus. If a Mormon or Jew is saved, it is through faith in the real Jesus.

At the same time, I am convinced that Mormon leaders are evil and don't love God or Neighbor. Also some "Christian" leaders seem to be evil. We can only judge by their works, not their statements.

We judge by God's word.

 

[Marcia]

Yea, no go on the she part of the Holy Spirit. I have thought a little and there is no reason why a Mormon or anyone couldn't be regenerate of course. Now this is a rare thing for a Mormon or a JW (or anyone I guess, hah) to be born of the Spirit. Now I think it is clear that if a Mormon or a JW or a Jew were to be born again, then they will be led to truth and not teach heresy in later years.
.

People are not saved through faith in a false god or Jesus, which is what the Mormons and JWs have.

Now my question was mainly directed toward can they be regenerated through a Mormon conference/sermon or whatever there called? Another way to put it would be, could a person who is blind be born again through the basic Gospel preached by an unborn person?

But the Mormons are not giving the gospel. You do know that they teach Jesus saves us "after all we can do." Iow, works are part of salvation. They also have the wrong Jesus, who is a spirit child of God and his wife.

 

[zrs6v4]

So what makes your subjective experience better than their subjective experience?

mine was real

I've got to be honest with you, if I were an unsaved person, that wouldn't mean anything to me.

neither would the Gospel without the Spirit. Im not saying a testimony of feelings but the Gospel in my testimony.

The problem with telling an unsaved person how God "changed your heart", is that that doesn't tell them why they should want to have their heart changed or what they need it changed from.

I would disagree, indirect Gospel messages are still hearing the Gospel.

That's why we share the Gospel with them. When you share the Gospel with them, God uses the law to convict them and soften their heart. It explains to them that they don't need God to change their heart, but that they need to be born again. Once they understand their depravity and their status as an enemy of God and the wrath they're going to face on Judgement Day, then you present the Grace portion of the Gospel to them and explain the goodness of God to them and how they can not merely have their heart changed, but be forgiven, reconciled to God and made a child of His.

Yes I agree all of that and I know you assumed Jesus into the picture, but I would also show how His work was so vital and how by that grace we are free.