Mormon and Jehovah's witness

[lori4dogs]

'Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965'

Boy, that is some decline!

Yep, and we only have five priests serving in a parish of 30,000 souls. Lay ministry has o 'stepped up to the plate'. Our parish is very evangelistic and it shows in the tremendous growth. As I said, the proof is in the pews!

 

[lori4dogs]

You know, with all this talk of the supposed 'decline of Catholicsim'. I don't hear much talk of growth in churches like the United Church of Canada, the Methodist Church, The Anglican Church of Canada, the Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Church of America, the LCMS, the ELCA, the American Baptist Church, etc.

The RCC is up 20 million in the U.S. alone. What are the stats on these churches?

 

[annsni]

'Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965'

Boy, that is some decline!

Yep, and we only have five priests serving in a parish of 30,000 souls. Lay ministry has o 'stepped up to the plate'. Our parish is very evangelistic and it shows in the tremendous growth. As I said, the proof is in the pews

You do know the joke about how the Catholic grows it's church, don't you? By having more babies.

 

[lori4dogs]

The SBC is has declined by 40,000 members, The American Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, ELCA, LCMS, Reformed Church in America are all declining. FAST!

But the RCC which is up by 20 million members in the U.S. alone is in decline.

Gimme a break!

 

[lori4dogs]

You do know the joke about how the Catholic grows it's church, don't you? By having more babies.

The presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katherine Jefforts-Schori, explained that much of the decline in the Episcopal Church is 'due to the fact that Episcopalians tend to be better educated and have less babies.'

 

[annsni]

The presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katherine Jefforts-Schori, explained that much of the decline in the Episcopal Church is 'due to the fact that Episcopalians tend to be better educated and have less babies.'

Well, apparently having a woman bishop presiding over the church shows that it's not exactly a Biblical model, don't you think?

 

[lori4dogs]

In an except from the a New York Times interview, the presiding Heretic said: 'The Presiding Bishop was asked how many Episcopalians there are in the U.S. "About 2.2 million," Schiori responded. "It used to be larger percentagewise, but Episcopalians tend to be better-educated and tend to reproduce at lower rates than some other denominations. Roman Catholics and Mormons both have theological reasons for producing lots of children."

Two years ago in her 'Easter' message, she said that because of Americans desire for hamburgers which necessitated the need to raise so many cows which was causing tremendous methane 'emissions' and was destroying the planet. That was the message. Didn't something else happen kinda important on Easter? I wondered too, if we kill less cows isn't that going to mean more methane?? LOL

We are discussing the heresies of the J.W.'s and Mormons on this thread. Those false teachings are pretty clearly spelled out in their literature. Then we have someone masquerading as a Christian leader who denies that Jesus is the only way to salvation, denies 'physical resurrection, is an admitted universalist and I wonder where the real threat to orthodox Christianity is coming from.

 

[lori4dogs]

Well, apparently having a woman bishop presiding over the church shows that it's not exactly a Biblical model, don't you think?

You are absolutely right.

 

[DHK]

'Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965'

Boy, that is some decline!

Yep, and we only have five priests serving in a parish of 30,000 souls. Lay ministry has o 'stepped up to the plate'. Our parish is very evangelistic and it shows in the tremendous growth. As I said, the proof is in the pews!

And what was the population of America in 1965, and what is it now?

 

[annsni]

And what was the population of America in 1965, and what is it now?

Good question. I guess a better view would be the percentage of the population of the earth being Roman Catholic.

 

[DHK]

'Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965'

Boy, that is some decline!

Let's take the statement in the context that it was written in. Then you can see the meaning of the author.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

• Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
• Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.
• Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?
Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.
Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway.
Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

 

[lori4dogs]

The statistics among protestants is much more telling.

Steep decline in membership, embracing same-sex marriages, promoting abortion, denying Christ divinity, denying the resurrection, denying the virgin birth, promoting universalism, referring to the Atonement as 'divine child abuse', and the lists goes on and on.

You want to talk about decline and heretical teachings. Take a good look at protestantism in America.

 

[annsni]

The statistics among protestants is much more telling.

Steep decline in membership, embracing same-sex marriages, promoting abortion, denying Christ divinity, denying the resurrection, denying the virgin birth, promoting universalism, referring to the Atonement as 'divine child abuse', and the lists goes on and on.

You want to talk about decline and heretical teachings. Take a good look at protestantism in America.

That's why we're not protestant. We're independent Baptist. We're growing. We're even planting a new church! :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

Well, the Catholic Church of Visalia, CA is certainly not 'dwindling'. Check out our website. http://www.tccov.org/ There is standing room only at 15 weekend masses. Over 30,000 registered members. Check out the photos of the masses, see any empty pews?

Far be it from me to claim that every RC church on the planet is empty!

I have no doubt at all that some are doing very well!

(Especially if a lot of immigration is going on from a nearby catholic country )

In my own area Andy Stanley has a Southern Baptist set of churches meeting multiple times on a Sunday and broadcasting out to sattelite services all over the area (some use hollographic display ). 30,000 is a drop in that bucket as it turns out.

But one-off stories is not my point when it comes to areas like Canada and Europe where nation-wide decline is devastating all Christian churches.

As far as removing ex-members. Most churches are pretty bad about deleting people from their roles. I'm still listed as a member of an SBC in Riverside, CA. despite my informing them that I'm now Catholic.

Imagine if they had recorded "every birth as Baptist" and then refused to update their books. You need to get to "that level" of innaccuracy to approach the model being used in the Catholic system.

However the attendance issue is not proving the Catholic church to be doctrinally false or doctrinally correct. It is a side issue -- except to the extent that we note which churches embrace evolutionism and which ones reject it.

Because as Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, Meyers (et al) have pointed out - evolutionism killed their Christian faith.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[lori4dogs]

'But one-off stories is not my point when it comes to areas like Canada and Europe where nation-wide decline is devastating all Christian churches.'

Very true:
We live in an increasingly secular society where Christianity is becoming a tough sell.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a 9 minute example of someone who differs with me on the subject of "are Catholics Christians" -- John MacArthur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpWDUt89t2g&feature=related

While I agree with him that many of the problems he identifies are serious - I cannot agree that Catholics "by definition" are not Christian. Rather I would argue that on an individual basis - person by person, there are those who are saved in the Catholic Church and there are others who are not.

We would see the same thing in all denonimation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[lori4dogs]

Here is a 9 minute example of someone who differs with me on the subject of "are Catholics Christians" -- John MacArthur.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpWDUt89t2g&feature=related

While I agree with him that many of the problems he identifies are serious - I cannot agree that Catholics "by definition" are not Christian. Rather I would argue that on an individual basis - person by person, there are those who are saved in the Catholic Church and there are others who are not.

We would see the same thing in all denonimation.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks for sharing that. He makes the usual dribble about saint worship, inventing purgatory for the purpose of making money (not to mention he says 'it is a second chance to get into heaven) re-sacrificing Christ at every mass, etc.

I'm glad you don't agree with his 'by definition, Catholics aren't Christians' and that salvation is on an individual basis, person by person. I completely agree with you. I don't know who has repented and turned to Jesus as Lord and Savior and who has not. God does.

 

[DHK]

Thanks for sharing that. He makes the usual dribble about saint worship, inventing purgatory for the purpose of making money, re-sacrificing Christ at every mass, etc.

I am sure that Bob agrees with all that is mentioned here that you call "dribble." Do a search and read his previous posts.

Let me quote to you the Bible again--a verse you are reluctant to comment on:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Bible teaches a gospel of grace--"For by grace are ye saved through faith." It is the only gospel there is. It is received by faith and faith alone. It is provided by grace and grace alone. There are absolutely no works involved in salvation.
Meditate on that verse. If by works, grace is no more grace.

The RCC's version of the gospel is by works--a gospel of works. Salvation by works is another gospel--one by Paul says you are accursed (Gal.1:8)

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

One must choose between grace or works. It is not both. It is one or the other. The RCC has made its choice. They say that salvation is by works. If one determines to continue to follow in this direction, how can they say that they are saved? They are believing a false gospel, a message that cannot save!

 

[lori4dogs]

The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace. You are wrong. This has been discussed ad nauseum. You aren't going to change your position and the Church just doesn't teach what you say it does.

Do you agree with the 'purgatory is a second chance at heaven' `John MacArthur claims the Catholic Church teaches?

You know there are bigots like Jack Chick who publish outright lies about the Catholic Church. I guess they believe the end justifies the means. The books and publications about the supposed 'Fr. Alberto Rivera' show the extent anti-Catholic haters will go to slander the Church. http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p3.asp

Then you got this guy, John MacArthur, making false statements about purgatory. He is either lying or doesn't know what he is talking about. I want to believe the later.

 

[DHK]

The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace. You are wrong. This has been discussed ad nauseum. You aren't going to change your position and the Church just doesn't teach what you say it does.

No, the Catholic Church has never taught salvation by grace.
First it doesn't know what grace is.
Second, it has redefined grace for its own devious purposes.
Third, it says one must is saved by keeping the seven sacraments. Keeping anything is doing something or working. Salvation is not of works.
Baptism is essential for salvation. Baptism is a work.
One must continue to keep the Ten Commandments for salvation. It is a process of doing works.
One can never know for sure if they will go to heaven because they never know if they have done enough good works.
Salvation is not of grace; it is of works in the RCC. It is a works based salvation. There is nothing of grace involved in it.

Grace is redefined in that the RCC will say that holy water is a means of receiving grace, or baptism is a means of receiving grace. See how nonsensical that is? As if H2O can be a means of giving grace??? That belief has as much credence as Hindus being baptized in the Ganges River thinking that the polluted waters of that river will wash away their sins.

If salvation were by grace there would be no need for Purgatory. For by grace your sins would be paid for. Since salvation is by works, one must pay for their sins in purgatory. Jesus didn't do a good enough job on the cross. HIS GRACE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT Thus works are needed.